Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • I find it hard to really blame Mankiewicz for anything for TMWTGG as he only wrote a first draft and then left. Based on what we know, his script was quite crazy (elephants playing football during the PTS, a Hong Kong film studio owner specializing in martial arts films), but, as we do not have more details, it is difficult to judge. And then, above all, it was centered on the confrontation between Bond and Scaramanga, and did not involve any subplot about the Solex.
  • Posts: 7,507
    I find it hard to really blame Mankiewicz for anything for TMWTGG as he only wrote a first draft and then left. Based on what we know, his script was quite crazy (elephants playing football during the PTS, a Hong Kong film studio owner specializing in martial arts films), but, as we do not have more details, it is difficult to judge. And then, above all, it was centered on the confrontation between Bond and Scaramanga, and did not involve any subplot about the Solex.

    That is interesting. Where did you find this information?
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited September 2020 Posts: 8,182
    TMWTGG was a very rushed film trying to capitalize on the surprise success of Moore's debut. Mankiewicz said he felt burned out on Bond by then which is why he left after working on the first draft. Richard Maibaum was then brought in to do his drafts, but Cubby wasn't too pleased with the results, so he asked Mankiewicz to come back to revise Maibaum's draft. All that pretty much explains why the film felt so schizophrenic at the end.

    I like Mankiewicz a lot, and think he not only did good on DAF and LALD but I especially love his work on SUPERMAN (1978). I do wish he had done more than just the treatments he did for TSWLM and MR, especially if it was to punch up the dialogue.
  • jobo wrote: »
    That is interesting. Where did you find this information?

    From this article in French which chronicles quite exhaustively the first versions of the script:
    https://www.commander007.net/2016/script-lhomme-pistolet-dor-premiere-tentative-de-maibaum-ecrire-moore/

    I think that Matthew Field and Ajay Chowdhury's Some Kind of Hero details some elements from Mankiewicz's draft, which wouldn't be surprising.
  • Posts: 16,154
    I find all four of the Guy Hamilton films extremely watchable. DAF is probably the one I watch the most often.
    Still, I am glad Cubby broke the Hamilton formula and went for more spectacle with SPY.
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    I'm going to dish out what I suspect is a fairly controversial opinion, Goldfinger is my second least favourite Connery Bond film, only beaten by DAF..
  • 007InAction007InAction Australia
    Posts: 2,526
    Roadphill wrote: »
    I'm going to dish out what I suspect is a fairly controversial opinion, Goldfinger is my second least favourite Connery Bond film, only beaten by DAF..

    You are the king of controversy :)
  • Posts: 16,154
    On this thread I think GOLDFINGER being ranked on top is controversial. It does tend to stay at #1 for me.
  • ThunderballThunderball playing Chemin de Fer in a casino, downing Vespers
    edited September 2020 Posts: 814
    GF is a truly great film, but I think it being held up as the end-all, be-all greatest and definitive Bond film for far too long has led to a great deal of backlash, which has affected how many of us rank it. It’s just a shame that so many put up on a pedestal, there by ignoring other entries that are as good or better. For me, I love CR, TB, DN, FRWL and maybe OHMSS more than GF. I still rank it very highly, but I can’t really say the same about its director.
  • Posts: 7,507
    GF is a truly great film, but I think it being held up as the end-all, be-all greatest and definitive Bond film for far too long has led to a great deal of backlash, which has affected how many of us rank it. It’s just a shame that so many put up on a pedestal, there by ignoring other entries that are as good or better. For me, I love CR, TB, DN, FRWL and maybe OHMSS more than GF. I still rank it very highly, but I can’t really say the same about its director.

    That is my sentiment too.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,619
    jobo wrote: »
    GF is a truly great film, but I think it being held up as the end-all, be-all greatest and definitive Bond film for far too long has led to a great deal of backlash, which has affected how many of us rank it. It’s just a shame that so many put up on a pedestal, there by ignoring other entries that are as good or better. For me, I love CR, TB, DN, FRWL and maybe OHMSS more than GF. I still rank it very highly, but I can’t really say the same about its director.

    That is my sentiment too.

    Me three, in terms of its director. In some of the Bond books they say that Peter Hunt saved the film, in the editing.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited September 2020 Posts: 6,289
    Controversial opinion: I don't like FRWL that much. I get that it's important in the series, but it always leaves me cold.

    I do wish they had retained the original ending.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    @echo-- that is indeed controversial.

    I will now fight you to the death.
  • Posts: 1,394
    I quite enjoy the bimbo aspect of Mary Goodnight.I just find her funny in the same way i enjoy Willie Scott being an idiot in Temple Of Doom.Especially these days with PC levels taken to ridiculous extremes.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    Willie Scott makes much more sense as a bimbo because she's supposed to be a high society Hollywood brat that's more worried about breaking her nails.
  • Posts: 1,917
    echo wrote: »
    Controversial opinion: I don't like FRWL that much. I get that it's important in the series, but it always leaves me cold.

    I do wish they had retained the original ending.

    For the longest time, DN and FRWL were down there on my list when I was younger. I think it was when I got the VHS and watched it uncut it really began going up and is one of my tops now. But I can also appreciate why some don't find it as appealing.

    I don't think there's any way they'd have considered using the Fleming ending at that point of the series. But it's funny they used the basis of the fallout of that from the novel directly into the adaptation of DN.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,619
    BT3366 wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    Controversial opinion: I don't like FRWL that much. I get that it's important in the series, but it always leaves me cold.

    I do wish they had retained the original ending.

    For the longest time, DN and FRWL were down there on my list when I was younger. I think it was when I got the VHS and watched it uncut it really began going up and is one of my tops now. But I can also appreciate why some don't find it as appealing.

    I don't think there's any way they'd have considered using the Fleming ending at that point of the series. But it's funny they used the basis of the fallout of that from the novel directly into the adaptation of DN.

    The only thing wrong with FRWL is it’s slow pacing. Once again, Peter Hunt didn’t have a lot of time to edit more properly. If you think about it, Peter Hunt’s inputs into James Bond as a film series are as important as Cubby’s, Harry’s, Richard’s or Terence’s.
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    Posts: 3,262
    echo wrote: »
    OHMSS benefited by being a product of its time as well, when filmmakers did not shy away from downer endings.

    +1. I can't picture a faithful screen adaptation of OHMSS(or at least one that was faithful to its ending) being made anytime during the years 1965-1967 as originally intended. It was the time period of The Man From UNCLE, Derek Flint, Matt Helm and dozen of Eurospy imitators so I don't think UA would've allowed EON to take that risk then. OHMSS benefited greatly from being made after the initial cinematic superspy craze that GF triggered was over.
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    I quite enjoy the bimbo aspect of Mary Goodnight.I just find her funny in the same way i enjoy Willie Scott being an idiot in Temple Of Doom.Especially these days with PC levels taken to ridiculous extremes.

    +1. The inspirations for Goodnight:



    and

  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    Aspiring to be like a low rent Matt Helm flick is kind of sad.
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    GF is a truly great film, but I think it being held up as the end-all, be-all greatest and definitive Bond film for far too long has led to a great deal of backlash, which has affected how many of us rank it. It’s just a shame that so many put up on a pedestal, there by ignoring other entries that are as good or better. For me, I love CR, TB, DN, FRWL and maybe OHMSS more than GF. I still rank it very highly, but I can’t really say the same about its director.
    GF is a truly great film, but I think it being held up as the end-all, be-all greatest and definitive Bond film for far too long has led to a great deal of backlash, which has affected how many of us rank it. It’s just a shame that so many put up on a pedestal, there by ignoring other entries that are as good or better. For me, I love CR, TB, DN, FRWL and maybe OHMSS more than GF. I still rank it very highly, but I can’t really say the same about its director.

    There's quite a few I like more. I have never felt that is the earth shattering classic, it's meant to be. Good, for sure but not great.

    I like all the films you listed more. Add TSWLM, FYEO and maybe even (don't lynch me) GE and TLD..
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    edited September 2020 Posts: 4,619
    https://www.digitalspy.com/movies/a33978987/james-bond-jane-seymour-live-and-let-die-wrong/

    Speaking of Bond movies being of their time. She’s right. Sheriff J.W. Pepper would not be allowed today. I wonder how if the LALD novel would be received, had they been more faithful to the source like OHMSS.
  • Posts: 1,394
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    https://www.digitalspy.com/movies/a33978987/james-bond-jane-seymour-live-and-let-die-wrong/

    Speaking of Bond movies being of their time. She’s right. Sheriff J.W. Pepper would not be allowed today. I wonder how if the LALD novel would be received, had they been more faithful to the source like OHMSS.

    Given the crazy times we are living in right now,im surprised there hasnt been a call to ban LALD from streaming services for its '' problematic '' content! Im just glad that they cant take my blu ray boxset off me.
  • ThunderballThunderball playing Chemin de Fer in a casino, downing Vespers
    Posts: 814
    Roadphill wrote: »
    GF is a truly great film, but I think it being held up as the end-all, be-all greatest and definitive Bond film for far too long has led to a great deal of backlash, which has affected how many of us rank it. It’s just a shame that so many put up on a pedestal, there by ignoring other entries that are as good or better. For me, I love CR, TB, DN, FRWL and maybe OHMSS more than GF. I still rank it very highly, but I can’t really say the same about its director.
    GF is a truly great film, but I think it being held up as the end-all, be-all greatest and definitive Bond film for far too long has led to a great deal of backlash, which has affected how many of us rank it. It’s just a shame that so many put up on a pedestal, there by ignoring other entries that are as good or better. For me, I love CR, TB, DN, FRWL and maybe OHMSS more than GF. I still rank it very highly, but I can’t really say the same about its director.

    There's quite a few I like more. I have never felt that is the earth shattering classic, it's meant to be. Good, for sure but not great.

    I like all the films you listed more. Add TSWLM, FYEO and maybe even (don't lynch me) GE and TLD..

    I personally feel TSWLM is way overrated. It’s a really damn good film, but better than the already too-highly-vaunted GF? Not in a million years (see, I’m the one they’ll hang).
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,619
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    https://www.digitalspy.com/movies/a33978987/james-bond-jane-seymour-live-and-let-die-wrong/

    Speaking of Bond movies being of their time. She’s right. Sheriff J.W. Pepper would not be allowed today. I wonder how if the LALD novel would be received, had they been more faithful to the source like OHMSS.

    Given the crazy times we are living in right now,im surprised there hasnt been a call to ban LALD from streaming services for its '' problematic '' content! Im just glad that they cant take my blu ray boxset off me.

    I agree, a little before the time these racial issues started happening, I read both Ian Fleming and Dynamite Comics version of LALD. Boy, what a few months could have done to the project! In particular with the cultural issues of Dynamite Comics as of now! Dynamite might have had to cancel it or keep delaying it (as usual). Or just moved onto Moonraker. Either way, Mr. Big is the current villain of their storyline right now. Let’s see where this goes.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    Frankly, the only bit that doesn’t hold up today in LALD isn’t the blaxploitation element but that Bond coerces Solitaire into sex by stacking her tarot deck. That’s some of Bond’s more sleevy moments.
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    https://www.digitalspy.com/movies/a33978987/james-bond-jane-seymour-live-and-let-die-wrong/

    Speaking of Bond movies being of their time. She’s right. Sheriff J.W. Pepper would not be allowed today. I wonder how if the LALD novel would be received, had they been more faithful to the source like OHMSS.

    I would be willing to bet Sheriff J.W. Pepper might actually hold up better today. The whole point of his inclusion in LALD was to make a mockery of the US police force, which are known for sadistically brutalizing black people during the civil rights protests. The Mankiewicz family have always been very left leaning.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,114
    Roadphill wrote: »
    GF is a truly great film, but I think it being held up as the end-all, be-all greatest and definitive Bond film for far too long has led to a great deal of backlash, which has affected how many of us rank it. It’s just a shame that so many put up on a pedestal, there by ignoring other entries that are as good or better. For me, I love CR, TB, DN, FRWL and maybe OHMSS more than GF. I still rank it very highly, but I can’t really say the same about its director.
    GF is a truly great film, but I think it being held up as the end-all, be-all greatest and definitive Bond film for far too long has led to a great deal of backlash, which has affected how many of us rank it. It’s just a shame that so many put up on a pedestal, there by ignoring other entries that are as good or better. For me, I love CR, TB, DN, FRWL and maybe OHMSS more than GF. I still rank it very highly, but I can’t really say the same about its director.

    There's quite a few I like more. I have never felt that is the earth shattering classic, it's meant to be. Good, for sure but not great.

    I like all the films you listed more. Add TSWLM, FYEO and maybe even (don't lynch me) GE and TLD..

    I personally feel TSWLM is way overrated. It’s a really damn good film, but better than the already too-highly-vaunted GF? Not in a million years (see, I’m the one they’ll hang).

    You'll both be spared my friends ;) . I prefer about 11 Bond films over CR and about 4 or 5 more over SF.
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    Roadphill wrote: »
    GF is a truly great film, but I think it being held up as the end-all, be-all greatest and definitive Bond film for far too long has led to a great deal of backlash, which has affected how many of us rank it. It’s just a shame that so many put up on a pedestal, there by ignoring other entries that are as good or better. For me, I love CR, TB, DN, FRWL and maybe OHMSS more than GF. I still rank it very highly, but I can’t really say the same about its director.
    GF is a truly great film, but I think it being held up as the end-all, be-all greatest and definitive Bond film for far too long has led to a great deal of backlash, which has affected how many of us rank it. It’s just a shame that so many put up on a pedestal, there by ignoring other entries that are as good or better. For me, I love CR, TB, DN, FRWL and maybe OHMSS more than GF. I still rank it very highly, but I can’t really say the same about its director.

    There's quite a few I like more. I have never felt that is the earth shattering classic, it's meant to be. Good, for sure but not great.

    I like all the films you listed more. Add TSWLM, FYEO and maybe even (don't lynch me) GE and TLD..

    I personally feel TSWLM is way overrated. It’s a really damn good film, but better than the already too-highly-vaunted GF? Not in a million years (see, I’m the one they’ll hang).

    Il do it myself!! Ha, just kidding. TSWLM is my favourite Bond film, so naturally I will defend it to the hilt. I know there are a fair few on here that share your opinion, though.
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Roadphill wrote: »
    GF is a truly great film, but I think it being held up as the end-all, be-all greatest and definitive Bond film for far too long has led to a great deal of backlash, which has affected how many of us rank it. It’s just a shame that so many put up on a pedestal, there by ignoring other entries that are as good or better. For me, I love CR, TB, DN, FRWL and maybe OHMSS more than GF. I still rank it very highly, but I can’t really say the same about its director.
    GF is a truly great film, but I think it being held up as the end-all, be-all greatest and definitive Bond film for far too long has led to a great deal of backlash, which has affected how many of us rank it. It’s just a shame that so many put up on a pedestal, there by ignoring other entries that are as good or better. For me, I love CR, TB, DN, FRWL and maybe OHMSS more than GF. I still rank it very highly, but I can’t really say the same about its director.

    There's quite a few I like more. I have never felt that is the earth shattering classic, it's meant to be. Good, for sure but not great.

    I like all the films you listed more. Add TSWLM, FYEO and maybe even (don't lynch me) GE and TLD..

    I personally feel TSWLM is way overrated. It’s a really damn good film, but better than the already too-highly-vaunted GF? Not in a million years (see, I’m the one they’ll hang).

    You'll both be spared my friends ;) . I prefer about 11 Bond films over CR and about 4 or 5 more over SF.

    I'm with you on SF. I think the first half is incredible, but as soon as they leave Silva's island, it loses it, for me.

    CR on the other hand, was superb. Its in my top 6 or 7. Which means I love it.
  • Posts: 15,114
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    BT3366 wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    Controversial opinion: I don't like FRWL that much. I get that it's important in the series, but it always leaves me cold.

    I do wish they had retained the original ending.

    For the longest time, DN and FRWL were down there on my list when I was younger. I think it was when I got the VHS and watched it uncut it really began going up and is one of my tops now. But I can also appreciate why some don't find it as appealing.

    I don't think there's any way they'd have considered using the Fleming ending at that point of the series. But it's funny they used the basis of the fallout of that from the novel directly into the adaptation of DN.

    The only thing wrong with FRWL is it’s slow pacing. Once again, Peter Hunt didn’t have a lot of time to edit more properly. If you think about it, Peter Hunt’s inputs into James Bond as a film series are as important as Cubby’s, Harry’s, Richard’s or Terence’s.

    I don't mind the slow pacing at all. I love a slow burning thriller with quiet moments. My controversial opinion : this is how I know a Bond movie or indeed any movie succeeds. How it deals with the quiet moments. Other controversial opinion : the game of golf in GF is the best sequence of the film and maybe the most suspenseful part.
  • edited September 2020 Posts: 2,163
    @Ludovico I absolutely agree with that, and when looking back over the Craig era (as that is the one we’re currently in), its the little character moments that stick with me the most.

    Casino Royale

    - Bond washing himself up after the Obanno stairwell fight
    - Bond and Vesper in the shower scene
    - Him coming to terms with her death after trying to revive her in Venice

    Quantum of Solace

    - Mathis and Bond chatting on the plane
    - Bond and Camille in the sink hole
    - Bond and Camille’s final chat in the car.

    Skyfall

    - Bond lazing around on the beach, a broken man.
    - Bond’s evaluation, and subsequent failing
    - Bond and M’s journey to Skyfall

    Spectre

    - Bond and Swann in the hotel room.


    For all the wizz bang wallop pyrotechnics of the Craig era, its the character moments that resonate with me the most.
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