Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    Yeah, count me in as a lover of the TLD pre-title sequence. It's all the best qualities of the series on display in a very short space of time. A really well-structured sequence that builds and builds to an exciting and thoroughly Bondian finish with a beautiful woman on a yacht (Bond really has all the luck doesn't he? Anyone else would have landed on a yacht with a rich, wrinkly old man).

    Though I take the point that the defection sequence following it is certainly also a series high in terms of tension and atmosphere. But overall, it's a testament to how strong TLD is as a film that it has those two sequences back to back.
  • Posts: 7,507
    Yeah, if the main argument against the TLD PTS is that there is another very strong segment following it, I don't think it counts as much of an argument to be honest... ;) Call me old school, but starting off aBond film with a great action scene is not too bad in my opinion! ;) Using the sniper scene as a PTS could potentially have worked as well, but it would definitely be an untraditionaly somber start to a Bond film, especially in comparison to what people had gotten used to during the Moore era.

    And the scene itself is just outstanding! Definitely ranks as a top five pts in the series for me. You could even make the case it is the best pts outright!
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,290
    Yes, it's one of the best PTS in the series, almost a mini-movie on its own. Hard to find fault with it.

    Glen gets a lot of flack around these parts, but the way I see it, 3.5 of his 5 movies were substantially above average (OP gets the .5).
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited March 2021 Posts: 16,379
    I do always get confused that part of Saunders' amazing extraction plan is to allow Koskov to stand out on the street knocking frantically on a locked door whilst he's in full view of a sniper! :)

    In truth that sequence doesn't really work as well as it does in the book: why would the KGB use a sniper when someone is just crossing a road? If they really thought he was really going to defect by walking to that side of the road, why not have some guys with guns just standing on that side of the road? :D
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    Yeah, it surely would have been simpler and more efficient. However, even the KGB used to operate with a form of discression (the tactics of Russian intelligence agencies haven't really changed that much, apart from the big blunder in Berlin a few years back), so they did use things like snipers, poisonings and car bombings regularly in order to provide just enough deniability that a group of gunmen on the street wouldn't afford them. The less hands involved, the better. That's all, of course, only in the event that they simply couldn't just arrest someone and execute them the old-fashioned way against a cellar wall. However, bearing in mind that Kara isn't actually sent by the KGB, but rather there simply to make the thing look somewhat legitimate to the British on Koskov's personal orders, it's a non-issue for me. Bond's instincts are on the money in that scene thankfully, too.

    As a side-note:
    Admittedly, I used to be confused by the presence of Pushkin's right hand man in that scene - the goon who rushes into the bathroom and the same guy who Bond later immobilises in Pushkin's hotel room. But, considering Pushkin later states that Koskov was about to be arrested for misusing state funds in any case, that explains why he was there and why he rushes out of the bathroom once Koskov does his runner - though I think the goon is assuming that he's simply evading arrest rather than defecting. It's rather clever on Koskov's part, even if it's a tad reliant on luck and hinges on absolutely perfect timing. But Glen's direction makes it all work, the pacing of it is spot-on. The editing combined with Barry's suspenseful scoring really elevate the entire thing.

    The only thing nitpick I really have with the scene, and that's only because I've used a fair bit of them in my time, is the use of a PVS-4 as Bond's night vision scope, or rather more generally the use of any night vision at all; it is completely unnecessary and would have actually hindered him when trying to shoot anything (of course, the audience won't pay much heed to it; they're used to the borderline sci-fi use of such tech in film). He would almost certainly be using a regular scope in those street-lit conditions, for the sake of his eyesight.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited March 2021 Posts: 16,379
    Yeah, it surely would have been simpler and more efficient. However, even the KGB used to operate with a form of discression (the tactics of Russian intelligence agencies haven't really changed that much, apart from the big blunder in Berlin a few years back), so they did use things like snipers, poisonings and car bombings regularly in order to provide just enough deniability that a group of gunmen on the street wouldn't afford them. The less hands involved, the better. That's all, of course, only in the event that they simply couldn't just arrest someone and execute them the old-fashioned way against a cellar wall.

    Yeah because making strawberry jam of him in the middle of the road is really discreet! :))
    However, bearing in mind that Kara isn't actually sent by the KGB, but rather there simply to make the thing look somewhat legitimate to the British on Koskov's personal orders, it's a non-issue for me. Bond's instincts are on the money in that scene thankfully, too.

    That's my point, it doesn't look at all realistic. If they suspected him of escaping across that particular bit of the road so much that they put a sniper right there, they'd have just had another guy standing on the pavement to arrest him, and they wouldn't have allowed him to hop out of the window in the first place. As it was, clearly the sniper knew something which his bodyguards didn't, which doesn't make sense if they're supposed to be working for the same people. Bond should have twigged that. I expect you disagree.

  • Posts: 7,507
    Well, the whole point is that the defection is staged, isn't it? The KGB are not actually involved... :-/
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited March 2021 Posts: 8,216
    mtm wrote: »
    Yeah, it surely would have been simpler and more efficient. However, even the KGB used to operate with a form of discression (the tactics of Russian intelligence agencies haven't really changed that much, apart from the big blunder in Berlin a few years back), so they did use things like snipers, poisonings and car bombings regularly in order to provide just enough deniability that a group of gunmen on the street wouldn't afford them. The less hands involved, the better. That's all, of course, only in the event that they simply couldn't just arrest someone and execute them the old-fashioned way against a cellar wall.

    Yeah because making strawberry jam of him in the middle of the road is really discreet! :))

    Well, yes, it is - in the sense that it allows the assassin to get away cleaner than it would if they were standing in the middle of a potentially busy street outside a venue. Getting away clean is pretty important, even if they are in friendly-enough territory.
    mtm wrote: »
    That's my point, it doesn't look at all realistic. If they suspected him of escaping across that particular bit of the road so much that they put a sniper right there, they'd have just had another guy standing on the pavement to arrest him, and they wouldn't have allowed him to hop out of the window in the first place. As it was, clearly the sniper knew something which his bodyguards didn't, which doesn't make sense if they're supposed to be working for the same people. Bond should have twigged that. I expect you disagree.

    Well, no....in a sense I agree as Bond does twig that, too. His mistrust of Koskov pretty much drives the way he investigates the whole story from that point forward - starting with almost instant recognition that Kara "didn't know one end of a rifle from the other". But even at that, he's not exactly going to stop in the middle of a mission and say "hang on, this is clearly nonsense. Forget about the high-value target, pack it up Saunders." As for people in the organisation not being on the same page (bearing in mind Bond only sees the two in the box and then Kara); that happened quite often, so it's not really unfeasible that the bodyguards wouldn't know about it - had Kara been an actual KGB sniper, of course.

    jobo wrote: »
    Well, the whole point is that the defection is staged, isn't it? The KGB are not actually involved... :-/

    That's the crux of it ultimately, yeah! :)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited March 2021 Posts: 16,379
    jobo wrote: »
    Well, the whole point is that the defection is staged, isn't it? The KGB are not actually involved... :-/

    But it's supposed to look like they are: that's the point. If you present the other side with two sets of people, who are both supposed to be KGB, who don't have the info that the other ones have, it's rather obvious that they're not KGB. One set of KGB are too stupid to stop him hopping out of a bog window, the other set of 'KGB' know for certain that he's going to escape out of there and station a sniper to stop him. It's a shoddy job, and not just because they picked Kara.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited March 2021 Posts: 16,379
    mtm wrote: »
    Yeah, it surely would have been simpler and more efficient. However, even the KGB used to operate with a form of discression (the tactics of Russian intelligence agencies haven't really changed that much, apart from the big blunder in Berlin a few years back), so they did use things like snipers, poisonings and car bombings regularly in order to provide just enough deniability that a group of gunmen on the street wouldn't afford them. The less hands involved, the better. That's all, of course, only in the event that they simply couldn't just arrest someone and execute them the old-fashioned way against a cellar wall.

    Yeah because making strawberry jam of him in the middle of the road is really discreet! :))

    Well, yes, it is - in the sense that it allows the assassin to get away cleaner than it would if they were standing in the middle of a potentially busy street outside a venue. Getting away clean is pretty important, even if they are in friendly-enough territory.

    Oh look, you disagree.
    The KGB don't need to kill him, just grab him. They 'apparently' know exactly where he's making his escape (because 'they' put a sniper right there) so why wouldn't 'they' just grab him and put him in a car, just like the real KGB do later with Kara? Or if they supposedly knew he was going to make a break for it (enough for them to supposedly put a sniper there) why take him to the opera at all? Or is Bond supposed to think they station snipers everywhere Koskov goes?
    The scene, as Koskov and Whittaker present MI6 with, doesn't make sense. The sole reason Bond thinks it's wrong is that Kara isn't a sniper, but he doesn't notice that the whole situation is nonsense.
  • Posts: 787

    The only thing nitpick I really have with the scene, and that's only because I've used a fair bit of them in my time, is the use of a PVS-4 as Bond's night vision scope, or rather more generally the use of any night vision at all; it is completely unnecessary and would have actually hindered him when trying to shoot anything (of course, the audience won't pay much heed to it; they're used to the borderline sci-fi use of such tech in film). He would almost certainly be using a regular scope in those street-lit conditions, for the sake of his eyesight.

    I'll grant you that. But surely that sin is offset by that absolutely brilliant Walther WA 2000? Rare as hen's teeth, those things, and absolutely the business for a 1980s Bond.
  • Posts: 7,507
    mtm wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    Well, the whole point is that the defection is staged, isn't it? The KGB are not actually involved... :-/

    But it's supposed to look like they are: that's the point. If you present the other side with two sets of people, who are both supposed to be KGB, who don't have the info that the other ones have, it's rather obvious that they're not KGB. One set of KGB are too stupid to stop him hopping out of a bog window, the other set of 'KGB' know for certain that he's going to escape out of there and station a sniper to stop him. It's a shoddy job, and not just because they picked Kara.

    I agree with that, certainly.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited March 2021 Posts: 8,216
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Yeah, it surely would have been simpler and more efficient. However, even the KGB used to operate with a form of discretion (the tactics of Russian intelligence agencies haven't really changed that much, apart from the big blunder in Berlin a few years back), so they did use things like snipers, poisonings and car bombings regularly in order to provide just enough deniability that a group of gunmen on the street wouldn't afford them. The less hands involved, the better. That's all, of course, only in the event that they simply couldn't just arrest someone and execute them the old-fashioned way against a cellar wall.

    Yeah because making strawberry jam of him in the middle of the road is really discreet! :))

    Well, yes, it is - in the sense that it allows the assassin to get away cleaner than it would if they were standing in the middle of a potentially busy street outside a venue. Getting away clean is pretty important, even if they are in friendly-enough territory.

    Oh look, you disagree.
    The KGB don't need to kill him, just grab him. They 'apparently' know exactly where he's making his escape (because 'they' put a sniper right there) so why wouldn't 'they' just grab him and put him in a car, just like the real KGB do later with Kara? Or if they supposedly knew he was going to make a break for it (enough for them to supposedly put a sniper there) why take him to the opera at all? Or is Bond supposed to think they station snipers everywhere Koskov goes?
    The scene, as Koskov and Whittaker present MI6 with, doesn't make sense. The sole reason Bond thinks it's wrong is that Kara isn't a sniper, but he doesn't notice that the whole situation is nonsense.

    Oh lord. There's really no need for the narcissism, @mtm. Keep it friendly. I'm only offering up what I believe are reasonable enough explanations based on what I know about the way these things were done, which certainly influenced the sequence. And I did agree with you on the other paragraph. And I agree with you about the pre-titles sequence. So, take it easy for once, yeah?

    They didn't "need" to do anything, really. It's not really about what they "need". There are a lot of people that they killed that they didn't need to. They almost always killed assassinated defectors - especially military ones. Modern Russia still does it to civilians today, for heaven's sake! :) If you were really unlucky - or if you were a political prisoner - you got sent to the camps outside Perm. But usually it was quicker to just have them knocked off, usually without warning and with a minimum of fuss (i.e. through sniping, poisoning, or car bombing). So the practicalities of it are not really something that Bond would think too much about. It's not so much "well, why aren't they doing it this way?", more, "well, we know they do this a lot!", so why wouldn't he buy the situation as presented in front of him? Of course he eventually cops on to it, but in isolation, while it is sexed up to add drama, it's not really nonsensical as a hypothetical situation.

    Did they take him to the opera? It would be a mighty coincidence for the KGB to take him to the same opera that his secret girlfriend was performing at (and one that he went to before), so I'm assuming that it was Koskov himself who went there of free will with his usual minders (who are terrible, by the way - they seemingly just disappear!) who he has with him everywhere he goes. The other KGB agents, who were there to arrest him on the charges Pushkin later relays to us, weren't part of the same group/unit, whatever you would like to call it. We don't see Pushkin's right hand man until he walks into the toilet, and it's possible Koskov was completely unaware of his presence as he was already in the cubicle! They're not all going to be clued in on things, the same way most MI6 operatives aren't going to be clued in on what Bond is doing at any one time.

    Grabbing Kara isn't really comparable, as they grabbed her for a specific reason that necessitated her staying alive (the same reason Bond is after her): finding Koskov. Plus, she's a woman and a civilian, not a Russian general like he is. She's important enough to be kept alive, but not important enough to be assassinated when she could be useful.

    Granted, you're right in that the book keeps things a lot simpler and that it has the luxury of being able to make itself fully clear. Though, for me, the film does an admirable job of the sequence.
    octofinger wrote: »

    The only thing nitpick I really have with the scene, and that's only because I've used a fair bit of them in my time, is the use of a PVS-4 as Bond's night vision scope, or rather more generally the use of any night vision at all; it is completely unnecessary and would have actually hindered him when trying to shoot anything (of course, the audience won't pay much heed to it; they're used to the borderline sci-fi use of such tech in film). He would almost certainly be using a regular scope in those street-lit conditions, for the sake of his eyesight.

    I'll grant you that. But surely that sin is offset by that absolutely brilliant Walther WA 2000? Rare as hen's teeth, those things, and absolutely the business for a 1980s Bond.

    A beautiful looking gun, that's absolutely true. And even though I make the point about the night-vision, they at least got a couple of very neat shots of Bond looking down the barrel in the scene that wouldn't have been nearly as dramatic with a conventional scope!

    The-Living-Daylights-087.jpg
  • Posts: 1,917
    What a great 1-2 punch the pretitles and opening sequence of TLD were. It was really refreshing in '87 and is just as good nearly 35 years later. It's a somewhat scaled-down, but no less exciting teaser after years of overblown sequences with silly gadgets and quips and a perfect introduction to the Dalton Bond.

    The beginning of the film proper departs from the usual briefing sequence that had been the norm since, what, DAF? Instead, we go straight to Bond on a mission and we follow along with him in some real spy work. And even get a Q in the field for something substantial. That was the Bond and atmosphere I'd been longing for as a fan.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    BT3366 wrote: »
    The beginning of the film proper departs from the usual briefing sequence that had been the norm since, what, DAF? Instead, we go straight to Bond on a mission and we follow along with him in some real spy work.

    I hadn't thought of that, @BT3366! That's interesting.
  • Posts: 787
    mtm wrote: »

    A beautiful looking gun, that's absolutely true. And even though I make the point about the night-vision, they at least got a couple of very neat shots of Bond looking down the barrel in the scene that wouldn't have been nearly as dramatic with a conventional scope!

    WkwcCp_Jbn9tNbJ6pxylDP1rtYdrMvkulWHawdyi4CrEWp_4KPh1-AFQgE9Oj5bKoJo-VtZUufdVPIImyQqX4KJhgJxdzQUylTgQIDBqZChzjzjebj8jVqyxyKqMZvOuzFMkxF6ul_v4NO0MU5u4NLdKQBU

    I've said this before, but one of the things I quite like about this sequence - and, now that I think about it, about the sniper sequence in LTK - is the emphasis on Bond's craft.

    It's unobtrusive, but the couple of seconds spent on showing the rifle hidden under the duvet, and Bond flipping up his lapel to obscure the white shirt - these little details give a glimpse into how he works, and I'd love to see more of that.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,379
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Yeah, it surely would have been simpler and more efficient. However, even the KGB used to operate with a form of discretion (the tactics of Russian intelligence agencies haven't really changed that much, apart from the big blunder in Berlin a few years back), so they did use things like snipers, poisonings and car bombings regularly in order to provide just enough deniability that a group of gunmen on the street wouldn't afford them. The less hands involved, the better. That's all, of course, only in the event that they simply couldn't just arrest someone and execute them the old-fashioned way against a cellar wall.

    Yeah because making strawberry jam of him in the middle of the road is really discreet! :))

    Well, yes, it is - in the sense that it allows the assassin to get away cleaner than it would if they were standing in the middle of a potentially busy street outside a venue. Getting away clean is pretty important, even if they are in friendly-enough territory.

    Oh look, you disagree.
    The KGB don't need to kill him, just grab him. They 'apparently' know exactly where he's making his escape (because 'they' put a sniper right there) so why wouldn't 'they' just grab him and put him in a car, just like the real KGB do later with Kara? Or if they supposedly knew he was going to make a break for it (enough for them to supposedly put a sniper there) why take him to the opera at all? Or is Bond supposed to think they station snipers everywhere Koskov goes?
    The scene, as Koskov and Whittaker present MI6 with, doesn't make sense. The sole reason Bond thinks it's wrong is that Kara isn't a sniper, but he doesn't notice that the whole situation is nonsense.

    Oh lord. There's really no need for the narcissism, @mtm. Keep it friendly. I'm only offering up what I believe are reasonable enough explanations based on what I know about the way these things were done, which certainly influenced the sequence. And I did agree with you on the other paragraph. And I agree with you about the pre-titles sequence. So, take it easy for once, yeah?

    They didn't "need" to do anything, really. It's not really about what they "need". There are a lot of people that they killed that they didn't need to. They almost always killed assassinated defectors - especially military ones. Modern Russia still does it to civilians today, for heaven's sake! :) If you were really unlucky - or if you were a political prisoner - you got sent to the camps outside Perm. But usually it was quicker to just have them knocked off, usually without warning and with a minimum of fuss (i.e. through sniping, poisoning, or car bombing). So the practicalities of it are not really something that Bond would think too much about. It's not so much "well, why aren't they doing it this way?", more, "well, we know they do this a lot!", so why wouldn't he buy the situation as presented in front of him? Of course he eventually cops on to it, but in isolation, while it is sexed up to add drama, it's not really nonsensical as a hypothetical situation.

    Did they take him to the opera? It would be a mighty coincidence for the KGB to take him to the same opera that his secret girlfriend was performing at (and one that he went to before), so I'm assuming that it was Koskov himself who went there of free will with his usual minders (who are terrible, by the way - they seemingly just disappear!) who he has with him everywhere he goes. The other KGB agents, who were there to arrest him on the charges Pushkin later relays to us, weren't part of the same group/unit, whatever you would like to call it. We don't see Pushkin's right hand man until he walks into the toilet, and it's possible Koskov was completely unaware of his presence as he was already in the cubicle! They're not all going to be clued in on things, the same way most MI6 operatives aren't going to be clued in on what Bond is doing at any one time.

    Grabbing Kara isn't really comparable, as they grabbed her for a specific reason that necessitated her staying alive (the same reason Bond is after her): finding Koskov. Plus, she's a woman and a civilian, not a Russian general like he is. She's important enough to be kept alive, but not important enough to be assassinated when she could be useful.

    Granted, you're right in that the book keeps things a lot simpler and that it has the luxury of being able to make itself fully clear. Though, for me, the film does an admirable job of the sequence.
    octofinger wrote: »

    The only thing nitpick I really have with the scene, and that's only because I've used a fair bit of them in my time, is the use of a PVS-4 as Bond's night vision scope, or rather more generally the use of any night vision at all; it is completely unnecessary and would have actually hindered him when trying to shoot anything (of course, the audience won't pay much heed to it; they're used to the borderline sci-fi use of such tech in film). He would almost certainly be using a regular scope in those street-lit conditions, for the sake of his eyesight.

    I'll grant you that. But surely that sin is offset by that absolutely brilliant Walther WA 2000? Rare as hen's teeth, those things, and absolutely the business for a 1980s Bond.

    A beautiful looking gun, that's absolutely true. And even though I make the point about the night-vision, they at least got a couple of very neat shots of Bond looking down the barrel in the scene that wouldn't have been nearly as dramatic with a conventional scope!

    WkwcCp_Jbn9tNbJ6pxylDP1rtYdrMvkulWHawdyi4CrEWp_4KPh1-AFQgE9Oj5bKoJo-VtZUufdVPIImyQqX4KJhgJxdzQUylTgQIDBqZChzjzjebj8jVqyxyKqMZvOuzFMkxF6ul_v4NO0MU5u4NLdKQBU

    Yeah yeah, everything I say is wrong. I didn’t read it all I’m afraid.
    The crux is, if the KGB were so sure he was going to defect that night (by crossing the road!) they simply would have just arrested him as they were already guarding him. Argue all you like.

    It’s a great sequence to watch: like most things in Bond you’re not supposed to think about it so heavily. I only did it for a bit of fun, but that fun has been drained out of it now.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,379
    octofinger wrote: »
    It's unobtrusive, but the couple of seconds spent on showing the rifle hidden under the duvet, and Bond flipping up his lapel to obscure the white shirt - these little details give a glimpse into how he works, and I'd love to see more of that.

    I always think if he’s dressed as a gent, the great big white cuffs he’s showing would be a giveaway! :D I know he gets a mitt to wear but perhaps gauntlets would be better :)
    Did you know Tim was pretty much the only Bond to wear off-the-peg suits where all the others got bespoke? His casting really was so last minute they didn’t have time to make them for him.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    mtm wrote: »
    Yeah yeah, everything I say is wrong. I didn’t read it all I’m afraid.
    The crux is, if the KGB were so sure he was going to defect that night (by crossing the road!) they simply would have just arrested him as they were already guarding him. Argue all you like.

    It’s a great sequence to watch: like most things in Bond you’re not supposed to think about it so heavily. I only did it for a bit of fun, but that fun has been drained out of it now.

    Man, this is so sad. No wonder you have the reputation you do. This wasn't an argument (I think you had already decided in your head that it was one for no reason), but if you're going to continue with the narcissism then more power to you.
    octofinger wrote: »
    I've said this before, but one of the things I quite like about this sequence - and, now that I think about it, about the sniper sequence in LTK - is the emphasis on Bond's craft.

    It's unobtrusive, but the couple of seconds spent on showing the rifle hidden under the duvet, and Bond flipping up his lapel to obscure the white shirt - these little details give a glimpse into how he works, and I'd love to see more of that.

    The talk of the bullets, soft nosed versus steel tipped. The "bring the chair" comment. Even the inclusion of "Section 26, paragraph five" as a humorous touch in the dialogue, all great details. I would like to see more of it, too. Quite a lot of Bond's time is spent being reactionary (especially these days), whereas that TLD is him being part of a plan that has been designed and executed by his side, and features him as a part in a well-oiled espionage machine. I love that stuff.

    I think the only sequence that comes close in terms of stealthy spymanship is when he is following Patrice in Shanghai in SF, and even that is a different kettle of fish altogether.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,253
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Yeah, it surely would have been simpler and more efficient. However, even the KGB used to operate with a form of discretion (the tactics of Russian intelligence agencies haven't really changed that much, apart from the big blunder in Berlin a few years back), so they did use things like snipers, poisonings and car bombings regularly in order to provide just enough deniability that a group of gunmen on the street wouldn't afford them. The less hands involved, the better. That's all, of course, only in the event that they simply couldn't just arrest someone and execute them the old-fashioned way against a cellar wall.

    Yeah because making strawberry jam of him in the middle of the road is really discreet! :))

    Well, yes, it is - in the sense that it allows the assassin to get away cleaner than it would if they were standing in the middle of a potentially busy street outside a venue. Getting away clean is pretty important, even if they are in friendly-enough territory.

    Oh look, you disagree.
    The KGB don't need to kill him, just grab him. They 'apparently' know exactly where he's making his escape (because 'they' put a sniper right there) so why wouldn't 'they' just grab him and put him in a car, just like the real KGB do later with Kara? Or if they supposedly knew he was going to make a break for it (enough for them to supposedly put a sniper there) why take him to the opera at all? Or is Bond supposed to think they station snipers everywhere Koskov goes?
    The scene, as Koskov and Whittaker present MI6 with, doesn't make sense. The sole reason Bond thinks it's wrong is that Kara isn't a sniper, but he doesn't notice that the whole situation is nonsense.

    Oh lord. There's really no need for the narcissism, @mtm. Keep it friendly. I'm only offering up what I believe are reasonable enough explanations based on what I know about the way these things were done, which certainly influenced the sequence. And I did agree with you on the other paragraph. And I agree with you about the pre-titles sequence. So, take it easy for once, yeah?

    They didn't "need" to do anything, really. It's not really about what they "need". There are a lot of people that they killed that they didn't need to. They almost always killed assassinated defectors - especially military ones. Modern Russia still does it to civilians today, for heaven's sake! :) If you were really unlucky - or if you were a political prisoner - you got sent to the camps outside Perm. But usually it was quicker to just have them knocked off, usually without warning and with a minimum of fuss (i.e. through sniping, poisoning, or car bombing). So the practicalities of it are not really something that Bond would think too much about. It's not so much "well, why aren't they doing it this way?", more, "well, we know they do this a lot!", so why wouldn't he buy the situation as presented in front of him? Of course he eventually cops on to it, but in isolation, while it is sexed up to add drama, it's not really nonsensical as a hypothetical situation.

    Did they take him to the opera? It would be a mighty coincidence for the KGB to take him to the same opera that his secret girlfriend was performing at (and one that he went to before), so I'm assuming that it was Koskov himself who went there of free will with his usual minders (who are terrible, by the way - they seemingly just disappear!) who he has with him everywhere he goes. The other KGB agents, who were there to arrest him on the charges Pushkin later relays to us, weren't part of the same group/unit, whatever you would like to call it. We don't see Pushkin's right hand man until he walks into the toilet, and it's possible Koskov was completely unaware of his presence as he was already in the cubicle! They're not all going to be clued in on things, the same way most MI6 operatives aren't going to be clued in on what Bond is doing at any one time.

    Grabbing Kara isn't really comparable, as they grabbed her for a specific reason that necessitated her staying alive (the same reason Bond is after her): finding Koskov. Plus, she's a woman and a civilian, not a Russian general like he is. She's important enough to be kept alive, but not important enough to be assassinated when she could be useful.

    Granted, you're right in that the book keeps things a lot simpler and that it has the luxury of being able to make itself fully clear. Though, for me, the film does an admirable job of the sequence.
    octofinger wrote: »

    The only thing nitpick I really have with the scene, and that's only because I've used a fair bit of them in my time, is the use of a PVS-4 as Bond's night vision scope, or rather more generally the use of any night vision at all; it is completely unnecessary and would have actually hindered him when trying to shoot anything (of course, the audience won't pay much heed to it; they're used to the borderline sci-fi use of such tech in film). He would almost certainly be using a regular scope in those street-lit conditions, for the sake of his eyesight.

    I'll grant you that. But surely that sin is offset by that absolutely brilliant Walther WA 2000? Rare as hen's teeth, those things, and absolutely the business for a 1980s Bond.

    A beautiful looking gun, that's absolutely true. And even though I make the point about the night-vision, they at least got a couple of very neat shots of Bond looking down the barrel in the scene that wouldn't have been nearly as dramatic with a conventional scope!

    WkwcCp_Jbn9tNbJ6pxylDP1rtYdrMvkulWHawdyi4CrEWp_4KPh1-AFQgE9Oj5bKoJo-VtZUufdVPIImyQqX4KJhgJxdzQUylTgQIDBqZChzjzjebj8jVqyxyKqMZvOuzFMkxF6ul_v4NO0MU5u4NLdKQBU

    Yeah yeah, everything I say is wrong. I didn’t read it all I’m afraid.
    The crux is, if the KGB were so sure he was going to defect that night (by crossing the road!) they simply would have just arrested him as they were already guarding him. Argue all you like.

    It’s a great sequence to watch: like most things in Bond you’re not supposed to think about it so heavily. I only did it for a bit of fun, but that fun has been drained out of it now.
    He didn't say that now did he? If you'd bothered to read you might've learned something. I completely agree with @CraigMooreOHMSS and will only add that it's quite common for security services that one end doesn't know about the other, and within communist structures that goes times ten, as it also has to do with internal politics
  • Posts: 15,116
    Regarding PTSs in Bond movies, I prefer the sober ones like in FRWL and CR to the big action scenes. This is why I think the PTS of TWINE should have been only the Bilbao scene.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited March 2021 Posts: 18,270
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Regarding PTSs in Bond movies, I prefer the sober ones like in FRWL and CR to the big action scenes. This is why I think the PTS of TWINE should have been only the Bilbao scene.

    I'd agree with you there. A smaller scale approach allows the film to breathe momentarily and to build towards a stronger narrative than guns and explosions. Of course by the time TWINE came along the idea of returning to a 1960s or early 1970s style Bond PTS had gone out of the window. It must've been felt that that sort of opening for a Bond film didn't quite cut the mustard any more. This was in the context of each Bond PTS frantically trying to be bigger and better than the one that immediately preceded it. The problem with the TWINE PTS is that I think too many ideas and too much action was crammed into it. It became a mini movie in itself rather than the start of a movie. I agree that it would've been nice had the TWINE PTS ended in Bilbao but that just wasn't the done thing at the time. I suppose many cinemagoers would have been disappointed at how "tame" the PTS was if it had ended there.

    It's interesting to think that in only two films later with CR we had a return to the smaller scale PTS again, not really seen since the early 1970s in Guy Hamilton's last three Bond films. In that sense CR was a reboot in more ways than one.
  • Posts: 1,917
    octofinger wrote: »
    I've said this before, but one of the things I quite like about this sequence - and, now that I think about it, about the sniper sequence in LTK - is the emphasis on Bond's craft.

    It's unobtrusive, but the couple of seconds spent on showing the rifle hidden under the duvet, and Bond flipping up his lapel to obscure the white shirt - these little details give a glimpse into how he works, and I'd love to see more of that.

    The talk of the bullets, soft nosed versus steel tipped. The "bring the chair" comment. Even the inclusion of "Section 26, paragraph five" as a humorous touch in the dialogue, all great details. I would like to see more of it, too. Quite a lot of Bond's time is spent being reactionary (especially these days), whereas that TLD is him being part of a plan that has been designed and executed by his side, and features him as a part in a well-oiled espionage machine. I love that stuff.

    I think the only sequence that comes close in terms of stealthy spymanship is when he is following Patrice in Shanghai in SF, and even that is a different kettle of fish altogether.

    Yes, another aspect I love about that Bratslava sequence. That assassin tux outfit was such a cool little detail during that first viewing. All those touches are a nice nod to Fleming, just one of the standout sequences in the series. Makes me want to watch this film again right now and hope for more of those little details in the future as well. I'll trade a big action sequence for some of those memorable touches any time.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited March 2021 Posts: 8,216
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Yeah, it surely would have been simpler and more efficient. However, even the KGB used to operate with a form of discretion (the tactics of Russian intelligence agencies haven't really changed that much, apart from the big blunder in Berlin a few years back), so they did use things like snipers, poisonings and car bombings regularly in order to provide just enough deniability that a group of gunmen on the street wouldn't afford them. The less hands involved, the better. That's all, of course, only in the event that they simply couldn't just arrest someone and execute them the old-fashioned way against a cellar wall.

    Yeah because making strawberry jam of him in the middle of the road is really discreet! :))

    Well, yes, it is - in the sense that it allows the assassin to get away cleaner than it would if they were standing in the middle of a potentially busy street outside a venue. Getting away clean is pretty important, even if they are in friendly-enough territory.

    Oh look, you disagree.
    The KGB don't need to kill him, just grab him. They 'apparently' know exactly where he's making his escape (because 'they' put a sniper right there) so why wouldn't 'they' just grab him and put him in a car, just like the real KGB do later with Kara? Or if they supposedly knew he was going to make a break for it (enough for them to supposedly put a sniper there) why take him to the opera at all? Or is Bond supposed to think they station snipers everywhere Koskov goes?
    The scene, as Koskov and Whittaker present MI6 with, doesn't make sense. The sole reason Bond thinks it's wrong is that Kara isn't a sniper, but he doesn't notice that the whole situation is nonsense.

    Oh lord. There's really no need for the narcissism, @mtm. Keep it friendly. I'm only offering up what I believe are reasonable enough explanations based on what I know about the way these things were done, which certainly influenced the sequence. And I did agree with you on the other paragraph. And I agree with you about the pre-titles sequence. So, take it easy for once, yeah?

    They didn't "need" to do anything, really. It's not really about what they "need". There are a lot of people that they killed that they didn't need to. They almost always killed assassinated defectors - especially military ones. Modern Russia still does it to civilians today, for heaven's sake! :) If you were really unlucky - or if you were a political prisoner - you got sent to the camps outside Perm. But usually it was quicker to just have them knocked off, usually without warning and with a minimum of fuss (i.e. through sniping, poisoning, or car bombing). So the practicalities of it are not really something that Bond would think too much about. It's not so much "well, why aren't they doing it this way?", more, "well, we know they do this a lot!", so why wouldn't he buy the situation as presented in front of him? Of course he eventually cops on to it, but in isolation, while it is sexed up to add drama, it's not really nonsensical as a hypothetical situation.

    Did they take him to the opera? It would be a mighty coincidence for the KGB to take him to the same opera that his secret girlfriend was performing at (and one that he went to before), so I'm assuming that it was Koskov himself who went there of free will with his usual minders (who are terrible, by the way - they seemingly just disappear!) who he has with him everywhere he goes. The other KGB agents, who were there to arrest him on the charges Pushkin later relays to us, weren't part of the same group/unit, whatever you would like to call it. We don't see Pushkin's right hand man until he walks into the toilet, and it's possible Koskov was completely unaware of his presence as he was already in the cubicle! They're not all going to be clued in on things, the same way most MI6 operatives aren't going to be clued in on what Bond is doing at any one time.

    Grabbing Kara isn't really comparable, as they grabbed her for a specific reason that necessitated her staying alive (the same reason Bond is after her): finding Koskov. Plus, she's a woman and a civilian, not a Russian general like he is. She's important enough to be kept alive, but not important enough to be assassinated when she could be useful.

    Granted, you're right in that the book keeps things a lot simpler and that it has the luxury of being able to make itself fully clear. Though, for me, the film does an admirable job of the sequence.
    octofinger wrote: »

    The only thing nitpick I really have with the scene, and that's only because I've used a fair bit of them in my time, is the use of a PVS-4 as Bond's night vision scope, or rather more generally the use of any night vision at all; it is completely unnecessary and would have actually hindered him when trying to shoot anything (of course, the audience won't pay much heed to it; they're used to the borderline sci-fi use of such tech in film). He would almost certainly be using a regular scope in those street-lit conditions, for the sake of his eyesight.

    I'll grant you that. But surely that sin is offset by that absolutely brilliant Walther WA 2000? Rare as hen's teeth, those things, and absolutely the business for a 1980s Bond.

    A beautiful looking gun, that's absolutely true. And even though I make the point about the night-vision, they at least got a couple of very neat shots of Bond looking down the barrel in the scene that wouldn't have been nearly as dramatic with a conventional scope!

    The-Living-Daylights-087.jpg

    Yeah yeah, everything I say is wrong. I didn’t read it all I’m afraid.
    The crux is, if the KGB were so sure he was going to defect that night (by crossing the road!) they simply would have just arrested him as they were already guarding him. Argue all you like.

    It’s a great sequence to watch: like most things in Bond you’re not supposed to think about it so heavily. I only did it for a bit of fun, but that fun has been drained out of it now.
    He didn't say that now did he? If you'd bothered to read you might've learned something. I completely agree with @CraigMooreOHMSS and will only add that it's quite common for security services that one end doesn't know about the other, and within communist structures that goes times ten, as it also has to do with internal politics

    Much obliged @CommanderRoss. Your addition is quite right! :)
    BT3366 wrote: »
    octofinger wrote: »
    I've said this before, but one of the things I quite like about this sequence - and, now that I think about it, about the sniper sequence in LTK - is the emphasis on Bond's craft.

    It's unobtrusive, but the couple of seconds spent on showing the rifle hidden under the duvet, and Bond flipping up his lapel to obscure the white shirt - these little details give a glimpse into how he works, and I'd love to see more of that.

    The talk of the bullets, soft nosed versus steel tipped. The "bring the chair" comment. Even the inclusion of "Section 26, paragraph five" as a humorous touch in the dialogue, all great details. I would like to see more of it, too. Quite a lot of Bond's time is spent being reactionary (especially these days), whereas that TLD is him being part of a plan that has been designed and executed by his side, and features him as a part in a well-oiled espionage machine. I love that stuff.

    I think the only sequence that comes close in terms of stealthy spymanship is when he is following Patrice in Shanghai in SF, and even that is a different kettle of fish altogether.

    Yes, another aspect I love about that Bratislava sequence. That assassin tux outfit was such a cool little detail during that first viewing. All those touches are a nice nod to Fleming, just one of the standout sequences in the series. Makes me want to watch this film again right now and hope for more of those little details in the future as well. I'll trade a big action sequence for some of those memorable touches any time.

    I might just end up watching it again tonight, too!
  • Posts: 15,116
    Since DAF is controversial to begin with what I'll say might paradoxically not be so controversial , but here it is: Blofeld is not the right villain for an adaptation of DAF or for a setting like Las Vegas. As terrible as Goldfinger's twin would've been, it would have been a more suitable character for the setting.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,177
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Since DAF is controversial to begin with what I'll say might paradoxically not be so controversial , but here it is: Blofeld is not the right villain for an adaptation of DAF or for a setting like Las Vegas. As terrible as Goldfinger's twin would've been, it would have been a more suitable character for the setting.

    I completely agree! Not with the brother thing, which is always lazy in my opinion, but with Blofeld not being the proper guy for this. Considering the tone of the film, heck even Willard Whyte would've made a better and more suitable villain. DAF feels to me like a '70s TV production anyway, and that whole "it's Blofeld doing all of it in the shadows" plot just doesn't fit the tone of the movie. A Bobby Ewing kinda guy would have been more suitable. The diamond-powered satellite is a lame excuse for a climax anyway. Just a simple case of diamond smuggling would have sufficed. (LALD was just about drugs being smuggled into the States too.) And for that, we don't need a Blofeld and not even a Goldfinger but just a rich man trying to get richer.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,379
    I like the idea of a Bobby/JR style villain, that could have been fun. Like General Midwinter in Billion Dollar Brain :)
  • Posts: 15,116
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Since DAF is controversial to begin with what I'll say might paradoxically not be so controversial , but here it is: Blofeld is not the right villain for an adaptation of DAF or for a setting like Las Vegas. As terrible as Goldfinger's twin would've been, it would have been a more suitable character for the setting.

    I completely agree! Not with the brother thing, which is always lazy in my opinion, but with Blofeld not being the proper guy for this. Considering the tone of the film, heck even Willard Whyte would've made a better and more suitable villain. DAF feels to me like a '70s TV production anyway, and that whole "it's Blofeld doing all of it in the shadows" plot just doesn't fit the tone of the movie. A Bobby Ewing kinda guy would have been more suitable. The diamond-powered satellite is a lame excuse for a climax anyway. Just a simple case of diamond smuggling would have sufficed. (LALD was just about drugs being smuggled into the States too.) And for that, we don't need a Blofeld and not even a Goldfinger but just a rich man trying to get richer.

    Oh don't get me wrong: Goldfinger's twin would have been a terrible idea in it's own right, I'm just saying that a Goldfinger type character suits Vegas better. As much as I'm not a fan of evil businessmen, one would have worked better here. Blofeld is a villain for remote locations like Piz Gloria or inconspicuous ones like that Paris meeting place. Not for Vegas.
  • edited March 2021 Posts: 787
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Regarding PTSs in Bond movies, I prefer the sober ones like in FRWL and CR to the big action scenes. This is why I think the PTS of TWINE should have been only the Bilbao scene.

    I'd agree with you there. A smaller scale approach allows the film to breathe momentarily and to build towards a stronger narrative than guns and explosions. Of course by the time TWINE came along the idea of returning to a 1960s or early 1970s style Bond PTS had gone out of the window.

    Good point, and as I think of it, I agree. I prefer the PTS to be more about style than bombast. I like a moment that shows us a bit of flair, or cheek, or luck - from a cocked eyebrow to a union jack parachute - rather than a longer, pulse-pounding chase or fight.

    Some fisticuffs are fine. And you could argue that skiing off the cliff in the TSWLM was a huge stunt. But it's also the way it was pulled off - it's actually a brief scene, and the jump itself is silent . . . the payoff isn't an explosion or a death, but the style moment of the parachute.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,585
    Ludovico wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Since DAF is controversial to begin with what I'll say might paradoxically not be so controversial , but here it is: Blofeld is not the right villain for an adaptation of DAF or for a setting like Las Vegas. As terrible as Goldfinger's twin would've been, it would have been a more suitable character for the setting.

    I completely agree! Not with the brother thing, which is always lazy in my opinion, but with Blofeld not being the proper guy for this. Considering the tone of the film, heck even Willard Whyte would've made a better and more suitable villain. DAF feels to me like a '70s TV production anyway, and that whole "it's Blofeld doing all of it in the shadows" plot just doesn't fit the tone of the movie. A Bobby Ewing kinda guy would have been more suitable. The diamond-powered satellite is a lame excuse for a climax anyway. Just a simple case of diamond smuggling would have sufficed. (LALD was just about drugs being smuggled into the States too.) And for that, we don't need a Blofeld and not even a Goldfinger but just a rich man trying to get richer.

    Oh don't get me wrong: Goldfinger's twin would have been a terrible idea in it's own right, I'm just saying that a Goldfinger type character suits Vegas better. As much as I'm not a fan of evil businessmen, one would have worked better here. Blofeld is a villain for remote locations like Piz Gloria or inconspicuous ones like that Paris meeting place. Not for Vegas.

    Should have been a mafia run plot point.
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