Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    I don't think it'll be nice, no. And as much as I don't want to invite the topic, I think the hysterical social climate will be the biggest issue.

    If it's a white Bond, there will be a lot of press negativity, along with headlines like "Nobody does it whiter", and probably a lingering feeling among the more strident that the actor has unjustly "taken" a role that rightfully belongs to a person of color.

    If it's not a white Bond, we can be certain that the absolute worst fan reactions will be given maximal attention in articles about how the Bond fan community has major problems and how it's not surprising given the type of character Bond is or the type man Fleming was. After the film is released, we may likely even have some articles suggesting that the new Bond is inauthentic in some way, not reflecting the "lived experience" of POC.

    There will lots of ugliness either way.

    I don't mind either way what background the new Bond has and I have total confidence in EON to get the right man for the job. I just sort of wish they'd already had a non-white Bond at some point so the issue wouldn't have to come to a head at this annoying moment.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    I don't think it'll be nice, no. And as much as I don't want to invite the topic, I think the hysterical social climate will be the biggest issue.

    If it's a white Bond, there will be a lot of press negativity, along with headlines like "Nobody does it whiter", and probably a lingering feeling among the more strident that the actor has unjustly "taken" a role that rightfully belongs to a person of color.

    I really don't think it will be that bad. There will be a couple of provocative articles in The Guardian or whatever and a few outspoken people on Twitter trying to start an argument, but beyond that I don't see it causing all that much of a ruckus.

  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,177
    I presume the whole "Why not a black Bond?", "Why not a LGBTQ Bond?", "Why not a female Bond?" debate will come again, and then go again. I don't expect too much trouble.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    How come the world is divided into whites and everyone else?
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    Well this has gone down a fun path.
  • Posts: 12,837
    I don't think it'll be nice, no. And as much as I don't want to invite the topic, I think the hysterical social climate will be the biggest issue.

    If it's a white Bond, there will be a lot of press negativity, along with headlines like "Nobody does it whiter", and probably a lingering feeling among the more strident that the actor has unjustly "taken" a role that rightfully belongs to a person of color.

    If it's not a white Bond, we can be certain that the absolute worst fan reactions will be given maximal attention in articles about how the Bond fan community has major problems and how it's not surprising given the type of character Bond is or the type man Fleming was. After the film is released, we may likely even have some articles suggesting that the new Bond is inauthentic in some way, not reflecting the "lived experience" of POC.

    There will lots of ugliness either way.

    I don't mind either way what background the new Bond has and I have total confidence in EON to get the right man for the job. I just sort of wish they'd already had a non-white Bond at some point so the issue wouldn't have to come to a head at this annoying moment.

    I can see where you’re coming from to be fair. It probably would’ve been easier ten years ago, and as much as I’ve always said I don’t mind either way, I sort of wish they’d done it already too, to save us the inevitable arguments. But I agree with @mtm personally, I think the culture war stuff from both sides is always made out to be a bigger deal than it is.

    Look at what happened with Doctor Who. The current show still gets criticism (quite rightly imo, it’s been pretty poor), but the character’s gender never comes up in conversation anymore. When the next Bond is cast, there’ll be a bit of manufactured, click baity online arguing about it, then after a while the only people left talking about his race will be on sites like this.
  • Posts: 1,630
    My preference for Idris Elba in the role has nothing to do with race. It has everything to do with his being spot-on for the part. He's British, he's tall and built and believable when his character engages in action, fights and everything else. He can act very well over a broad range of material. He's smooth, handsome-but-tough, with a hint of cruelty in the Book-Bondian and Connery way. That's as close as needed to looking like Hoagy Carmichael. Fleming didn't say Bond was a twin of HC, folks. Connery, Dalton, Craig and Elba, by the way, have the vertical-lines-in-the-face feature also possessed by Hoagy C. People on this site keep mentioning the names of these boring, uninteresting pretty boys who simply would NOT be credible. Good grief ! For anyone who still promotes Richard Madden please watch The Take, which has both Elba and Madden in it. It was man and little youngster time. Even the Madden character remarked upon it in the course of the film. Now it's Nicholas Hoult's name coming forward in many a post. Same problem. Not distinctive, not credible.
  • edited April 2021 Posts: 1,469
    First, I think Bond should stay a white man and English, or at least from the UK, because that's how Fleming created him, and it fits the Bond narrative very well. There must be enough good white actors to choose from. As to the idea some have of choosing a black actor because of social changes and so-called "white privilege", being white hasn't prevented Bond from enduring all manner of terrible experiences. Just off the top of my head: his new wife was murdered; he was shot (twice) and fell into a raging river; poisoned and passed out; had his balls whacked and spent time in hospital because of it; pushed out of a plane; almost passed out in a centrifuge; tortured with drills; car crash; had his spine stretched on a motorized traction table...
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    Thrasos wrote: »
    As to the idea some have of choosing a black actor because of social changes and so-called "white privilege", being white hasn't prevented Bond from enduring all manner of terrible experiences.

    That is quite the leap of logic! :)

    Since62 wrote: »
    My preference for Idris Elba in the role has nothing to do with race. It has everything to do with his being spot-on for the part. He's British, he's tall and built and believable when his character engages in action, fights and everything else. He can act very well over a broad range of material. He's smooth, handsome-but-tough, with a hint of cruelty in the Book-Bondian and Connery way.

    I tend to agree that Elba would have been a good fit: most essentially a lot of women seem to find him very sexy! :) And he’s got a definite alpha male presence and can lead a film. But: too old now.
  • Posts: 7,507
    Since62 wrote: »
    My preference for Idris Elba in the role has nothing to do with race. It has everything to do with his being spot-on for the part. He's British, he's tall and built and believable when his character engages in action, fights and everything else. He can act very well over a broad range of material. He's smooth, handsome-but-tough, with a hint of cruelty in the Book-Bondian and Connery way. That's as close as needed to looking like Hoagy Carmichael. Fleming didn't say Bond was a twin of HC, folks. Connery, Dalton, Craig and Elba, by the way, have the vertical-lines-in-the-face feature also possessed by Hoagy C. People on this site keep mentioning the names of these boring, uninteresting pretty boys who simply would NOT be credible. Good grief ! For anyone who still promotes Richard Madden please watch The Take, which has both Elba and Madden in it. It was man and little youngster time. Even the Madden character remarked upon it in the course of the film. Now it's Nicholas Hoult's name coming forward in many a post. Same problem. Not distinctive, not credible.

    I agree with a lot of this. If Idris Elba was ten years younger, I would not have minded him being the next Bond. He does tick a lot of the boxes required for the role. At this age however, if you cast him you are looking at a realistic prospect of perhaps two films before he would be to old to be credible in the part, and both I and EON I presume, would like a new actor to be able to do at least four films, ideally 5-7. Just like with Michael Fassbender, another actor I think would make a great Bond, timing is not on Elba's side...

    Regarding the question of a black Bond, intent has everything to do with it for me. If the ideal actor for the part happens to be black, his race should not disqualify him. If you hire a black actor merely for the purpose of hiring a black actor however, that would be very problematic...
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    jobo wrote: »
    Regarding the question of a black Bond, intent has everything to do with it for me. If the ideal actor for the part happens to be black, his race should not disqualify him. If you hire a black actor merely for the purpose of hiring a black actor however, that would be very problematic...

    I don't think there would be any way of telling that though: it's not as if there's only ever one man in the world capable of playing the part at any one time. I don't think there's anything wrong with making that choice if it's something they want to do; they'd clearly be picking someone who's really good no matter what.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,293
    mtm wrote: »
    Well this has gone down a fun path.

    LOL.
  • edited April 2021 Posts: 113
    BT3366 wrote: »
    Not calling you out, but I've seen this claim about Universal Studios being the base for DAF's production here multiple times now and had never heard that from any other source before. Was there an article or book where this was claimed previously? I know they were going for a more American-feel but it just seems abrupt, although understandable given Vegas was the primary location.

    I can't remember where it was but Hamilton, Adam and others made it clear they would have been at Universal and had to start dealing with US crews. They did eventually use a lot of US effects men and had to fight to be able to use Ted Moore.



  • Posts: 113
    Wilson has been pretty clear that they don't adapt the continuation novels because they not only think they can make better original stories but that it's simply cheaper than paying royalties to those who wrote the novels.

    Besides, a novel having weird structures isn't an issue EON can't handle. By the time COLONEL SUN came out they were already taking giant liberties with the source material and doing their own thing. If they really wanted to adapt it, they could have easily found a way to make it work with heavy alterations.

    So, will we ever see adaptations of continuation novels? I think once EON is controlled by producers that aren't Michael G. Wilson and Barbara Broccoli, then MAYBE. But by then, how many of the continuation novels would be outdated? Would we just go back to using titles? I do think LICENCE RENEWED makes a cute meta title not only because it was the first novel in many years but it could serve for a new Bond actor taking the role.
    This absolutely. The more you read them and the more time that passes-they don't hold up as well but still are chock full of great ideas. I agree LR is a great title and one could use the structure of it to do a back to basics Bond story.
  • Posts: 1,917
    [quote="
    Wilson has been pretty clear that they don't adapt the continuation novels because they not only think they can make better original stories but that it's simply cheaper than paying royalties to those who wrote the novels.

    Besides, a novel having weird structures isn't an issue EON can't handle. By the time COLONEL SUN came out they were already taking giant liberties with the source material and doing their own thing. If they really wanted to adapt it, they could have easily found a way to make it work with heavy alterations.

    So, will we ever see adaptations of continuation novels? I think once EON is controlled by producers that aren't Michael G. Wilson and Barbara Broccoli, then MAYBE. But by then, how many of the continuation novels would be outdated? Would we just go back to using titles? I do think LICENCE RENEWED makes a cute meta title not only because it was the first novel in many years but it could serve for a new Bond actor taking the role.
    This absolutely. The more you read them and the more time that passes-they don't hold up as well but still are chock full of great ideas. I agree LR is a great title and one could use the structure of it to do a back to basics Bond story.

    It just came to mind that the Gardner revival starting with LR is celebrating its 40th anniversary this year, I believe this spring. It was a pretty big deal at the time, that followed by the release of FYEO a couple months later.
  • echo wrote: »
    Craig will be almost as difficult to replace as Connery. I don't envy Eon.
    I agree. While I'm excited at the prospect of seeing Fukunaga's take on Bond, it is clear that an alternative Bond 25 released before the pandemic would have facilitated the future of the franchise. Craig's tenure would have been seen as something of the past and when the movie industry had taken off again, the audience would already have been ready to move on.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    That will still happen though: we didn’t need a pandemic to move on from a Bond actor.
  • mtm wrote: »
    That will still happen though: we didn’t need a pandemic to move on from a Bond actor.
    Admittedly, but given the time lapse between each film on the one hand and on the other the fact that Craig is now the actor who held the role for the longest time, Eon will probably take its time before beginning production on the next installment. Honestly, I don't think we'll see Bond 26 before 2025 or even 2026. A date that would have been much closer if Eon had stuck with Boyle and released B25 at the end of 2020. The pandemic would have been a good way to let time pass before the audience accepts the introduction of a new actor.
  • Posts: 15,116
    mtm wrote: »
    That will still happen though: we didn’t need a pandemic to move on from a Bond actor.
    Admittedly, but given the time lapse between each film on the one hand and on the other the fact that Craig is now the actor who held the role for the longest time, Eon will probably take its time before beginning production on the next installment. Honestly, I don't think we'll see Bond 26 before 2025 or even 2026. A date that would have been much closer if Eon had stuck with Boyle and released B25 at the end of 2020. The pandemic would have been a good way to let time pass before the audience accepts the introduction of a new actor.

    Which means most of the actors mentioned as potential successor to Craig these days don't stand a chance to get it.
  • Posts: 15,116
    Moneypenny at the wedding in OHMSS was the last great Moneypenny moment. While the character remained a staple of the franchise, she never came back as good.
  • Posts: 7,507
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Moneypenny at the wedding in OHMSS was the last great Moneypenny moment. While the character remained a staple of the franchise, she never came back as good.

    I think the shaving scene in SF is brilliant! Apart from that you are quite right, sadly...
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Moneypenny at the wedding in OHMSS was the last great Moneypenny moment. While the character remained a staple of the franchise, she never came back as good.

    I liked it that the very next time we saw her after James' ill-fated wedding, she made a crass joke about him bringing her an engagement ring :D
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited May 2021 Posts: 18,270
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Moneypenny at the wedding in OHMSS was the last great Moneypenny moment. While the character remained a staple of the franchise, she never came back as good.

    I suppose she had a bit of a fiesty character (along with most of the other MI6 regulars) in TMWTGG but that's about the only such scene of character for the classic Lois Maxwell Moneypenny that I can really think of. Other attempts at giving her a bit more to do character wise are to be found in OP and AVTAK but I agree it's all a far cry from the halcyon days of the 1960s Bond films. Moneypenny in TSWLM and MR has virtually nothing to do but crack corny jokes in blink-and-you'll-miss-her scenes.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited April 2021 Posts: 16,382
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Moneypenny at the wedding in OHMSS was the last great Moneypenny moment. While the character remained a staple of the franchise, she never came back as good.

    I suppose she had a bit of a fiesty character (along with most of the other MI6 regulars) in TMWTGG but that's about the only such scene of character fir the classic Lois Maxwell Moneypenny that I can really think of. Other attempts at giving her a bit more to do character wise are to be found in OP and AVTAK but I agree it's all a far cry from the halcyon days of the 1960s Bond films. Moneypenny in TSWLM and MR has virtually nothing to do but crack corny jokes in blink-and-you'll-miss-her scenes.

    That's a good point about those two films: her and Roger bounce off each other really well so considering those ones are pretty fun-heavy it's a surprise she's barely in them.
    She should really have at least been in the scene where they burst in on Drax in gasmasks.

    My controversial opinion on her is, for all the talk of how the actor playing Bond must be British, why does no-one seem to notice that Moneypenny turns Canadian after a few films? :D
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited April 2021 Posts: 18,270
    mtm wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Moneypenny at the wedding in OHMSS was the last great Moneypenny moment. While the character remained a staple of the franchise, she never came back as good.

    I suppose she had a bit of a fiesty character (along with most of the other MI6 regulars) in TMWTGG but that's about the only such scene of character fir the classic Lois Maxwell Moneypenny that I can really think of. Other attempts at giving her a bit more to do character wise are to be found in OP and AVTAK but I agree it's all a far cry from the halcyon days of the 1960s Bond films. Moneypenny in TSWLM and MR has virtually nothing to do but crack corny jokes in blink-and-you'll-miss-her scenes.

    That's a good point about those two films: her and Roger bounce off each other really well so considering those ones are pretty fun-heavy it's a surprise she's barely in them.
    She should really have at least been in the scene where they burst in on Drax in gasmasks.

    My controversial opinion on her is, for all the talk of how the actor playing Bond must be British, why does no-one seem to notice that Moneypenny turns Canadian after a few films? :D

    Yes, they throw away the Moneypenny character in both of those films in my opinion. She just seems to be there as a sounding board to react incredulously to Moore Bond's latest death defying stunt and then tell him he's late and that M and Co. are already waiting for him and he better hurry up etc. All well below standard stuff.

    That's a good point you raise too about Moore and Maxwell bouncing off each other well. They do and of course they both studied together (and were friends) at RADA and were both born in the same year so it's extra nice to see that friendship replicated on screen. It's a real shame she wasn't given a bit more to do in some of the Moore Bond films, especially TSWLM and MR where her role was vastly reduced. It makes you wonder why they hired the actress at all if that was all they were going to give her to do. I suppose it can only really be seen as placeholder scenes for the character until they found something more meaningful for her to do with the role. It seems that screenwriter Christopher Wood was strangely out of his comfort zone when it came to writing good scenes between Bond and Moneypenny.

    On Moneypenny's accent turning Canadian as the Bobd films progress, I can't day that I've noticed that but I'll certainly be on the lookout for it from now on!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    Yeah I'm sure she starts out as putting on a British accent, but by the end she's shouting "Move your ass!" at horses :D

    It is quite interesting now you mention it, than her relationship with Connery's Bond was obviously one of just plain fancying him, but her and Roger's Bond do actually seem to be more friends and she almost teases him more than he does her.
  • Posts: 15,116
    jobo wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Moneypenny at the wedding in OHMSS was the last great Moneypenny moment. While the character remained a staple of the franchise, she never came back as good.

    I think the shaving scene in SF is brilliant! Apart from that you are quite right, sadly...

    I love the shaving scene. But she was not revealed as Moneypenny then, for one, so it's more of an Eve/Bond moment if that makes sense. It's also almost too sexy for Moneypenny, but that is another debate entirely.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    My favorite Moneypenny scenes (at least outside OHMSS) are in TLD. It's the first (only?) time we see her doing identifiably relevant work, and it's great. I love Lois throughout her tenure, but it is a shame they never considered giving her anything to do.
  • Posts: 15,116
    My favorite Moneypenny scenes (at least outside OHMSS) are in TLD. It's the first (only?) time we see her doing identifiably relevant work, and it's great. I love Lois throughout her tenure, but it is a shame they never considered giving her anything to do.

    To be fair, she's a secretary. She's got a lot to do sure, especially with such employer, but in the end, it remains secretarial work. In the early days, she was mostly a comic relief character. And don't get me wrong: I love Moneypenny. But in her case, less is really more: give her little to do, but make it memorable.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,177
    I prefer this Moneypenny's work ethics:

    james-bond-barbara-bouchet.jpg
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