Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • DraxCucumberSandwichDraxCucumberSandwich United Kingdom
    Posts: 208
    It’s true that watching Bond chase Nick Nack round his cabin with a suitcase isn’t everyone’s idea of spectacle.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,619
    Sir Christopher Lee as a great villain and Britt Ekland in a bikini most of the time are great spectacles for me.
  • Posts: 1,394
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    TWINE is great and I love it.

    Yes! I love it too.TND used to be ny favourite brosnan Bond as its arguably more fun,but as i got older i began to apreciate the more complex TWINE.
    So complex that just about everyone needs to watch it (or make that "endure") several times before they start to even understand the plot regarding the assassination at MI6. No thanks. Convoluted, unrealistic, ridiculous. As a positive: still better than its successor. TND is miles better...and still average at best.

    Unrealistic.Ridiculous.Those are words that come to mind regarding the plot of Skyfall to me.Not to mention Bond surviving being shot ( twice! ) falling from a massive height at high speed into a river and drowning with no explanation!
  • Posts: 7,507
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    TWINE is great and I love it.

    Yes! I love it too.TND used to be ny favourite brosnan Bond as its arguably more fun,but as i got older i began to apreciate the more complex TWINE.
    So complex that just about everyone needs to watch it (or make that "endure") several times before they start to even understand the plot regarding the assassination at MI6. No thanks. Convoluted, unrealistic, ridiculous. As a positive: still better than its successor. TND is miles better...and still average at best.

    Unrealistic.Ridiculous.Those are words that come to mind regarding the plot of Skyfall to me.Not to mention Bond surviving being shot ( twice! ) falling from a massive height at high speed into a river and drowning with no explanation!

    Bond surviving in SF is definitely OTT, but at least it is not as unsensical and ridiculously cartoonish as the bullet in the head which makes its victim "increasingly stronger until the day he dies"... ;)
  • goldenswissroyalegoldenswissroyale Switzerland
    Posts: 4,483
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    Sir Christopher Lee as a great villain and Britt Ekland in a bikini most of the time are great spectacles for me.

    Fair points.
  • Max_The_ParrotMax_The_Parrot ATAC to St Cyril’s
    Posts: 2,426
    TMWTGG doesn't really deserve being called a Bond movie because there isn't enough spectacle. It is like the small child of the other Bond movies. This doesn't mean that I would rank it at the bottom but where are the outstanding scenes here? The island, yes. Maybe the car plane...

    @goldenswissroyale in terms of great moments of spectacle you've got a good point. I'd add the 360 degree barrel turn stunt as still right up there with some of the best stunts in the series, even with the whistle! I also love the whole 'funfair' sequences and the rescue of Bond from the karate school but that's me watching them with my 'kid-tinted glasses' on i.e. I have such fond memories of being really excited by this watching it on TV as a child, that I still get that excited feeling watching as an adult. Being more objective I'd have to discount them now!

    More importantly, does this mean that you are reassessing your 'Bond rankings' and Moonraker is no longer right at the bottom? I live in hope .... :) :D
  • ThunderballThunderball playing Chemin de Fer in a casino, downing Vespers
    edited September 2020 Posts: 814
    TMWTGG doesn't really deserve being called a Bond movie because there isn't enough spectacle. It is like the small child of the other Bond movies. This doesn't mean that I would rank it at the bottom but where are the outstanding scenes here? The island, yes. Maybe the car plane...

    Well... (and I can't believe I'm going to defend TMWTGG a little here, it's in my bottom three Bond films ranking) there were some other entries in the series that were light on action and/or spectacle. It's a clumsy film for other reasons, some of the same problems virtually every Moore-era Bond film has (DAF too). At least the car barrel roll was cool, as was Christopher Lee.

    (I'm gonna get flack for this, but I don't find Ekland very attractive. She is a nuisance in the film for me.)
  • Ekland has grown on me a bit as I've gotten a little older, but she's not a great Bond girl, no.
  • goldenswissroyalegoldenswissroyale Switzerland
    Posts: 4,483
    @Max_The_Parrot yes, the car jump stands out but it is somehow disappointing: it lasts only 3 (?) seconds and it is done so perfect that it feels unreal. I watched it last week with a friend who hadn't seen it before and he didn't believe that it was real. And enough was said about the whistle in other threads...
    It is a nice little movie but not enough for a “real“ bond adventure. I mean, there isn't a real villain (Scaramanga respects Bond and doesn't want to kill him). Goodnight's bottom is more dangerous than Scaramanga and Nick Nack. But this is probably not controversial and I leave it that way. Sorry Max, MR is still my least favoured Eon entry.
  • I don't know how controversial it is among Bond fans, but I'm pretty happy that YOLT was an independent film and not a revenge-themed story that would have followed OHMSS. Is the film perfect? Certainly not, and, while I enjoy all the camp elements, I wouldn't have been against a more grounded narrative, in particular in the second half of the film, and I would certainly have preferred to see the Garden of death on screen, rather than the volcano.

    Still, I find it hard to imagine a faithful adaptation of the novel and, above all, I really like the time capsule that is the movie we finally got; it gives it a special feel that I would be hard-pressed to associate with a more dramatic and depressed revenge-themed narrative.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,289
    In a similar vein, OHMSS is a product of its time. We couldn't--wouldn't--have gotten a completely downer ending (on film) like that other than in 1968-1969, when protests against the war were high and indie films were on the rise.
  • ThunderballThunderball playing Chemin de Fer in a casino, downing Vespers
    Posts: 814
    So, you're saying that OHMSS was made three or four years later, Tracy wouldn't have died at the end, despite the fact that she does in Fleming's novel? I'm not so sure about that. The filmmakers set out to adapt the novel more closely. Assuming that the film would've had the same people working on it were it released another time, I imagine they still would've stuck to the novel.
  • Max_The_ParrotMax_The_Parrot ATAC to St Cyril’s
    Posts: 2,426
    @Max_The_Parrot yes, the car jump stands out but it is somehow disappointing: it lasts only 3 (?) seconds

    I suppose when I watch it, I'm watching the build up to it as well, the 'oh no, Bond's on the wrong side of the river' .... how will he get to the other side? ... and the fact that JW articulates what I'm thinking, including realising at the same time as I do that he's going to jump the bridge. Like I say though this is the 10 year old me watching this!
    :)
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    @Max_The_Parrot yes, the car jump stands out but it is somehow disappointing: it lasts only 3 (?) seconds

    I suppose when I watch it, I'm watching the build up to it as well, the 'oh no, Bond's on the wrong side of the river' .... how will he get to the other side? ... and the fact that JW articulates what I'm thinking, including realising at the same time as I do that he's going to jump the bridge. Like I say though this is the 10 year old me watching this!
    :)

    It is over far to quickly. The jump from different angles in slow motion would surely have been more effective. Far be it from me to tell Guy Hamilton how to direct a scene!
  • edited September 2020 Posts: 1,394
    Ekland has grown on me a bit as I've gotten a little older, but she's not a great Bond girl, no.

    Her character is a nuisance but i think that was intentional.Bond gets pretty fed up with her throughout the film '' JUST HIT EVERY DAMN BUTTON WILL YOU!! ''

    She is extremely hot though,especially in that bikini.

    On a related subject, i dont find Lea Seadoux all that attractive.Not saying shes ugly or anything,she just doesnt do it for me.
  • edited September 2020 Posts: 1,394
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Ekland has grown on me a bit as I've gotten a little older, but she's not a great Bond girl, no.

    Her character is a nuisance but i think that was intentional.Bond gets pretty fed up with her throughout the film '' JUST HIT EVERY DAMN BUTTON WILL YOU!! ''

    She is extremely hot though,especially in that bikini.

    On a related subject,i dont really find Lea Seadoux attractive.Not saying shes ugly or anything its just that she doesnt do it for me.
  • DraxCucumberSandwichDraxCucumberSandwich United Kingdom
    Posts: 208
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    On a related subject, i dont find Lea Seadoux all that attractive.Not saying shes ugly or anything,she just doesnt do it for me.

    Generally, I personallly don’t find Connery’s ladies particularly attractive to myself , apart from Luciana Paluzzi. Ursula Andress, Honor Blackman; Claudine Auger don’t do it for me. Daniela Bianchi is pretty but I don’t find her hot.
    Diana Rigg is stunning in OHMSS and then Roger has an absolute bonanza of amazing beauties in his first three outings - Jane Seymour; Britt Ekland; Maud Adams: Barbara Bach
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    So, you're saying that OHMSS was made three or four years later, Tracy wouldn't have died at the end, despite the fact that she does in Fleming's novel? I'm not so sure about that. The filmmakers set out to adapt the novel more closely. Assuming that the film would've had the same people working on it were it released another time, I imagine they still would've stuck to the novel.

    Specifically it was Peter Hunt that was insistent on sticking close to the novel. In early drafts for OHMSS when it was originally planned to be made as the fourth film, coming after GF, Tracy actually lived at the end. It also began with Bond rescuing Tracy in the ocean by driving his car into and revealing to be a car submarine.

    So it's very clear that EON was very willing to go astray from what Fleming wrote in the novel, given how loosely adapted the films YOLT, DAF, LALD, TMWTGG, TSWLM, MR, OP, and AVTAK were. Only FYEO and TLD were close to faithful adaptations.
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    Posts: 3,262
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Ekland has grown on me a bit as I've gotten a little older, but she's not a great Bond girl, no.

    Her character is a nuisance but i think that was intentional.Bond gets pretty fed up with her throughout the film '' JUST HIT EVERY DAMN BUTTON WILL YOU!! ''

    She is extremely hot though,especially in that bikini.

    Goodnight is the Bond series' answer to the klutzy spy heroines that Stella Stevens and Sharon Tate portrayed in Dean Martin's Matt Helm series. This was made during the comedic era of Bond and Moore's Bond gets annoyed with her onscreen(not unlike Martin's Helm did with the ladies I mentioned) so she never bothered me. I get far more annoyed at Stacey Sutton's antics a decade later.

  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    Her ditziness is what specifically makes Goodnight very unattractive to me, no matter how good she looks in a bikini. I think that kind of act only works for certain characters like Kara where it's not only toned down but that she's also just an ordinary civilian caught up in a big game, whereas Goodnight is supposed to be an MI6 operative.
  • Posts: 2,917
    Yes, it doesn't reflect well on MI6 when some its operatives can barely tie their shoelaces. Professionalism is highly valued in Bond's world--I can't imagine Fleming or the earlier Bond films making a secret service agent so incompetent.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,289
    So, you're saying that OHMSS was made three or four years later, Tracy wouldn't have died at the end, despite the fact that she does in Fleming's novel? I'm not so sure about that. The filmmakers set out to adapt the novel more closely. Assuming that the film would've had the same people working on it were it released another time, I imagine they still would've stuck to the novel.

    Specifically it was Peter Hunt that was insistent on sticking close to the novel. In early drafts for OHMSS when it was originally planned to be made as the fourth film, coming after GF, Tracy actually lived at the end. It also began with Bond rescuing Tracy in the ocean by driving his car into and revealing to be a car submarine.

    So it's very clear that EON was very willing to go astray from what Fleming wrote in the novel, given how loosely adapted the films YOLT, DAF, LALD, TMWTGG, TSWLM, MR, OP, and AVTAK were. Only FYEO and TLD were close to faithful adaptations.

    The late '60s were a time of despair and anti-heroes, and that is reflected in the films (Bonnie and Clyde, Midnight Cowboy, etc.).

    OHMSS benefited by being a product of its time as well, when filmmakers did not shy away from downer endings.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,619
    Mary Goodnight is just another Guy Hamilton/Tom Mackiewicz campy bimbo. An example of them both being on the series too long.
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    Posts: 3,262
    Her ditziness is what specifically makes Goodnight very unattractive to me, no matter how good she looks in a bikini. I think that kind of act only works for certain characters like Kara where it's not only toned down but that she's also just an ordinary civilian caught up in a big game, whereas Goodnight is supposed to be an MI6 operative.
    Revelator wrote: »
    Yes, it doesn't reflect well on MI6 when some its operatives can barely tie their shoelaces. Professionalism is highly valued in Bond's world--I can't imagine Fleming or the earlier Bond films making a secret service agent so incompetent.

    Is Goodnight supposed to be an actual field operative though? I'm under the impression she's supposed to be a secretary or other office employee rather than an actual agent. Also, Scaramanga's villainous plot is on a much milder and lower scale than many others she could've gotten involved in so I'll cut her more slack. My controversial opinion is that Judi Dench's M shows a lot more incompetence in TWINE, getting tricked by Elektra and falling into her clutches when she's supposed to be the actual head of the MI6 organization.

  • Posts: 7,507
    Revelator wrote: »
    Yes, it doesn't reflect well on MI6 when some its operatives can barely tie their shoelaces. Professionalism is highly valued in Bond's world--I can't imagine Fleming or the earlier Bond films making a secret service agent so incompetent.


    In truth I can't imagine Fleming making any character, man or woman, villain or ally, that stupid and incompetent. "Lets laugh looking how stupid she is" was not exactly Fleming's style...
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    I kind of agree with the lack of spectacle in TMWTGG. Hong Kong, in particular is woefully underused as a location. I have been lucky enough to visit it and it's one of the world's truly special cities. Granted it wasn't the metropolis then that is now, but still.

    I would also level that criticism at DAF and LALD. Virtually no spectacle in 3 films in a row.

    No wonder Cubby broke the bank for TSWLM.
  • Posts: 7,507
    Roadphill wrote: »
    I kind of agree with the lack of spectacle in TMWTGG. Hong Kong, in particular is woefully underused as a location. I have been lucky enough to visit it and it's one of the world's truly special cities. Granted it wasn't the metropolis then that is now, but still.

    I would also level that criticism at DAF and LALD. Virtually no spectacle in 3 films in a row.

    No wonder Cubby broke the bank for TSWLM.

    The Hamilton/Mankiewicz films are definitely a dark chapter in Bond history. It was a pretty toxic partnership as far as I am concerned...
  • DraxCucumberSandwichDraxCucumberSandwich United Kingdom
    Posts: 208
    TMWTGG is such an unclassy movie but I can’t help enjoying it.
    Bond makes so many dick moves: shoving the boy off the boat; kicking his opponent in the face at the dojo; turning the gun on the gun maker; shoving Nick Nack in a suitcase; manhandling Andrea to get information.
    And then you’ve Goodnight; Sherrif Pepper; and the worst crime of all is the way the film sets up and plays the incredible corkscrew car jump (I sure am boy)
    Despite all this, I really enjoy the movie, but I’d struggle to explain why
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    jobo wrote: »
    Roadphill wrote: »
    I kind of agree with the lack of spectacle in TMWTGG. Hong Kong, in particular is woefully underused as a location. I have been lucky enough to visit it and it's one of the world's truly special cities. Granted it wasn't the metropolis then that is now, but still.

    I would also level that criticism at DAF and LALD. Virtually no spectacle in 3 films in a row.

    No wonder Cubby broke the bank for TSWLM.

    The Hamilton/Mankiewicz films are definitely a dark chapter in Bond history. It was a pretty toxic partnership as far as I am concerned...

    Yeah, absolutely. I truly dislike DAF, but despite what I said LALD and TMWTGG still have their charms. They really do look cheap compared to many of the previous, and following Bond films, though.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    I honestly like DAF, and to a lesser extent LALD. It's really just TMWTGG that fails for me.
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