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Yes, he does have an edge in TSWLM. I always find it strange why it's so well known that Moore was uneasy about kicking locque off the cliff in FYEO. Yet that is no worse than the tie kill in Spy or shooting Stromberg several times as he is sitting AND dying.
Just a thought.
Exactly :)
Of course I like all the Bond films. As I've said on several occasions, I'd gladly rewatch my least favourite Bond film any day of the week.
I was merely saying something along the lines of: I'd rate my least favourite Moore entry an 8 out of 10, while I'd rate my least favourite Connery/Brosnan/Craig entry a 6 or a 7 (which are still way above average).
Yes he's definitely got more cold killer moments in the Lewis Gilbert films than he has in the Glen films, even despite the cliff kick. Stromberg doesn't even get a witticism to soften the kill: he just shoots him in cold blood. Loads!
It's hard to imagine the Roger of AVTAK doing that. I can't even remember if he intentionally kills anyone apart from Zorin (very much a fight for survival rather than cold blood) after the credits, does he?
I can only think of three (the helicopter pilots and Zorin) in the entire movie. His lowest body count? :)
Agreed entirely. When he kills Sandor it is genuinely one of Bond's coldest kills. It is such a ruthless moment they resurrect the move for Daniel Craig to use in QoS.
Moore in TMWTGG and TSWLM has got an edge equal to Connery's portrayal imo.
The Stromberg kill does feel quite mean and nasty considering the kind of film TSWLM is, tonally. Mind you, Jaws does vampire bite a couple of people to death, too....
I think "speak now or forever hold your piece" might be one of my favourite Moore moments.
I like this performance a lot too as it really stands out. He's a bit more Connery-like here whereas his performances in most of the other 6 are pretty interchangeable. I especially like that smile he gives after M encourages him to seek out Scaramanga. It's less like Roger Moore playing Bond as himself and more like his take on Fleming's Bond. While TSWLM has its violent Bond moments these are also balanced by the start of the Moore grin/smirk that loses a lot of points for me.
I'm curious on something: If you don't care for LTK's personal plot, then how do you feel about just about every succeeding film as each has that factor in increasing doses.
Also, LALD has drug running as its plot but it never gets anywhere near the criticism LTK does for the same thing.
Refreshing to read someone list LALD and FYEO as his least favorite Rog Bond films. I usually see those 002 and TSWLM always listed as his top 003. (Speaking for myself, MR, OP and TMWTGG are my top 003 of his.)
ITA. And at age 46 he looks like he could pass for 10 years younger in that particular film.
It used to be like this, but I don't think they'll remain my least favourites of his. They might join OP in my Rog top 3 actually.
I think sometimes when we just don't care for a movie we try to hard to think of objective reasons for it and they're not really legit.
Not only does LALD have drugs as its plot, but other movies have even less significant villain schemes. The scheme in FRWL is to kill James Bond. In CR, it's to pay off debt by winning a poker match. In TMWTGG, it's apparently to utilize stolen solar power.
I also tend to find the "Americanization" complaint odd. In a series produced by Americans, written mostly by Americans, and regularly featuring American performers, it's hard to see why a particular entry might be "too Americanized".
The main scheme was to steal the Lektor decoding device by using Bond, and then selling it back to the Russians at a very high price. Killing Bond was really just the cherry on top. Extortion with a side of revenge.
Ah, true. That's also relatively small potatoes, but indeed I must have had the novel more in mind.
I'll have to reread maybe, but I thought the booby-trapped Spektor was more of a cherry on top. The killing of Bond and the humiliation of the Service seemed to be the point....
In any case, the killing of Bond is what actually drives both narratives. Franz Sanchez is going to shoot down an airliner, but it's not really the point. Like the booby-trapped Spektor, it wouldn't appear in most plot summaries.
I sure agree. When fans criticize certain Bond films for not having a grandiose enough villain's scheme, I scratch my head. It used to be a common complaint about QoS a couple of years ago, which was highly ironic considering that Quantums plans in that film is far more threatening than Le Chifre's in CR or Silva's in SF, who basically just wants to kill M. OTT villain's schemes is only a factor in certain films, primarily the ones parodied in Austin Powers. It is not a requirement and some of the best films in the series feature fairly low key threats.
Right. You don't have to love QoS, but if you rank the films in order of how consequential the schemes are, it's probably not even in the bottom ten.
Speaking of consequential, and returning to FRWL, the most consequential and dangerous event in that film is surely British agents blowing up a Soviet embassy in Istanbul in 1963! Not anything Spectre was up to.
It's not even stolen! The villains' plot is to do legitimate business and James Bond messes it up! :)
Sure, one of them kills his business partner, but that's still none of Bond's business :D
Controversial opinion about MWTGG: Bond is the baddie!
Yes, I always think Bond really messes that up. The embassy isn't destroyed enough for them not to notice the Lektor has gone: so just change the codes. A bit like with the ATAC in FYEO: surely the easiest solution is to change the codes. I get that it's a bit of a faff, but when you're talking about the security of your country it seems worth the effort!
Sure the Miami Vice influences are there - though not as much as many would have you believe - but I love that show, so as far as I'm concerned that's not a bad thing per se.
--GE, Trevelyan plans to destroy Britain's economy.
--TND, Bond thwarts war between China and Britain.
--TWINE, Bond prevents a nuclear explosion in a sub in a city that was meant to increase the value of an oil pipeline.
--DAD involves a mirror satellite in space to use as a sun gun to force North Korea's invasion of South Korea.
After that, yes, we get into more personal plots with CR and QoS. I rank CR high but QoS lower. Then,
--SF has a major explosion at the MI6 building, killing several people, and Silva going after the head of MI6.
--SP, Bond thwarts a terrorist attack in Mexico City, and SPECTRE is behind the global intelligence network Nine Eyes, which would shut down the Double-Oh section.
I think SP has a better plot and is better overall than LTK.
On the subject of Spectre, I'll always say the film was a good first draft that needed a lot of work.
Love this. The usual critiques about Bond copying things with certain movies are lazy, boring, and generally exaggerated, I think. DAF made a lot more money than Shaft did in 1971, and LALD doesn't really feel much like a blaxploitation movie. It has more screentime that's reminiscent of later stuff, like Smokey and the Bandit. LALD made more money than Enter the Dragon in 1973, and the martial arts in TMWTGG make up just a few minutes in the middle and are less emphasized in the marketing than is the return of JW Pepper. Surely if you're trying to capitalize on commercial trends, you'd do it slightly differently.
As for LTK, if you have to make a movie in 1989 that involves drugs and Florida, you couldn't make it resemble Miami Vice much less. Imagine the very easy changes you would make if you were trying to ape that series: you've got a couple DEA agents that could have been done in a very different style. You could have filmed in much cooler locations. Remember, the movie was originally going to be done in China, and as with TMWTGG and marital arts, the Miami Vicey aspects, to whatever extent they exist, weren't emphasized in the (terrible) marketing campaign.
When people talk about their preference for more "realistic/gritty" Bond films like FRWL, I have to laugh a bit. Sure, Moonraker asks you to accept a world where the US has Space Marines with laser guns ready to go, but once you're there, characters generally behave in ways that make some sort of sense. A lot of the decision-making to be seen in FRWL (or CR!) is downright baffling.
:-? I guess I need to watch more Murder She Wrote. I just can't see what you mean, really. I also don't see much stylistic difference between TLD and the three Glen films that preceded it....
In any case, surely TLD is a more traditional James Bond adventure than any of Craig's first three films?
Another controversial opinion: I prefer the novelization to the movie TSWLM.
Plus it's also got a guy in a Bond mask and dinner suit being killed in an exercise, an island full of assassins being trained in an assault course (with flamethrowers!), an evil villain on a yacht with a white cat and fighting fish etc. It's pretty ridiculous as well as making not much sense! :)
As you say: not exactly 'gritty'. And yes: the Russians are hardly likely going to want to buy the Lektor back off Spectre because once it's been out of their hands they know their codes are compromised. For all they know Spectre is selling a set of the blueprints of the machine to the Americans at the same time. It's a pretty stupid plan.
Basically it's a bit like if the local burglar knocked on your door and handed over your doorkeys which you'd dropped in the street. Would you say thank you and forget all about it or would you have the locks changed as soon as possible? :D
QoS is a pretty trad Bond film isn't it? Evil villain with evil plan, Bond goes out to stop him. It's even got a big exploding evil base at the end, which TLD doesn't have.
Actually I ageee on QoS. It's a huge step in the classic Bond direction from CR. It's not quite "business as usual" as TLD is, for sure, but of those three Craig ones, it's by far the most classic Bond.
And yeah, I could have gone on and on about FRWL (a movie I of course like!). I mean Spectre Island alone is absolute silliness. Which is good! But it's not the movie an awful lot of people think it is!
And tying in with the "Bond copying trends" issue, it clearly steals from Hitchcock more than LALD does blaxploitation, or TMWTGG does martial arts, or LTK does Miami Vice. It's not even close.
Yes it's already on dodgy ground with the train stuff (as well as the blonde of course) and then they do that helicopter scene...
I know that Licence to Kill is criticised being being overly Americanised and influenced by things like the contemporaneous Miami Vice TV series. I'm however not aware of any similar criticisms of Dalton's first Bond film The Living Daylights. Granted it did feature an American main villain in the form of Bard Whitaker and they historically have not fared well as villains in neither the Bond films or novels (one thinks of the weak tea villainy of the Spang Brothers in Fleming's Diamonds Are Forever) but I can't see how Bond or the film is Americanised. Perhaps you can clarify your point? Far from not being proper Bond films I consider the two Dalton films, Lazenby's OHMSS and the early faithful Connery films to be the most proper adaptations of Fleming's work in the Bond film series.
Also, as a major fan of both Bond and Columbo I can only say that if the Bond films had had the consistency of good writing, tight plotting and stellar acting and direction that that show exhibited it would have been doing all right!
Though I would consider grit and realism in filmmaking terms to be different things, I must admit that I prefer using the terms "atmospheric" and "low key" when talking about films like FRWL, likely for reasons that overlap with what you're saying here. I don't think there has ever really been a "realistic" Bond film in the truest sense.
Maybe Dr No (and I stress the maybe), but that likely was only due to budget restraints!
Since I was curious about this, I think this is the last community film ranking...correct me if I'm wrong. From the "Bond film ranking tournament" thread, June 2020.
Last month we've also done a ranking game and this is how it turned out:
1. ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE
2. CASINO ROYALE
3. FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE
4. Goldfinger
5. The Living Daylights / GoldenEye
7. Dr. No
8. The Spy Who Loved Me
9. Skyfall
10. Thunderball
11. Live and Let Die / Licence to Kill
13. For Your Eyes Only
14. Quantum of Solace
15. Octopussy
16. Moonraker
17. You Only Live Twice
18. Tomorrow Never Dies
19. The Man with the Golden Gun
20. The World Is Not Enough
21. A View to a Kill
22. Spectre
23. Diamonds Are Forever
24. Die Another Day
25. Never Say Never Again