Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • Posts: 6,396
    fjdinardo wrote:
    Let me give this a try. Moonraker is my 2nd favorite Bond film of all time. Its the best Moore Bond film.

    I'll drink to that.

    Here's another: The Spy Who Loved Me is an overrated, dated, charmless, tedious bore that was the template for the worst excesses of the Brosnan era. When Harry Saltzman left, Bond lost a part of his soul.

    Spy also contains Moore's most smug and irritating performance as Bond and one of the worst Bond girls of all time. A mannequin would have been more convincing as Agent XXX.

    I would reply to that normally but I'd just make myself angry.
  • Posts: 1,970
    fjdinardo wrote:
    Let me give this a try. Moonraker is my 2nd favorite Bond film of all time. Its the best Moore Bond film.

    I'll drink to that.

    Here's another: The Spy Who Loved Me is an overrated, dated, charmless, tedious bore that was the template for the worst excesses of the Brosnan era. When Harry Saltzman left, Bond lost a part of his soul.

    Spy also contains Moore's most smug and irritating performance as Bond and one of the worst Bond girls of all time. A mannequin would have been more convincing as Agent XXX.

    oh snap and im dead serious when I say Moonraker is my 2nd favorite Bond film of all time and that its the best Moore Bond film
  • edited October 2013 Posts: 2,483
    fjdinardo wrote:
    Let me give this a try. Moonraker is my 2nd favorite Bond film of all time. Its the best Moore Bond film.

    I'll drink to that.

    Here's another: The Spy Who Loved Me is an overrated, dated, charmless, tedious bore that was the template for the worst excesses of the Brosnan era. When Harry Saltzman left, Bond lost a part of his soul.

    Spy also contains Moore's most smug and irritating performance as Bond and one of the worst Bond girls of all time. A mannequin would have been more convincing as Agent XXX.

    I can go along with that part of your opinion (Bach is down there with Berry and Richards as the worst main Bond girls), but not the rest of it. I think Spy's rating--at least among serious Bond fans--is about right. And what one man considers dated another man views with wistful nostalgia; that's the way I feel about Spy. As far as being charmless, I find that epithet far more appropriate to QOS.

  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    edited October 2013 Posts: 13,355
    I too, agree with much of what you say about The Spy Who Loved Me @minorMajor9th. A smug Moore, bad Bond girl, all out action; it very much is a template for Brosnan's films, bar GoldenEye.
  • Posts: 1,146
    I agree but must defend Godleneye, which featured a kinetic, energetic Bond that raced through the story. That picture was shot with style, which can also be seen in Casino Royale. All that dissappeared after Goldeneye.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Dragonpol wrote:
    Here's a controversial opinion, but I'd rather watch the flawed Quantum than any of the Moore films.

    Not controversial, I'd say. Well to an extent. OP and TSWLM are certainly better but I'd probably take it over any of the other five.

    What, no love for FYEO?

    Gaaah, how did I forget that one? Add it along with OP and TSWLM.

    Yes I agree that FYEO and TSWLM as excellent. OP is still good despite the Tarzan/Clown scenes.

    I've warmed a lot to the clown sequence. He needed a disguise, the only problem with it is that he changes into it in three seconds. It used to be the reason OP was at or near the bottom of my list all the time. But the past few years have been most kind to it for me. It is a very well made film with Rog at his best, and despite the camp that permeates it I find it very faithful to Fleming. It uses the short story (as well as material from other Fleming tales) very well. Kamal Khan is also one of the best villains ever. Overall, OP sits comfortably at #10 for me.

    And that's my main beef with that sequence. I like the scene when he is disarming the bomb. It's a really well shot and suspense filled moment but the fact that he has changed into the clown outfit and applied a ton of make up in no time at all is just annoying.

    Err where's the evidence he does it in 3 seconds?

    There's a concept in cinema called the 'cut'. What happens is you 'cut' from one scene to another and it doesn't necessarily happen in real time.

    God knows how you reconcile DN when Bond shags Sylvia, drives to the airport, goes through customs, has a fag and a drink in the departure lounge and flies to Jamaica. Did that all take place in 3 seconds too? And as for Pulp Fiction and Memento - they must have you beating your head on the floor in confusion.

    I'll grant you the tears on the cheek are a step too far given Bond defused the bomb with one second to spare - I don't think the security guard would have rumbled him if he hadn't had them and the extra 30 seconds would have given him a little breathing space.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    fjdinardo wrote:
    Let me give this a try. Moonraker is my 2nd favorite Bond film of all time. Its the best Moore Bond film.

    I'll drink to that.

    Here's another: The Spy Who Loved Me is an overrated, dated, charmless, tedious bore that was the template for the worst excesses of the Brosnan era. When Harry Saltzman left, Bond lost a part of his soul.

    Spy also contains Moore's most smug and irritating performance as Bond and one of the worst Bond girls of all time. A mannequin would have been more convincing as Agent XXX.
    Yup, during my last marathon that's how I felt. MR is the better film because it feels more comfortable in its absurdity, where TSWLM tries to inject conflict with XXX but it falls flat.
  • Posts: 2,402
    Dragonpol wrote:
    Here's a controversial opinion, but I'd rather watch the flawed Quantum than any of the Moore films.

    Not controversial, I'd say. Well to an extent. OP and TSWLM are certainly better but I'd probably take it over any of the other five.

    What, no love for FYEO?

    Gaaah, how did I forget that one? Add it along with OP and TSWLM.

    Yes I agree that FYEO and TSWLM as excellent. OP is still good despite the Tarzan/Clown scenes.

    I've warmed a lot to the clown sequence. He needed a disguise, the only problem with it is that he changes into it in three seconds. It used to be the reason OP was at or near the bottom of my list all the time. But the past few years have been most kind to it for me. It is a very well made film with Rog at his best, and despite the camp that permeates it I find it very faithful to Fleming. It uses the short story (as well as material from other Fleming tales) very well. Kamal Khan is also one of the best villains ever. Overall, OP sits comfortably at #10 for me.

    And that's my main beef with that sequence. I like the scene when he is disarming the bomb. It's a really well shot and suspense filled moment but the fact that he has changed into the clown outfit and applied a ton of make up in no time at all is just annoying.

    Err where's the evidence he does it in 3 seconds?

    There's a concept in cinema called the 'cut'. What happens is you 'cut' from one scene to another and it doesn't necessarily happen in real time.

    God knows how you reconcile DN when Bond shags Sylvia, drives to the airport, goes through customs, has a fag and a drink in the departure lounge and flies to Jamaica. Did that all take place in 3 seconds too? And as for Pulp Fiction and Memento - they must have you beating your head on the floor in confusion.

    I'll grant you the tears on the cheek are a step too far given Bond defused the bomb with one second to spare - I don't think the security guard would have rumbled him if he hadn't had them and the extra 30 seconds would have given him a little breathing space.

    The fact that guards are swarming the trailers, and Bond is barely inside one before they get to it, yet alas, there's Bond in a clown costume!
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    edited October 2013 Posts: 7,314
    It's been a little while since I've seen OP but I believe that he changes in less than a minute according to the timer on the bomb. It doesn't ruin the film for me but it is pretty ridiculous.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    pachazo wrote:
    It's been a little while since I've seen OP but I believe that he changes in less than a minute according to the timer on the bomb. It doesn't ruin the film for me but it is pretty ridiculous.
    I've changed into costumes in about that time. Make-up included.
    But that was with practice....
    But it's POSSIBLE!
  • Controversial opinions....... I honestly preferred TND to GE. Both are great but I just enjoyed TND more, perhaps its satirical portrayal of the media gave it the edge to me .
  • edited October 2013 Posts: 12,837
    Goldfinger is one of the best Bond novels. The story is a bit stupid, and the way Fleming writes about lesbians and Koreans cringe worthy to say the least but GF is a great villain, Oddjob is a brilliant henchman (him being given the cat to eat is creepy), Bond is at his most human (actually all the characters are all fleshed out well) and just like all the Fleming books it's so descriptive that you can't stop reading it (I'm normally a slow reader but it didn't take me long to finish any of the Bond books).

    I also like how it ties into CR and DAF. Nice bit of continuity. Plus, Bond is in an Aston for the first time. There's a lot to like there imo.


    @minorMajor9th I think TSWLM is actually underrated, at least on this site. I don't see much love for it when I read the rankings thread.

    The disco score hasn't aged too well but I don't mind it. It would've been better with Barry but then so would've every Bond film without him. I don't see how it's dated in any other way, all the special effects still look brilliant imo.

    Don't see how it's charmless. Could you elaborate because I think there's plenty of charm, one of the wittiest scripts in the franchise.

    Tedious bore? I think it's well paced. It's not too slow or too fast and I can't remember the film dragging at any point last time I watched it.

    You say smug, I say confident. Moore has said that TSWLM was his favourite and it shows. He's having fun and seems much more comfortable than he was in LALD and TMWTGG. I think TSWLM is where he finally nailed his interpretation of Bond, there were no more hang overs from the Connery films (like when he pins down Andrea in TMWTGG).

    XXX could've been better but she's not as bad as the likes of Jinx, Goodnight and Stacey. Wai Lin was essentially a better version of her but I don't mind and I like the sub plot she has (dealing with Bond killing her boyfriend). The film didn't do too much with it but for once we see that every henchman Bond kills is a real person who are leaving people behind. I think the films should show that more often.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    fjdinardo wrote:
    Let me give this a try. Moonraker is my 2nd favorite Bond film of all time. Its the best Moore Bond film.

    I'll drink to that.

    Here's another: The Spy Who Loved Me is an overrated, dated, charmless, tedious bore that was the template for the worst excesses of the Brosnan era. When Harry Saltzman left, Bond lost a part of his soul.

    Spy also contains Moore's most smug and irritating performance as Bond and one of the worst Bond girls of all time. A mannequin would have been more convincing as Agent XXX.

    I've always preferred MR over TSWLM myself, too.
  • Posts: 6,396
    @Thelivingroyale TSWLM is my #1 Bond film so you won't hear any complaints from me ;-)
  • @WillyGalore It was one of the first Bond films I saw. The Lotus alone makes it a classic imo. Fantastic film :)
  • Posts: 6,396
    @WillyGalore It was one of the first Bond films I saw. The Lotus alone makes it a classic imo. Fantastic film :)

    We're along the same lines then. It was my very first Bond :-)
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited October 2013 Posts: 18,281
    @Thelivingroyale TSWLM is my #1 Bond film so you won't hear any complaints from me ;-)

    It does have something for sure, with the drama sub-plot and I do enjoy it immensely, but I think the action sequences are a little guilty of what Kingsley Amis called "second-sight sportsmanship":

    http://thebondologistblog.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/kingsley-amis-draxs-gambit-and-reform.html

    ^ An article from my The Bondologist Blog that may be of interest to you as it deals heavily with TSWLM! Martin Amis even gave a comment on it on the day it was published on the blog - 29 January 2013.
  • edited October 2013 Posts: 157
    The disco score hasn't aged too well but I don't mind it. It would've been better with Barry but then so would've every Bond film without him. I don't see how it's dated in any other way, all the special effects still look brilliant imo.

    I thought Angela Roma's suits and the rest of the wardrobe (henchmen's jumpsuits and the banana ski-suit) are pretty dated, as is Claude Renoir's very 70s diffused/washed out (probably using flashing) cinematography. Though the score more than anything makes the film feel cheaper and more American than it really is. Some parts of Bill Conti's FYEO have a similar TV/small scale feel, but not to the same degree as TSWLM.
    Don't see how it's charmless. Could you elaborate because I think there's plenty of charm, one of the wittiest scripts in the franchise.

    I thought all of Tom Mankiewicz's scrips were far wittier than any Christopher Woods (bar Drax's dialogue in MR), but the loss of charm is partly the loss of Harry's presence. His circus background gave the earlier films a local colour, a sense of place and a grittier, more down to earth atmosphere. They felt more like family produced films, rather than something dreamed up by a committee wanting to go for broke.
    Tedious bore? I think it's well paced. It's not too slow or too fast and I can't remember the film dragging at any point last time I watched it.

    I find the Cairo stuff soporific - I tend to fall asleep at the same time Bond and Anya nod off in Jaw's van. The briefing and train fight are pretty dull too - the later a poor retread of a scene we've seen two films before, and both never coming close to the original. Once we reach Sardina, the pace goes up a few gears, but hits another speedbump with the confession scene (Moore's quite good here, but he might as well be talking to a brick wall).
    You say smug, I say confident. Moore has said that TSWLM was his favourite and it shows. He's having fun and seems much more comfortable than he was in LALD and TMWTGG. I think TSWLM is where he finally nailed his interpretation of Bond, there were no more hang overs from the Connery films (like when he pins down Andrea in TMWTGG).

    I don't like it when Bond grills Andrea either, but as a whole I take Moore's performance in TMWTGG over his in TSWLM. He's tough, human, vulnerable, menacing and charming without being too smarmy (Bond mugging Anya when she tries to start the van has always mad me want to punch him in the face). There's a real sincerity to him in the dinner exchange with Scaramanga or his final scene with Andrea.
    XXX could've been better but she's not as bad as the likes of Jinx, Goodnight and Stacey.

    At least Jinx, Goodnight and Stacey had more than one emotion. Sure they were annoying and obnoxious, but I'd rather that than nothing at all.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    @minorMajor9th , you made a convincing argument here IMO!
  • Posts: 1,052
    I'm suprised by anyone prefering MR over TSWLM but hey that's opinions for you. Personally I think Spy is the far superior film and if any film could be guilty of having a smug Rog performance it would surley be MR?

    I don't understand the hate for Barbara Bach / XXX, ok not a gifted actress but it is good performance and a decent character.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    I'm suprised by anyone prefering MR over TSWLM but hey that's opinions for you. Personally I think Spy is the far superior film and if any film could be guilty of having a smug Rog performance it would surley be MR?

    I don't understand the hate for Barbara Bach / XXX, ok not a gifted actress but it is good performance and a decent character.

    I thought that this was what set TSWLM apart from YOLT and MR too, the grafted on sub-plot involving the killing by Bond of Anya's lover. It added a bit of drama to the proceedings which was welcome, though it's not hard to be cynical about it all either. I think I've always just preferred MR to TSWLM, but I like them both. I think MR has a better written and better realised plot than the film that preceded it which is literally full to the brim with plot holes.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Dragonpol wrote:
    I'm suprised by anyone prefering MR over TSWLM but hey that's opinions for you. Personally I think Spy is the far superior film and if any film could be guilty of having a smug Rog performance it would surley be MR?

    I don't understand the hate for Barbara Bach / XXX, ok not a gifted actress but it is good performance and a decent character.

    I thought that this was what set TSWLM apart from YOLT and MR too, the grafted on sub-plot involving the killing by Bond of Anya's lover. It added a bit of drama to the proceedings which was welcome, though it's not hard to be cynical about it all either. I think I've always just preferred MR to TSWLM, but I like them both. I think MR has a better written and better realised plot than the film that preceded it which is literally full to the brim with plot holes.

    I agree. TSWLM should be better as it has the added drama of Bond teaming up with a Russian whose lover he killed but Bach is so awful and the script perfunctory at best when dealing with this issue (which it then tosses away in the final reel) that it has very little impact on proceedings.

    I find TSWLM does lull in parts (Egypt mostly) whereas MR rattles along at a spectacular pace and showcases Rog's Bond and EON's 70s escapist pure entertainment Bond films at their absolute peak. MR just feels like the one where they got the Rog formula polished to perfection - although OP is probably my favourite Rog as I think the whole package is as polished as MR and Rog is again at his peak but the Cold War thrills of the final reel are better than everyone going to space.r
  • The Egypt parts can be a bit slow but there's some great cinematography to make up for it.
    (Bond mugging Anya when she tries to start the van has always mad me want to punch him in the face)

    I've always laughed at that bit. Love the fact that Bond's taking the piss while Jaws is tearing the van apart.
  • edited October 2013 Posts: 157
    @TheWizardofIce Nail. On. Head.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    James Bond sleeps with far too many women in the movies, generally speaking.
  • Posts: 1,146
    chrisisall wrote:
    James Bond sleeps with far too many women in the movies, generally speaking.

    ..Then you've missed the point, perhaps, lol.

    "tarzan swings from far too many vines."
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    chrisisall wrote:
    James Bond sleeps with far too many women in the movies, generally speaking.

    ..Then you've missed the point, perhaps, lol.

    "tarzan swings from far too many vines."

    Though not so much in the Fleming originals - blame the film versions for this "women coming out of the woodwork" approach.
  • edited October 2013 Posts: 63
    chrisisall wrote:
    James Bond sleeps with far too many women in the movies, generally speaking.
    Bond is a romantic first and for most. Brosnan knew this. Naked shoulders, nibbled to bits.

    "THEY FEAST"
  • Posts: 1,146
    Here's another controversial opinion, perhaps. George Lazenby is the second best Bond, after Sean. Craig is third.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Here's another controversial opinion, perhaps. George Lazenby is the second best Bond, after Sean. Craig is third.

    Not in the least bit controversial in my book mate.
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