Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    Ludovico wrote: »
    My controversial opinion, which I think I mentioned here before: SF makes more sense with the retcon in SP.

    I'd love to hear more!
  • Posts: 15,116
    Ludovico wrote: »
    My controversial opinion, which I think I mentioned here before: SF makes more sense with the retcon in SP.

    I'd love to hear more!

    That Silva pulled such an operation which would demand vast amount of resources and the loyalty of his henchmen in a scheme (where there were no clear benefits for them) makes more sense IMO if someone else had an interest in Silva's success on the long run. Besides it makes perfect sense with an organisation such as Spectre to be aware of Silva's activities and using them to their advantage.
  • Posts: 1,630
    Very sensible, though let's not forget, please, the illogicality of henchmen, generally, as exposed already in the films depicting the missions of the other British agent and international man of intrigue, Austin Powers. His father -- portrayed by Michael Caine -- an agent, too (though not Palmer, Harry Palmer), even asked the henchman he was about to fight, why do it ? He was just going to disable or kill the guy, after all. The henchman who voluntarily ceded the fight to the senior Powers perhaps was the first henchman ever to act logically. How much do they get paid, anyway ? And they usually seem to live at the Lair. Where ? We never see barracks or apartments. They're too isolated, in terms of location, for the workers to go home to their families. They seem to work an inordinate number of hours. Perhaps in TMWTGG, though it felt like a matter of budget, it made more sense for Scaramanga and Nick Nack to be there alone. Clearly, they'd have had to hire construction workers and others to set the place up. Not so clearly -- who kept it clean and otherwise maintained ? So, the problem of getting good help, in reality, could well be the topic of an evil mastermind's dinnertime looooong discussion with Bond, to the point where Bond would kill the mastermind just to shut them up ! Rather like those of you who've read this post might feel right about now...
  • Posts: 15,116
    Actually, I never quite got the complaint or criticism about henchmen and henchmen's motivations, in Bond movies and other franchises. In real life, where do terrorist groups, paramilitary organisations, crime syndicates and so on find their men? What's in it for them, what's the appeal? We can question their motivations, but we cannot question their existence.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,381
    Yeah they're basically mercenaries, aren't they? Especially in Silva's gang. They're just criminals. And Silva does allude to using his hacking skills to make a bit of money doesn't he? I can't quite remember but he's at least connected to the sex trade which Severine has been part of I feel...? Plus there's the thing with the the painting, which, although I don't think I understood it, does seem to be there to make money. So he's paying these guys.
  • Posts: 7,507
    Of all things to overanalyze in Bond, the motivation of the henchmen is not one of them. Of course it makes absolutely no sense that Oddjob is willing to sacrifice his life for Goldfinger, but he does, and the film is better for it.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    One of the benefits of Silva's slightly unrealistic "point and click" abilities is that he could promise these guys anything for their services, even things he doesn't actually possess. Goons/muscle for hire are ten a penny and always have been, so I never found it hard to believe that villains (Silva or otherwise) could have legions of mercs on side.
  • Posts: 15,116
    One of the benefits of Silva's slightly unrealistic "point and click" abilities is that he could promise these guys anything for their services, even things he doesn't actually possess. Goons/muscle for hire are ten a penny and always have been, so I never found it hard to believe that villains (Silva or otherwise) could have legions of mercs on side.

    Basically Austin Powers was answering a question nobody asked or cared about. It would be like watching a western and asking: "Where do all these desperados come from?"
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    Ludovico wrote: »
    One of the benefits of Silva's slightly unrealistic "point and click" abilities is that he could promise these guys anything for their services, even things he doesn't actually possess. Goons/muscle for hire are ten a penny and always have been, so I never found it hard to believe that villains (Silva or otherwise) could have legions of mercs on side.

    Basically Austin Powers was answering a question nobody asked or cared about. It would be like watching a western and asking: "Where do all these desperados come from?"

    I actually don't remember that, but that's about right I'd say!

    It's been a long time since I've seen any of the Austin Powers' films. I think the last time I saw one was just before SP's release, which was unfortunate timing to say the least.
  • Posts: 15,116
    Ludovico wrote: »
    One of the benefits of Silva's slightly unrealistic "point and click" abilities is that he could promise these guys anything for their services, even things he doesn't actually possess. Goons/muscle for hire are ten a penny and always have been, so I never found it hard to believe that villains (Silva or otherwise) could have legions of mercs on side.

    Basically Austin Powers was answering a question nobody asked or cared about. It would be like watching a western and asking: "Where do all these desperados come from?"

    I actually don't remember that, but that's about right I'd say!

    It's been a long time since I've seen any of the Austin Powers' films. I think the last time I saw one was just before SP's release, which was unfortunate timing to say the least.

    Here's another controversial opinion: the foster brother plot point is the only thing I dislike about SP. Blofeld could have even played a role in the murder of Oberhauser and while contrived I would have accepted it.
  • Posts: 1,630
    The only thing the Bond producers missed in borrowing from Austin Powers would have been for Bond to tell Blofeld, upon learning the depth and breadth of Blofeld's plans, that "I always knew you were crazy, but now I can see your nuts !" (Considering the Powers quote, I did NOT misspell "your")
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,290
    LALD is the first Bond film I saw, so it holds a special place for me.

    But yikes, the sets--especially Kananga's lair--are terrible.
  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    edited March 2021 Posts: 1,351
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    One of the benefits of Silva's slightly unrealistic "point and click" abilities is that he could promise these guys anything for their services, even things he doesn't actually possess. Goons/muscle for hire are ten a penny and always have been, so I never found it hard to believe that villains (Silva or otherwise) could have legions of mercs on side.

    Basically Austin Powers was answering a question nobody asked or cared about. It would be like watching a western and asking: "Where do all these desperados come from?"

    I actually don't remember that, but that's about right I'd say!

    It's been a long time since I've seen any of the Austin Powers' films. I think the last time I saw one was just before SP's release, which was unfortunate timing to say the least.

    Here's another controversial opinion: the foster brother plot point is the only thing I dislike about SP. Blofeld could have even played a role in the murder of Oberhauser and while contrived I would have accepted it.

    I wouldn't say it is the only thing I dislike, but I am much more bothered by how botched the "C" c-plot is than the brother thing. I don't like Brofeld, but screwing up the thematic basis on which Bond films have to operate for the foreseeable future - and the actual villainous scheme of the film! - is much more problematic. SP is the first and so far only Bond film post-Snowden i.e. the biggest disruption of the western intelligence establishment since the end of the Cold War. And they kind of half-way go in that direction but just completely screw it up. None of it is interesting, it barely makes sense and it has no real bearing on what Bond does.

    Now I'm annoyed again 😂

    Edit: Plus, I suspect this isn't much of a controversial opinion, so I am just shitting on that film unnecessarily. Sorry.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,114
    echo wrote: »
    LALD is the first Bond film I saw, so it holds a special place for me.

    But yikes, the sets--especially Kananga's lair--are terrible.

    I think that's one of my gripes with LALD, I don't find the locations/sets very atmospherical...

    It's an improvement on DAF, but I think I prefer all the other pre-DAD entries to it.
  • edited March 2021 Posts: 2,917
    echo wrote: »
    But yikes, the sets--especially Kananga's lair--are terrible.

    It looks like a contractual obligation Bond villain lair.

  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited March 2021 Posts: 16,381
    Yes, same with Scaramanga's slightly obligatory-feeling 'big set' power station. Manned by one guy. That'll do. There's something about those two Hamilton Roger films where it feel their hearts just weren't in them, somehow. Then Spy Who Loved Me comes along and it's like they've decided to make these films properly.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,114
    You have a point there, but I think TMWTGG improves upon LALD in those departments. The Mi6 sunken ship hideout is great, so is Scaramanga's funhouse. Furthermore, the locations are amazing in GG.
  • Posts: 15,116
    LALD has its share of flaws, but overall I rather like it and I find some of these flaws to be part of its charms. Regarding the sets, yes they're not good, but let's keep in mind that a drug lord operating in a third world country and in the heart of America would go for something more concealed than the usual Bond villain.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Every Bond actor s second film is better than his first.
  • Posts: 1,917
    mtm wrote: »
    Yes, same with Scaramanga's slightly obligatory-feeling 'big set' power station. Manned by one guy. That'll do. There's something about those two Hamilton Roger films where it feel their hearts just weren't in them, somehow. Then Spy Who Loved Me comes along and it's like they've decided to make these films properly.

    Also with Kananga's lair, there's just him and Whisper in there, no other guards or henchmen milling around, save for those couple control room guys he knocks out and the search party, who we don't actually see I don't think.

    It also bothered me that they chose to add a monorail train but It just sits there and sets up the cut to the actual train. On a trivia note, though, it's one of the few villain lairs that survives the end of the film and isn't blown to hell.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,381
    That’s a good point! :) Are there any others?
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited March 2021 Posts: 8,216
    St. Cyril's Monastery in FYEO and the Monsoon Palace in Octopussy.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,114
    Maiden's Tower in TWINE too.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Maiden's Tower in TWINE too.

    Ah yes, excellent!

    I suppose Silva's island might count then, too? Even though it only features for about 15 minutes and it's in the middle of the film? :-?
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    Does Whitaker's place count in TLD? A quick sweep up and it would fetch a good price.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    Does Whitaker's place count in TLD? A quick sweep up and it would fetch a good price.

    A lovely shaded garden and pool area, to boot!
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    Does Whitaker's place count in TLD? A quick sweep up and it would fetch a good price.

    A lovely shaded garden and pool area, to boot!

    'Well presented throughout' it says on Right Move.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    I love Kananga's lair! One of my favorites! And TMWTGG has some of the best production design in the series: the Queen Elizabeth, Scaramanga's living/dining area, Lazar's workshop. Love it.

    To be controversial: I don't think the volcano base or supertanker are particularly great sets. They're great construction projects of course, but the volcano base is only very interesting or impressive in distant shots, where you can't see what anybody's doing anyway. In YOLT, they keep pulling back and doing establishment shots to remind you "We really built this whole thing" but there's no real way to shoot anything interesting on it because when you get down to where you can see faces and action it's just a lot of brown rock.

    Ken Adam's best work was easily on Dr No, though he did make some great large sets on Moonraker, where it's not overboard in scope and you actually have things to look at even when you're up close. The non-volcano sets in YOLT are wonderful too.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,381
    Osato's office is one of my favourite of his sets.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,114
    @CraigMooreOHMSS Also, GF's Auric Stud and Largo's Palmyra survive their films too :)
    I think together with @FatherValentine's submission from TLD we've got them all now.
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