Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    echo wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    They also liked David Arnold’s work, so it’s not like they know any better.

    I think TND was a vast improvement, so I tend to agree with them personally. I love Arnold’s work on CR and QoS, he’s certainly a worthy successor to Barry IMO.

    Plus they’ve made millions of pounds from the franchise. So personally, I suggest they do know better. Proven experts in fact.

    I agree. I like Serra's score myself (or, at least most of it!) but they were right to get Arnold when they did and he did good work for them for the next five films.

    Arnold was the best thing to happen to the Bond series in the 90's. Then Daniel Craig in the 00's..... :D

    Dame Judi would like a word with you.

    Here’s another controversial opinion.

    I could have done without Dench’s female M. I prefer Lee, Brown and Fiennes. Obviously Lee being the best by a country mile.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited October 2020 Posts: 8,216
    Brown was a terrible M, I felt. I know Lee had set the bar quite high but I felt nothing from Brown. Granted, he only had a few films to do....well, anything - but M and Bond always had a relationship of mutual professional respect, and I don't think Brown gave anything to either of his co-stars that felt like anything less than contempt.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,583
    Revelator wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I think most of us would agree that in the Classic Era George Martin's scores is the one oddball that can stand proudly with Barry's work.

    I think that is a safe assertion to make. I would also list Conti's score for FYEO, but I know that is a genuinely controversial opinion!

    Conti is the reason why FYEO ranks so low. His music works well for Rocky but not 007. I do enjoy Hamlich for TSWLM but the best non Barry is easily George Martin for LALD
  • edited October 2020 Posts: 1,310
    Brown was a terrible M, I felt. I know Lee had set the bar quite high but I felt nothing from Brown. Granted, he only had a few films to do....well, anything - but M and Bond always had a relationship of mutual professional respect, and I don't think Brown gave anything to either of his co-stars that felt like anything less than contempt.

    Robert Brown a ‘TERRIBLE’ M? Surely that’s a bit of a hyperbole, no? To each his own, of course, but I thought Brown was solid in the role. I prefer Brown to Fiennes, who I feel has been somewhat wasted in his films (particularly in Spectre).
  • Agent_Zero_OneAgent_Zero_One Ireland
    edited October 2020 Posts: 554
    Brown was a terrible M, I felt. I know Lee had set the bar quite high but I felt nothing from Brown. Granted, he only had a few films to do....well, anything - but M and Bond always had a relationship of mutual professional respect, and I don't think Brown gave anything to either of his co-stars that felt like anything less than contempt.
    I always thought he was a bit too soft with Moore. IMO him and Dalton worked well in TLD, but in LTK there was just straight up bitterness, which didn't work.
  • edited October 2020 Posts: 1,394
    suavejmf wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    They also liked David Arnold’s work, so it’s not like they know any better.

    I think TND was a vast improvement, so I tend to agree with them personally. I love Arnold’s work on CR and QoS, he’s certainly a worthy successor to Barry IMO.

    Plus they’ve made millions of pounds from the franchise. So personally, I suggest they do know better. Proven experts in fact.

    I agree. I like Serra's score myself (or, at least most of it!) but they were right to get Arnold when they did and he did good work for them for the next five films.

    Arnold was the best thing to happen to the Bond series in the 90's. Then Daniel Craig in the 00's..... :D

    Dame Judi would like a word with you.

    Here’s another controversial opinion.

    I could have done without Dench’s female M. I prefer Lee, Brown and Fiennes. Obviously Lee being the best by a country mile.

    I dont think thats very controversial.Iv seen many comment here that Dench was overused in the Bond films she was in ( Particularly the Craig entries ).M should just be there to give Bond a mission and make the odd appearance but the creators contrived to get Dench;s M as much screen time as possible just because shes DAME Judi Dench.I was glad when she was killed off.

    Geez,even being dead didnt stop them from inserting her into Spectre!
  • edited October 2020 Posts: 2,917
    Brown was a terrible M, I felt. I know Lee had set the bar quite high but I felt nothing from Brown...I don't think Brown gave anything to either of his co-stars that felt like anything less than contempt.

    Agreed. Brown seemed more like a querulous, petty bureaucrat than an old navy man who commanded Bond's respect and devotion.
    Conti is the reason why FYEO ranks so low. His music works well for Rocky but not 007.

    I think his score had the right amount of pizazz, glitz, and flair for Bond, especially considering the either lackluster or sedate scores from the films bracketing FYEO. Conti made up for this with a larger helping of melody and rhythm.
  • Posts: 16,154
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    They also liked David Arnold’s work, so it’s not like they know any better.

    I think TND was a vast improvement, so I tend to agree with them personally. I love Arnold’s work on CR and QoS, he’s certainly a worthy successor to Barry IMO.

    Plus they’ve made millions of pounds from the franchise. So personally, I suggest they do know better. Proven experts in fact.

    I agree. I like Serra's score myself (or, at least most of it!) but they were right to get Arnold when they did and he did good work for them for the next five films.

    Arnold was the best thing to happen to the Bond series in the 90's. Then Daniel Craig in the 00's..... :D

    Dame Judi would like a word with you.

    Here’s another controversial opinion.

    I could have done without Dench’s female M. I prefer Lee, Brown and Fiennes. Obviously Lee being the best by a country mile.

    I dont think thats very controversial.Iv seen many comment here that Dench was overused in the Bond films she was in ( Particularly the Craig entries ).M should just be there to give Bond a mission and make the odd appearance but the creators contrived to get Dench;s M as much screen time as possible just because shes DAME Judi Dench.I was glad when she was killed off.

    Geez,even being dead didnt stop them from inserting her into Spectre!

    I prefer Lee and Brown to Dench.

    I'd rather just see Bond work alone rather than having M constantly guide Bond through his earpiece as though he needs training wheels.

    Still Judi Dench did a superb job regardless. I just prefer her M in the Brosnan era over Craig.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    SJK91 wrote: »
    Robert Brown a ‘TERRIBLE’ M? Surely that’s a bit of a hyperbole, no?

    Not in this thread, no.
    I always thought he was a bit too soft with Moore. IMO him and Dalton worked well in TLD, but in LTK there was just straight up bitterness, which didn't work.

    Interesting. Granted the last couple of Moore films are my least watched films in the series (along with DAF) so perhaps my memory is tricking me, but I found Brown and Dalton a big mismatch in both films - it being more obvious in LTK due to Bond going rogue.

    I think @Revelator's description of him as a petty bureaucrat is pretty accurate.

    Put it this way, I could very easily see Bernard Lee taking Sean Connery or Roger Moore to the Blades social club, but I definitely couldn't see Brown doing that for either Moore or Dalton.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,620
    suavejmf wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    They also liked David Arnold’s work, so it’s not like they know any better.

    I think TND was a vast improvement, so I tend to agree with them personally. I love Arnold’s work on CR and QoS, he’s certainly a worthy successor to Barry IMO.

    Plus they’ve made millions of pounds from the franchise. So personally, I suggest they do know better. Proven experts in fact.

    I agree. I like Serra's score myself (or, at least most of it!) but they were right to get Arnold when they did and he did good work for them for the next five films.

    Arnold was the best thing to happen to the Bond series in the 90's. Then Daniel Craig in the 00's..... :D

    Dame Judi would like a word with you.

    Here’s another controversial opinion.

    I could have done without Dench’s female M. I prefer Lee, Brown and Fiennes. Obviously Lee being the best by a country mile.

    I agree, but I feel we’ve never got a bad M. The reason Judi got so much screen time was she got really big in stardom during her time. It’s just that the “Bond leaves MI6 in part because of her” REALLY got old. I didn’t pity her when she died in SF. She knew her job had risks. I enjoyed Mallory more in SF, as he was in and out the right amount of time.
  • Put it this way, I could very easily see Bernard Lee taking Sean Connery or Roger Moore to the Blades social club, but I definitely couldn't see Brown doing that for either Moore or Dalton.
    While I agree with you about Moore, I'm more inclined to imagine such a moment with Dalton. The relationship maintained by his Bond with Brown's M, especially in TLD, always seemed convincing to me. It must be the age difference, but Brown was never able to establish himself as Moore's hierarchical superior, effectively appearing as a bureaucrat of about the same age, while with a younger costar (Dalton), this superiority is all in all natural.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    They also liked David Arnold’s work, so it’s not like they know any better.

    I think TND was a vast improvement, so I tend to agree with them personally. I love Arnold’s work on CR and QoS, he’s certainly a worthy successor to Barry IMO.

    Plus they’ve made millions of pounds from the franchise. So personally, I suggest they do know better. Proven experts in fact.

    I agree. I like Serra's score myself (or, at least most of it!) but they were right to get Arnold when they did and he did good work for them for the next five films.

    Arnold was the best thing to happen to the Bond series in the 90's. Then Daniel Craig in the 00's..... :D

    Dame Judi would like a word with you.

    Here’s another controversial opinion.

    I could have done without Dench’s female M. I prefer Lee, Brown and Fiennes. Obviously Lee being the best by a country mile.

    I dont think thats very controversial.Iv seen many comment here that Dench was overused in the Bond films she was in ( Particularly the Craig entries ).M should just be there to give Bond a mission and make the odd appearance but the creators contrived to get Dench;s M as much screen time as possible just because shes DAME Judi Dench.I was glad when she was killed off.

    Geez,even being dead didnt stop them from inserting her into Spectre!

    Agreed.

    Made worse by Rory Kinnear’s spineless and bland portrayal of Bill Tanner tagging along everywhere. He’s nothing like the Bill Tanner of the books and his portrayal is utterly forgettable.
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    Might be starting a new topic here, but one thing I can never understand/forgive about the Craig era is how each film ends with some sort of emotional closure, only for them to inexplicably make the decision to open up the next storyline with the wounds/story threads still hanging.

    CR and SF end perfectly, and could have taken us into an exciting new era with Craig's Bond let loose to do his thing. Except in each film he is over laded by baggage from the previous film (SF is the closest thing to just letting him get on with it, and even then he has to contend with coming back from the dead and dealing with his relationship to M).

    It's the main reason I am not really looking forward to NTTD (just as well, it turns out!).

    I don't think I will ever be able to look at this era as anything other than a lost opportunity. Despite the popularity of Craig and the commercial success, I still feel like each film has been compromised, heavily laden with baggage, and feels somehow dragged down, as if Bond himself is operating with one hand tied behind his back.
  • Agent_Zero_OneAgent_Zero_One Ireland
    edited October 2020 Posts: 554
    Very good posts, @Herr_Stockmann and @FatherValentine. And now, time for a controversial take of my own:



    I like Rory Kinnear as Tanner.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Might be starting a new topic here, but one thing I can never understand/forgive about the Craig era is how each film ends with some sort of emotional closure, only for them to inexplicably make the decision to open up the next storyline with the wounds/story threads still hanging.

    CR and SF end perfectly, and could have taken us into an exciting new era with Craig's Bond let loose to do his thing. Except in each film he is over laded by baggage from the previous film (SF is the closest thing to just letting him get on with it, and even then he has to contend with coming back from the dead and dealing with his relationship to M).

    It's the main reason I am not really looking forward to NTTD (just as well, it turns out!).

    I don't think I will ever be able to look at this era as anything other than a lost opportunity. Despite the popularity of Craig and the commercial success, I still feel like each film has been compromised, heavily laden with baggage, and feels somehow dragged down, as if Bond himself is operating with one hand tied behind his back.

    Agreed. Albeit, I like the QoS continuity, but not the Step Brother...link all the films ‘bolted on’ rubbish from SP.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Very good posts, @Herr_Stockmann and @FatherValentine. And now, time for a controversial take of my own:



    I like Rory Kinnear as Tanner.

    What do you like about him?
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Might be starting a new topic here, but one thing I can never understand/forgive about the Craig era is how each film ends with some sort of emotional closure, only for them to inexplicably make the decision to open up the next storyline with the wounds/story threads still hanging.

    CR and SF end perfectly, and could have taken us into an exciting new era with Craig's Bond let loose to do his thing. Except in each film he is over laded by baggage from the previous film (SF is the closest thing to just letting him get on with it, and even then he has to contend with coming back from the dead and dealing with his relationship to M).

    It's the main reason I am not really looking forward to NTTD (just as well, it turns out!).

    I don't think I will ever be able to look at this era as anything other than a lost opportunity. Despite the popularity of Craig and the commercial success, I still feel like each film has been compromised, heavily laden with baggage, and feels somehow dragged down, as if Bond himself is operating with one hand tied behind his back.

    Agreed. Albeit, I like the QoS continuity, but not the Step Brother...link all the films ‘bolted on’ rubbish from SP.

    Yes I quite like how QoS starts. But there was never any real need to drag him down with all the emotional baggage. "The bitch is dead" should have been the last word on Vesper imo.

    But literally all four films have used their final images to draw a line under what has gone before...only to take two steps backwards with the next film.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Might be starting a new topic here, but one thing I can never understand/forgive about the Craig era is how each film ends with some sort of emotional closure, only for them to inexplicably make the decision to open up the next storyline with the wounds/story threads still hanging.

    CR and SF end perfectly, and could have taken us into an exciting new era with Craig's Bond let loose to do his thing. Except in each film he is over laded by baggage from the previous film (SF is the closest thing to just letting him get on with it, and even then he has to contend with coming back from the dead and dealing with his relationship to M).

    It's the main reason I am not really looking forward to NTTD (just as well, it turns out!).

    I don't think I will ever be able to look at this era as anything other than a lost opportunity. Despite the popularity of Craig and the commercial success, I still feel like each film has been compromised, heavily laden with baggage, and feels somehow dragged down, as if Bond himself is operating with one hand tied behind his back.

    Agreed. Albeit, I like the QoS continuity, but not the Step Brother...link all the films ‘bolted on’ rubbish from SP.

    Yes I quite like how QoS starts. But there was never any real need to drag him down with all the emotional baggage. "The bitch is dead" should have been the last word on Vesper imo.

    But literally all four films have used their final images to draw a line under what has gone before...only to take two steps backwards with the next film.

    True. The annoying gunbarrel in the wrong place should have ended with CR or at worst QoS as well.
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    That opinion is surely not controversial at all!
  • edited October 2020 Posts: 17,753
    Someone on Twitter retweeted this, and that made me think of a controversial opinion: Although OHMSS, TB and FRWL rank at the very top of my list, I tend to prefer a more funny Bond in general (in the films that is).

  • One thing I can never understand/forgive about the Craig era is how each film ends with some sort of emotional closure, only for them to inexplicably make the decision to open up the next storyline with the wounds/story threads still hanging.

    CR and SF end perfectly, and could have taken us into an exciting new era with Craig's Bond let loose to do his thing. Except in each film he is over laded by baggage from the previous film (SF is the closest thing to just letting him get on with it, and even then he has to contend with coming back from the dead and dealing with his relationship to M).

    I completely agree with you on the problem posed by this tendency to reopen the closed emotional issue, and above all to reiterate a development already concluded, by starting again from zero. As much as I think it is normal that there are wounds, inherited from the previous mission, particularly in the case of QoS, the execution in itself is incomprehensible. Regarding Forster's movie, it's natural that Bond is still marked by the death of Vesper, what is less is that he acts like the character he was at the beginning of CR, and not the man he became at the end of this adventure.

    I might be wrong, but the use of Fleming's title would have suggested that Bond had become a cold and dehumanized agent, the opposite of the violent man that he is, purely driven by his emotions. There, his story arc is the same than in the previous movie, learning to be less reckless and more professional. It would have been much more interesting to have the classic portrayal of Bond, glimpsed at the end of CR, but taken to a climax in his coldness. Not reckless, but dehumanized. The character would therefore have learned to have compassion again, something he lacked to fully become the classic Bond.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited October 2020 Posts: 7,114
    Concerning Robert Brown, I did enjoy his M. Bernard Lee will always be my favourite, but Brown did a fine job I think. I liked his chemistry with Dalton. The country club exchange is a highlight. Also liked his performance in OP: 'You had no business bidding for that egg.'

    I'd certainly put him on par with Dench and I'd take him over Fiennes any day. Stil though, I don't think we ever got a bad M. They've all been good overall.
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    One thing I can never understand/forgive about the Craig era is how each film ends with some sort of emotional closure, only for them to inexplicably make the decision to open up the next storyline with the wounds/story threads still hanging.

    CR and SF end perfectly, and could have taken us into an exciting new era with Craig's Bond let loose to do his thing. Except in each film he is over laded by baggage from the previous film (SF is the closest thing to just letting him get on with it, and even then he has to contend with coming back from the dead and dealing with his relationship to M).

    I completely agree with you on the problem posed by this tendency to reopen the closed emotional issue, and above all to reiterate a development already concluded, by starting again from zero. As much as I think it is normal that there are wounds, inherited from the previous mission, particularly in the case of QoS, the execution in itself is incomprehensible. Regarding Forster's movie, it's natural that Bond is still marked by the death of Vesper, what is less is that he acts like the character he was at the beginning of CR, and not the man he became at the end of this adventure.

    I might be wrong, but the use of Fleming's title would have suggested that Bond had become a cold and dehumanized agent, the opposite of the violent man that he is, purely driven by his emotions. There, his story arc is the same than in the previous movie, learning to be less reckless and more professional. It would have been much more interesting to have the classic portrayal of Bond, glimpsed at the end of CR, but taken to a climax in his coldness. Not reckless, but dehumanized. The character would therefore have learned to have compassion again, something he lacked to fully become the classic Bond.

    Yes, I think that's the issue. I don't have problems with how Craig plays the role. I just think it is almost pointless retreading the same character trajectory in each film. With a virtually identical "I'm back and fully restored!' ending in each film that is tacked on and takes place the day after the main events.
  • Agent_Zero_OneAgent_Zero_One Ireland
    edited October 2020 Posts: 554
    One thing I can never understand/forgive about the Craig era is how each film ends with some sort of emotional closure, only for them to inexplicably make the decision to open up the next storyline with the wounds/story threads still hanging.

    CR and SF end perfectly, and could have taken us into an exciting new era with Craig's Bond let loose to do his thing. Except in each film he is over laded by baggage from the previous film (SF is the closest thing to just letting him get on with it, and even then he has to contend with coming back from the dead and dealing with his relationship to M).

    I completely agree with you on the problem posed by this tendency to reopen the closed emotional issue, and above all to reiterate a development already concluded, by starting again from zero. As much as I think it is normal that there are wounds, inherited from the previous mission, particularly in the case of QoS, the execution in itself is incomprehensible. Regarding Forster's movie, it's natural that Bond is still marked by the death of Vesper, what is less is that he acts like the character he was at the beginning of CR, and not the man he became at the end of this adventure.

    I might be wrong, but the use of Fleming's title would have suggested that Bond had become a cold and dehumanized agent, the opposite of the violent man that he is, purely driven by his emotions. There, his story arc is the same than in the previous movie, learning to be less reckless and more professional. It would have been much more interesting to have the classic portrayal of Bond, glimpsed at the end of CR, but taken to a climax in his coldness. Not reckless, but dehumanized. The character would therefore have learned to have compassion again, something he lacked to fully become the classic Bond.

    Yes, I think that's the issue. I don't have problems with how Craig plays the role. I just think it is almost pointless retreading the same character trajectory in each film. With a virtually identical "I'm back and fully restored!' ending in each film that is tacked on and takes place the day after the main events.
    +1. In particular, as much as I love the coda of SF, the film overall would've been far more effective if there was another movie in 2010, where we actually got to see Bond at his peak in a standalone story. As it stands, we go from 'new agent with a lot to learn' to 'burnt out veteran' in the span of one entry.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,290
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Might be starting a new topic here, but one thing I can never understand/forgive about the Craig era is how each film ends with some sort of emotional closure, only for them to inexplicably make the decision to open up the next storyline with the wounds/story threads still hanging.

    CR and SF end perfectly, and could have taken us into an exciting new era with Craig's Bond let loose to do his thing. Except in each film he is over laded by baggage from the previous film (SF is the closest thing to just letting him get on with it, and even then he has to contend with coming back from the dead and dealing with his relationship to M).

    It's the main reason I am not really looking forward to NTTD (just as well, it turns out!).

    I don't think I will ever be able to look at this era as anything other than a lost opportunity. Despite the popularity of Craig and the commercial success, I still feel like each film has been compromised, heavily laden with baggage, and feels somehow dragged down, as if Bond himself is operating with one hand tied behind his back.

    Agreed. Albeit, I like the QoS continuity, but not the Step Brother...link all the films ‘bolted on’ rubbish from SP.

    Yes I quite like how QoS starts. But there was never any real need to drag him down with all the emotional baggage. "The bitch is dead" should have been the last word on Vesper imo.

    But literally all four films have used their final images to draw a line under what has gone before...only to take two steps backwards with the next film.

    To be fair, "the bitch is dead" wasn't Fleming's last word on Vesper.

    A lot of people simply don't like Dench as M because she's female and his boss. Pure sexism. She's clearly a better actor than any of the others who portrayed M, including Lee. Fiennes is the only one who comes close to Dench in acting ability.
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    echo wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Might be starting a new topic here, but one thing I can never understand/forgive about the Craig era is how each film ends with some sort of emotional closure, only for them to inexplicably make the decision to open up the next storyline with the wounds/story threads still hanging.

    CR and SF end perfectly, and could have taken us into an exciting new era with Craig's Bond let loose to do his thing. Except in each film he is over laded by baggage from the previous film (SF is the closest thing to just letting him get on with it, and even then he has to contend with coming back from the dead and dealing with his relationship to M).

    It's the main reason I am not really looking forward to NTTD (just as well, it turns out!).

    I don't think I will ever be able to look at this era as anything other than a lost opportunity. Despite the popularity of Craig and the commercial success, I still feel like each film has been compromised, heavily laden with baggage, and feels somehow dragged down, as if Bond himself is operating with one hand tied behind his back.

    Agreed. Albeit, I like the QoS continuity, but not the Step Brother...link all the films ‘bolted on’ rubbish from SP.

    Yes I quite like how QoS starts. But there was never any real need to drag him down with all the emotional baggage. "The bitch is dead" should have been the last word on Vesper imo.

    But literally all four films have used their final images to draw a line under what has gone before...only to take two steps backwards with the next film.

    To be fair, "the bitch is dead" wasn't Fleming's last word on Vesper.

    A lot of people simply don't like Dench as M because she's female and his boss. Pure sexism. She's clearly a better actor than any of the others who portrayed M, including Lee. Fiennes is the only one who comes close to Dench in acting ability.

    Can't remember who said it on these boards, but they wrote that Bond's demons should be like a scar - not an open wound. Craig's Bond barely mentions Vesper, or any of his demons to be fair, it's just that all the other characters keep going on about them.

    Fleming gets used as a blunt instrument on here to help people win arguments. If Fleming has written something, they bring it up and say 'here, this is what Fleming does, so everything that resembles it is justified'. And if something from the movies goes against Fleming but that they happen to like, they say 'Fleming is outdated', 'the movies are different', or 'we need to move on and reflect the times'. You've only got to go on the 'who could be Bond' board whenever the prospect of a non-white Bond turns up. You see that argument played out again and again.

    I don't think many of us would particularly relish some of the racial and ethnic discussions the books engage in from time to time, so clearly Fleming's choices have limits.

    Fleming for me is the touchstone for the character traits, and overall mood of the Bond universe. But some of what he wrote should remain in the books.

    Fleming is a good guide. Perhaps the only guide. But it is clearly a balancing act. Vesper doesn't dominate Live and Let Die, Moonraker, or Diamonds are Forever. Can't remember if she is mentioned in those books. Probably at some point, but it's not at the forefront.

    I don't think you are in any position really to decide people's motives for not liking a character or actor. It could just as easily be turned back on you and claimed that you only like Dench because she's a woman.

    I like Dench as an actor and her portrayal as M (I think it is one of the strongest elements of the Craig and Brosnan films), but I have no insight to determine the motifs of those who don't like her turn as M.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Revelator wrote: »
    None of the post-Barry scores after LTK have been memorable, in my unhumble opinion. And even Kamen's score wasn't all it could have been.

    I pretty much agree. I do enjoy what Arnold did with the films, but I wouldn't call any of it exceptionally "memorable". And the rest is a joke. I think most of us would agree that in the Classic Era George Martin's scores is the one oddball that can stand proudly with Barry's work.

    I don’t like Martin’s work in LALD to be honest. Of all the non-Barry scores it’s probably the second worst soundtrack of the series only behind Monty Norman’s original score. There’s so many times in the movie where the music just BLARES unnecessarily like when Rosie sneaks in Bond’s cabin.

    Also Robert Brown as M sucks.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    edited October 2020 Posts: 5,131
    echo wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Might be starting a new topic here, but one thing I can never understand/forgive about the Craig era is how each film ends with some sort of emotional closure, only for them to inexplicably make the decision to open up the next storyline with the wounds/story threads still hanging.

    CR and SF end perfectly, and could have taken us into an exciting new era with Craig's Bond let loose to do his thing. Except in each film he is over laded by baggage from the previous film (SF is the closest thing to just letting him get on with it, and even then he has to contend with coming back from the dead and dealing with his relationship to M).

    It's the main reason I am not really looking forward to NTTD (just as well, it turns out!).

    I don't think I will ever be able to look at this era as anything other than a lost opportunity. Despite the popularity of Craig and the commercial success, I still feel like each film has been compromised, heavily laden with baggage, and feels somehow dragged down, as if Bond himself is operating with one hand tied behind his back.

    Agreed. Albeit, I like the QoS continuity, but not the Step Brother...link all the films ‘bolted on’ rubbish from SP.

    Yes I quite like how QoS starts. But there was never any real need to drag him down with all the emotional baggage. "The bitch is dead" should have been the last word on Vesper imo.

    But literally all four films have used their final images to draw a line under what has gone before...only to take two steps backwards with the next film.

    To be fair, "the bitch is dead" wasn't Fleming's last word on Vesper.

    A lot of people simply don't like Dench as M because she's female and his boss. Pure sexism. She's clearly a better actor than any of the others who portrayed M, including Lee. Fiennes is the only one who comes close to Dench in acting ability.
    echo wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Might be starting a new topic here, but one thing I can never understand/forgive about the Craig era is how each film ends with some sort of emotional closure, only for them to inexplicably make the decision to open up the next storyline with the wounds/story threads still hanging.

    CR and SF end perfectly, and could have taken us into an exciting new era with Craig's Bond let loose to do his thing. Except in each film he is over laded by baggage from the previous film (SF is the closest thing to just letting him get on with it, and even then he has to contend with coming back from the dead and dealing with his relationship to M).

    It's the main reason I am not really looking forward to NTTD (just as well, it turns out!).

    I don't think I will ever be able to look at this era as anything other than a lost opportunity. Despite the popularity of Craig and the commercial success, I still feel like each film has been compromised, heavily laden with baggage, and feels somehow dragged down, as if Bond himself is operating with one hand tied behind his back.

    Agreed. Albeit, I like the QoS continuity, but not the Step Brother...link all the films ‘bolted on’ rubbish from SP.

    Yes I quite like how QoS starts. But there was never any real need to drag him down with all the emotional baggage. "The bitch is dead" should have been the last word on Vesper imo.

    But literally all four films have used their final images to draw a line under what has gone before...only to take two steps backwards with the next film.

    To be fair, "the bitch is dead" wasn't Fleming's last word on Vesper.

    A lot of people simply don't like Dench as M because she's female and his boss. Pure sexism. She's clearly a better actor than any of the others who portrayed M, including Lee. Fiennes is the only one who comes close to Dench in acting ability.

    Can't remember who said it on these boards, but they wrote that Bond's demons should be like a scar - not an open wound. Craig's Bond barely mentions Vesper, or any of his demons to be fair, it's just that all the other characters keep going on about them.

    Fleming gets used as a blunt instrument on here to help people win arguments. If Fleming has written something, they bring it up and say 'here, this is what Fleming does, so everything that resembles it is justified'. And if something from the movies goes against Fleming but that they happen to like, they say 'Fleming is outdated', 'the movies are different', or 'we need to move on and reflect the times'. You've only got to go on the 'who could be Bond' board whenever the prospect of a non-white Bond turns up. You see that argument played out again and again.

    I don't think many of us would particularly relish some of the racial and ethnic discussions the books engage in from time to time, so clearly Fleming's choices have limits.

    Fleming for me is the touchstone for the character traits, and overall mood of the Bond universe. But some of what he wrote should remain in the books.

    Fleming is a good guide. Perhaps the only guide. But it is clearly a balancing act. Vesper doesn't dominate Live and Let Die, Moonraker, or Diamonds are Forever. Can't remember if she is mentioned in those books. Probably at some point, but it's not at the forefront.

    I don't think you are in any position really to decide people's motives for not liking a character or actor. It could just as easily be turned back on you and claimed that you only like Dench because she's a woman.

    I like Dench as an actor and her portrayal as M (I think it is one of the strongest elements of the Craig and Brosnan films), but I have no insight to determine the motifs of those who don't like her turn as M.

    Vesper is mentioned in the DAF novel indirectly. Bond is unserved by a song that reminds him of her.

    I don’t particularly like the female M because it changes Fleming’s character and tradition for no apparent reason other than a ‘stunt’ to be PC and reflect the real MI6.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    That opinion is surely not controversial at all!

    True. I was agreeing with you and expanding on the point.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    suavejmf wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Might be starting a new topic here, but one thing I can never understand/forgive about the Craig era is how each film ends with some sort of emotional closure, only for them to inexplicably make the decision to open up the next storyline with the wounds/story threads still hanging.

    CR and SF end perfectly, and could have taken us into an exciting new era with Craig's Bond let loose to do his thing. Except in each film he is over laded by baggage from the previous film (SF is the closest thing to just letting him get on with it, and even then he has to contend with coming back from the dead and dealing with his relationship to M).

    It's the main reason I am not really looking forward to NTTD (just as well, it turns out!).

    I don't think I will ever be able to look at this era as anything other than a lost opportunity. Despite the popularity of Craig and the commercial success, I still feel like each film has been compromised, heavily laden with baggage, and feels somehow dragged down, as if Bond himself is operating with one hand tied behind his back.

    Agreed. Albeit, I like the QoS continuity, but not the Step Brother...link all the films ‘bolted on’ rubbish from SP.

    Yes I quite like how QoS starts. But there was never any real need to drag him down with all the emotional baggage. "The bitch is dead" should have been the last word on Vesper imo.

    But literally all four films have used their final images to draw a line under what has gone before...only to take two steps backwards with the next film.

    To be fair, "the bitch is dead" wasn't Fleming's last word on Vesper.

    A lot of people simply don't like Dench as M because she's female and his boss. Pure sexism. She's clearly a better actor than any of the others who portrayed M, including Lee. Fiennes is the only one who comes close to Dench in acting ability.
    echo wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Might be starting a new topic here, but one thing I can never understand/forgive about the Craig era is how each film ends with some sort of emotional closure, only for them to inexplicably make the decision to open up the next storyline with the wounds/story threads still hanging.

    CR and SF end perfectly, and could have taken us into an exciting new era with Craig's Bond let loose to do his thing. Except in each film he is over laded by baggage from the previous film (SF is the closest thing to just letting him get on with it, and even then he has to contend with coming back from the dead and dealing with his relationship to M).

    It's the main reason I am not really looking forward to NTTD (just as well, it turns out!).

    I don't think I will ever be able to look at this era as anything other than a lost opportunity. Despite the popularity of Craig and the commercial success, I still feel like each film has been compromised, heavily laden with baggage, and feels somehow dragged down, as if Bond himself is operating with one hand tied behind his back.

    Agreed. Albeit, I like the QoS continuity, but not the Step Brother...link all the films ‘bolted on’ rubbish from SP.

    Yes I quite like how QoS starts. But there was never any real need to drag him down with all the emotional baggage. "The bitch is dead" should have been the last word on Vesper imo.

    But literally all four films have used their final images to draw a line under what has gone before...only to take two steps backwards with the next film.

    To be fair, "the bitch is dead" wasn't Fleming's last word on Vesper.

    A lot of people simply don't like Dench as M because she's female and his boss. Pure sexism. She's clearly a better actor than any of the others who portrayed M, including Lee. Fiennes is the only one who comes close to Dench in acting ability.

    Can't remember who said it on these boards, but they wrote that Bond's demons should be like a scar - not an open wound. Craig's Bond barely mentions Vesper, or any of his demons to be fair, it's just that all the other characters keep going on about them.

    Fleming gets used as a blunt instrument on here to help people win arguments. If Fleming has written something, they bring it up and say 'here, this is what Fleming does, so everything that resembles it is justified'. And if something from the movies goes against Fleming but that they happen to like, they say 'Fleming is outdated', 'the movies are different', or 'we need to move on and reflect the times'. You've only got to go on the 'who could be Bond' board whenever the prospect of a non-white Bond turns up. You see that argument played out again and again.

    I don't think many of us would particularly relish some of the racial and ethnic discussions the books engage in from time to time, so clearly Fleming's choices have limits.

    Fleming for me is the touchstone for the character traits, and overall mood of the Bond universe. But some of what he wrote should remain in the books.

    Fleming is a good guide. Perhaps the only guide. But it is clearly a balancing act. Vesper doesn't dominate Live and Let Die, Moonraker, or Diamonds are Forever. Can't remember if she is mentioned in those books. Probably at some point, but it's not at the forefront.

    I don't think you are in any position really to decide people's motives for not liking a character or actor. It could just as easily be turned back on you and claimed that you only like Dench because she's a woman.

    I like Dench as an actor and her portrayal as M (I think it is one of the strongest elements of the Craig and Brosnan films), but I have no insight to determine the motifs of those who don't like her turn as M.

    Vesper is mentioned in the DAF novel indirectly. Bond is unserved by a song that reminds him of her.

    I don’t particularly like the female M because it changes Fleming’s character and tradition for no apparent reason other than a ‘stunt’ to be PC and reflect the real MI6.

    I think it great to do a female M. It’s not like it’s the same character with a sex change.
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