Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • Posts: 15,116
    I do like quieter moments in Bond movies and I like when they are a bit longer.
  • Posts: 1,596
    Almost all of the action scenes in TWINE feel incredibly staged. They have a distinct second-unit feeling to them whereas the majority of the franchise's bigger set pieces do not. Particularly Parahawk and Caviar.
  • Posts: 2,163
    They feel designed for a video game, rather than a movie.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    And it was more fun as that N64 game!
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,296
    The quiet moments in QoS (Mathis' villa, Bond on the plane, the ending with M) are among the best in the series.
  • Junglist_1985Junglist_1985 Los Angeles
    Posts: 1,031
    echo wrote: »
    The quiet moments in QoS (Mathis' villa, Bond on the plane, the ending with M) are among the best in the series.

    Agreed 100%.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    There are a lot of really nice intimate moments in QoS. I also really like the scene with Bond and Camille in the cave, following the plane sequence.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    echo wrote: »
    The quiet moments in QoS (Mathis' villa, Bond on the plane, the ending with M) are among the best in the series.

    I do love those scenes. Quantum has quite a few of them. Which I why I'm so fond of it. Craig is brilliant in it. One of those movies that ends too soon.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited May 2021 Posts: 24,179
    Well, I think many SP-critics here also underestimate the power of some of the quieter moments in that film.

    Take notice, please. Most of the times when Bond and Madeline are together in the film, there's barely another soul nearby. The clinic feels all but deserted, 'l Américain (delicious scene!) feels like the scene takes place on another planet, the train car looks quite empty, the desert is--uh--deserted, even London by night looks almost completely in lockdown. These two souls are both furthermore parentless, disconnected from the world, adrift. Some have argued that these two have no chemistry. I disagree with that. I see them as introverts (it takes one to know one, I guess ;-) ), insulated and alone but not necessarily lonely, who have found each other. The connection that these two have is not foreign to me personally.

    We are treated to several quiet moments in SP, with Bond and Madeline at the heart of it. Even the score chooses a quieter, more ambient style in those moments. I am absolutely delighted to have them in the film. I find them quite frankly to be very romantic. Of all the "passions" Bond has had in the movies, this one may come closest to my deepest romantic fantasies, not merely because of Madeline, but also because this passion seemingly exists in a world devoid of prying eyes. That's my world. ;-)
  • ThunderballThunderball playing Chemin de Fer in a casino, downing Vespers
    edited May 2021 Posts: 814
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Well, I think many SP-critics here also underestimate the power of some of the quieter moments in that film.

    Take notice, please. Most of the times when Bond and Madeline are together in the film, there's barely another soul nearby. The clinic feels all but deserted, 'l Américain (delicious scene!) feels like the scene takes place on another planet, the train car looks quite empty, the desert is--uh--deserted, even London by night looks almost completely in lockdown. These two souls are both furthermore parentless, disconnected from the world, adrift. Some have argued that these two have no chemistry. I disagree with that. I see them as introverts (it takes one to know one, I guess ;-) ), insulated and alone but not necessarily lonely, who have found each other. The connection that these two have is not foreign to me personally.

    We are treated to several quiet moments in SP, with Bond and Madeline at the heart of it. Even the score chooses a quieter, more ambient style in those moments. I am absolutely delighted to have them in the film. I find them quite frankly to be very romantic. Of all the "passions" Bond has had in the movies, this one may come closest to my deepest romantic fantasies, not merely because of Madeline, but also because this passion seemingly exists in a world devoid of prying eyes. That's my world. ;-)

    100% agree. You’ve outlined perfectly one of the strengths of Spectre, and why some (me, for one) defend the film.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Well, I think many SP-critics here also underestimate the power of some of the quieter moments in that film.

    Take notice, please. Most of the times when Bond and Madeline are together in the film, there's barely another soul nearby. The clinic feels all but deserted, 'l Américain (delicious scene!) feels like the scene takes place on another planet, the train car looks quite empty, the desert is--uh--deserted, even London by night looks almost completely in lockdown. These two souls are both furthermore parentless, disconnected from the world, adrift. Some have argued that these two have no chemistry. I disagree with that. I see them as introverts (it takes one to know one, I guess ;-) ), insulated and alone but not necessarily lonely, who have found each other. The connection that these two have is not foreign to me personally.

    We are treated to several quiet moments in SP, with Bond and Madeline at the heart of it. Even the score chooses a quieter, more ambient style in those moments. I am absolutely delighted to have them in the film. I find them quite frankly to be very romantic. Of all the "passions" Bond has had in the movies, this one may come closest to my deepest romantic fantasies, not merely because of Madeline, but also because this passion seemingly exists in a world devoid of prying eyes. That's my world. ;-)

    'Quiet moments' they may be. But unfortunately with subpar dialogue.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Well, I think many SP-critics here also underestimate the power of some of the quieter moments in that film.

    Take notice, please. Most of the times when Bond and Madeline are together in the film, there's barely another soul nearby. The clinic feels all but deserted, 'l Américain (delicious scene!) feels like the scene takes place on another planet, the train car looks quite empty, the desert is--uh--deserted, even London by night looks almost completely in lockdown. These two souls are both furthermore parentless, disconnected from the world, adrift. Some have argued that these two have no chemistry. I disagree with that. I see them as introverts (it takes one to know one, I guess ;-) ), insulated and alone but not necessarily lonely, who have found each other. The connection that these two have is not foreign to me personally.

    We are treated to several quiet moments in SP, with Bond and Madeline at the heart of it. Even the score chooses a quieter, more ambient style in those moments. I am absolutely delighted to have them in the film. I find them quite frankly to be very romantic. Of all the "passions" Bond has had in the movies, this one may come closest to my deepest romantic fantasies, not merely because of Madeline, but also because this passion seemingly exists in a world devoid of prying eyes. That's my world. ;-)

    There are definitely a number of individually strong moments in the film. I wouldn't say they have no chemistry - but the idea that she falls in love with him is a hard sell for me. If they omitted the love bit and just had them grow together as partners without the declarations, it would have been much improved.

    One moment in SP that I absolutely adore is Bond dispatching Lucia's assassins. That's a fantastic scene. The setting, the lighting, the music choice. All great.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,970
    One of my favourite scenes in Spectre is actually the scene between Bond and Madeleine at L'Americain.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,296
    echo wrote: »
    The quiet moments in QoS (Mathis' villa, Bond on the plane, the ending with M) are among the best in the series.

    I do love those scenes. Quantum has quite a few of them. Which I why I'm so fond of it. Craig is brilliant in it. One of those movies that ends too soon.

    This is Forster's strength as a director. If he had leaned into those strengths, like Mendes did in SF, the film would have benefited greatly. QoS needed more Mathis, more Bond/Camille, more Leiter, and even, more Fields or Beam. He could have jettisoned some if not all of the generic action in favor of these characters.

    SF does not have a ton of action during its runtime, and the dramatic scenes always come first. Even in scenes like the attack on Parliament, Mendes manages to infuse the action with character.
  • Posts: 2,402
    One more opinion: GE, TND and DAD all have great sound mixes. TWINE sadly does not.

    While I think GE has an overall good sound mix, every explosion in GE sounds very puffy with no real "blast" to them (particularly when Arkangel'sk blows up and when the explosive pen takes out the fuel tanks in the control room). Unfortunately also agree about TWINE having a poor sound mix.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Well, I think many SP-critics here also underestimate the power of some of the quieter moments in that film.

    Take notice, please. Most of the times when Bond and Madeline are together in the film, there's barely another soul nearby. The clinic feels all but deserted, 'l Américain (delicious scene!) feels like the scene takes place on another planet, the train car looks quite empty, the desert is--uh--deserted, even London by night looks almost completely in lockdown. These two souls are both furthermore parentless, disconnected from the world, adrift. Some have argued that these two have no chemistry. I disagree with that. I see them as introverts (it takes one to know one, I guess ;-) ), insulated and alone but not necessarily lonely, who have found each other. The connection that these two have is not foreign to me personally.

    We are treated to several quiet moments in SP, with Bond and Madeline at the heart of it. Even the score chooses a quieter, more ambient style in those moments. I am absolutely delighted to have them in the film. I find them quite frankly to be very romantic. Of all the "passions" Bond has had in the movies, this one may come closest to my deepest romantic fantasies, not merely because of Madeline, but also because this passion seemingly exists in a world devoid of prying eyes. That's my world. ;-)

    'Quiet moments' they may be. But unfortunately with subpar dialogue.

    What's wrong with their dialogue? I don't know if lines like "I have no armour left--you've stripped it from me" are considered good by some, but I like the way Bond and Madeleine talk like human beings.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Well, I think many SP-critics here also underestimate the power of some of the quieter moments in that film.

    Take notice, please. Most of the times when Bond and Madeline are together in the film, there's barely another soul nearby. The clinic feels all but deserted, 'l Américain (delicious scene!) feels like the scene takes place on another planet, the train car looks quite empty, the desert is--uh--deserted, even London by night looks almost completely in lockdown. These two souls are both furthermore parentless, disconnected from the world, adrift. Some have argued that these two have no chemistry. I disagree with that. I see them as introverts (it takes one to know one, I guess ;-) ), insulated and alone but not necessarily lonely, who have found each other. The connection that these two have is not foreign to me personally.

    We are treated to several quiet moments in SP, with Bond and Madeline at the heart of it. Even the score chooses a quieter, more ambient style in those moments. I am absolutely delighted to have them in the film. I find them quite frankly to be very romantic. Of all the "passions" Bond has had in the movies, this one may come closest to my deepest romantic fantasies, not merely because of Madeline, but also because this passion seemingly exists in a world devoid of prying eyes. That's my world. ;-)

    'Quiet moments' they may be. But unfortunately with subpar dialogue.

    What's wrong with their dialogue? I don't know if lines like "I have no armour left--you've stripped it from me" are considered good by some, but I like the way Bond and Madeleine talk like human beings.

    I love CR, but I agree, @ProfJoeButcher, that Bond and Madeline talk like grown-ups. It's not as if the Bond films have a great tradition in dialogues between Bond and the lead girl. (That's not a complaint, by the way.) I fail to see how the childish interactions between Bond and Honey, or that "lovers' lesson number X" thing in LALD, or Bond lecturing Melina (and so on) are so much better. I'm not saying the dialogue in SP is the best thing since The Usual Suspects; I'm saying I don't really think that is the ultimate criterium by which to judge a scene.

    There's just something about SP, I don't know what it is, that forces people to look for the negative when there's so much positive. ;-) But hey, that's just me. ;-) ;-)
  • Posts: 15,116
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Well, I think many SP-critics here also underestimate the power of some of the quieter moments in that film.

    Take notice, please. Most of the times when Bond and Madeline are together in the film, there's barely another soul nearby. The clinic feels all but deserted, 'l Américain (delicious scene!) feels like the scene takes place on another planet, the train car looks quite empty, the desert is--uh--deserted, even London by night looks almost completely in lockdown. These two souls are both furthermore parentless, disconnected from the world, adrift. Some have argued that these two have no chemistry. I disagree with that. I see them as introverts (it takes one to know one, I guess ;-) ), insulated and alone but not necessarily lonely, who have found each other. The connection that these two have is not foreign to me personally.

    We are treated to several quiet moments in SP, with Bond and Madeline at the heart of it. Even the score chooses a quieter, more ambient style in those moments. I am absolutely delighted to have them in the film. I find them quite frankly to be very romantic. Of all the "passions" Bond has had in the movies, this one may come closest to my deepest romantic fantasies, not merely because of Madeline, but also because this passion seemingly exists in a world devoid of prying eyes. That's my world. ;-)

    'Quiet moments' they may be. But unfortunately with subpar dialogue.

    What's wrong with their dialogue? I don't know if lines like "I have no armour left--you've stripped it from me" are considered good by some, but I like the way Bond and Madeleine talk like human beings.

    I love CR, but I agree, @ProfJoeButcher, that Bond and Madeline talk like grown-ups. It's not as if the Bond films have a great tradition in dialogues between Bond and the lead girl. (That's not a complaint, by the way.) I fail to see how the childish interactions between Bond and Honey, or that "lovers' lesson number X" thing in LALD, or Bond lecturing Melina (and so on) are so much better. I'm not saying the dialogue in SP is the best thing since The Usual Suspects; I'm saying I don't really think that is the ultimate criterium by which to judge a scene.

    There's just something about SP, I don't know what it is, that forces people to look for the negative when there's so much positive. ;-) But hey, that's just me. ;-) ;-)

    Is it possible that the Stepbrothergate taints people's perception of the rest of the movie? I mentioned the destruction of Spectre's base in Morocco: sure it's done ridiculously easily, but isn't that the case of most of the destructions of villains HQs?
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    Brothergate feels a bit too easily thrown in a mix. Is it bad? Yes, it is. Does it destroy the entire film in all its aspects? No, at least not for me.

    Almost every Bond goes wrong here or there. Usually, we can give a film those one or two mock-ups. Of course, every fan has to consider for himself how annoying a certain mistake really is. ;-)
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited May 2021 Posts: 5,970
    To me, Spectre is a puzzle that got confused with another one. The pieces are good, they just don't fit together.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,296
    SP needed an edit, badly. It easily could have lost 15 minutes, particularly in the Rome sequences.

    SP doesn't deserve to be the longest Bond movie.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,970
    It needed about more drafts haha :D
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    I feel that Spectre genuinely lacked real obstacles and stakes. There was no tension. Without these elements, the film's outcome is one where I feel it's very good looking, but boring as hell.
  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    Posts: 1,351
    It might also be about the height of the drop. SF brings film critic's adorations. The prestige Bond. Maybe they'll even win some serious awards. I've heard cinephiles say they think most Bond is shlock, but SF is a proper film. All that stuff. Yada, yada, yada. You may not agree, but that's surely the perception that was around then and still mostly persists.
    They bring back Mendes - even delaying the next one to get him - and then SP is... ... not SF II. It definitely has it's problems, so it just drops like a stone in people's estimations and they (we, honestly. I do the same thing.) start going through it with a fine tooth comb, looking for reasons to justify ranking it in the bottom three of the entire series and forgetting, overlooking or unjustly disqualifying the good parts it has, which usually are cherished and championed for the other low-rated Bond films.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,970
    Like I always say, Spectre was a good first draft. Just needed a few more.

    To be honest, they really could've done with Phoebe, maybe then we wouldn't be hoping for No Time to Die to be Madeleine's saving grace.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited May 2021 Posts: 24,179
    echo wrote: »
    SP needed an edit, badly. It easily could have lost 15 minutes, particularly in the Rome sequences.

    SP doesn't deserve to be the longest Bond movie.

    Looks that issue is soon to be resolved. ;-)
    It might also be about the height of the drop. SF brings film critic's adorations. The prestige Bond. Maybe they'll even win some serious awards. I've heard cinephiles say they think most Bond is shlock, but SF is a proper film. All that stuff. Yada, yada, yada. You may not agree, but that's surely the perception that was around then and still mostly persists.
    They bring back Mendes - even delaying the next one to get him - and then SP is... ... not SF II. It definitely has it's problems, so it just drops like a stone in people's estimations and they (we, honestly. I do the same thing.) start going through it with a fine tooth comb, looking for reasons to justify ranking it in the bottom three of the entire series and forgetting, overlooking or unjustly disqualifying the good parts it has, which usually are cherished and championed for the other low-rated Bond films.

    Well put, sir! I fully agree.

    See, that's the thing. SF is a very good Bond film; to me it just never was that shining diamond the film seems to be to others. In fact, I somewhat resented its fluke success, as I felt most if not all of its "medals" (bar theme song) should have gone to CR, a film that was very well received, but somehow not as celebrated. Either way, with SF a good but not "superawesomefantastic" Bond film, I found elements in SP that I rate higher than in SF. There wasn't a drop in quality, at least not for me. So I guess that explains why some make certain claims such as "NSNA > SP" in their good and respectable opinion, while I find said claims nevertheless outrageous. ;-)
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    edited May 2021 Posts: 1,711
    I think most of us like or don't like a film for very basic reasons and come up with justifications later.

    If you like TSWLM and not MR, you don't like the space stuff: it's very simple. They didn't "ruin" the always-silly Jaws. If you don't like Spectre, it's most likely Brofeld. It's not the color filter in the PTS, or "subpar" dialogue between Bond and Madeleine.

    If you like a movie because it clicks with you, say, Goldfinger for its iconic moments, or Casino Royale for delivering the dark, gritty, tortured Bond you think used to be there, you don't get bent out of shape about this stuff. You tolerate rear-projected hotel backgrounds, two minute car-crushing scenes, Le Chiffre's actions not making any sense or Prague doubling for Miami (!). (what's with that--is EON banned from Miami or something?!)

    I think a great example is QOS. It's totally fair not to like the movie because of its editing in a few places. But people pretend that the movie is poor as a result of the writers strike. It has one of the most complex plots and likely the strongest character development of any movie in the series though, and without reports of Craig and Forster working on the script, we'd be none the wiser.
  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    Posts: 1,351
    I think most of us like or don't like a film for very basic reasons and come up with justifications later.

    If you like TSWLM and not MR, you don't like the space stuff: it's very simple. They didn't "ruin" the always-silly Jaws. If you don't like Spectre, it's most likely Brofeld. It's not the color filter in the PTS, or "subpar" dialogue between Bond and Madeleine.

    If you like a movie because it clicks with you, say, Goldfinger for its iconic moments, or Casino Royale for delivering the dark, gritty, tortured Bond you think used to be there, you don't get bent out of shape about this stuff. You tolerate rear-projected hotel backgrounds, two minute car-crushing scenes, Le Chiffre's actions not making any sense or Prague doubling for Miami (!). (what's with that--is EON banned from Miami or something?!)

    I think a great example is QOS. It's totally fair not to like the movie because if it's editing in a few places. But people pretend that the movie is poor as a result of the writers strike. It has one of the most complex plots and likely the strongest character development of any movie in the series though, and without reports of Craig and Forster working on the script, we'd be none the wiser.

    All very good points.
  • edited May 2021 Posts: 15,116
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    SP needed an edit, badly. It easily could have lost 15 minutes, particularly in the Rome sequences.

    SP doesn't deserve to be the longest Bond movie.

    Looks that issue is soon to be resolved. ;-)
    It might also be about the height of the drop. SF brings film critic's adorations. The prestige Bond. Maybe they'll even win some serious awards. I've heard cinephiles say they think most Bond is shlock, but SF is a proper film. All that stuff. Yada, yada, yada. You may not agree, but that's surely the perception that was around then and still mostly persists.
    They bring back Mendes - even delaying the next one to get him - and then SP is... ... not SF II. It definitely has it's problems, so it just drops like a stone in people's estimations and they (we, honestly. I do the same thing.) start going through it with a fine tooth comb, looking for reasons to justify ranking it in the bottom three of the entire series and forgetting, overlooking or unjustly disqualifying the good parts it has, which usually are cherished and championed for the other low-rated Bond films.

    Well put, sir! I fully agree.

    See, that's the thing. SF is a very good Bond film; to me it just never was that shining diamond the film seems to be to others. In fact, I somewhat resented its fluke success, as I felt most if not all of its "medals" (bar theme song) should have gone to CR, a film that was very well received, but somehow not as celebrated. Either way, with SF a good but not "superawesomefantastic" Bond film, I found elements in SP that I rate higher than in SF. There wasn't a drop in quality, at least not for me. So I guess that explains why some make certain claims such as "NSNA > SP" in their good and respectable opinion, while I find said claims nevertheless outrageous. ;-)

    I think SF is overall the better movie, but I enjoy SP more. Also I think SF in some aspects makes more sense with SP following it than at the standalone it was intended to be.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    I think most of us like or don't like a film for very basic reasons and come up with justifications later.

    If you like TSWLM and not MR, you don't like the space stuff: it's very simple. They didn't "ruin" the always-silly Jaws. If you don't like Spectre, it's most likely Brofeld. It's not the color filter in the PTS, or "subpar" dialogue between Bond and Madeleine.

    If you like a movie because it clicks with you, say, Goldfinger for its iconic moments, or Casino Royale for delivering the dark, gritty, tortured Bond you think used to be there, you don't get bent out of shape about this stuff. You tolerate rear-projected hotel backgrounds, two minute car-crushing scenes, Le Chiffre's actions not making any sense or Prague doubling for Miami (!). (what's with that--is EON banned from Miami or something?!)

    I think a great example is QOS. It's totally fair not to like the movie because of its editing in a few places. But people pretend that the movie is poor as a result of the writers strike. It has one of the most complex plots and likely the strongest character development of any movie in the series though, and without reports of Craig and Forster working on the script, we'd be none the wiser.

    There are many reasons I don't like SP. The brother angle is just one of the many flaws that infest the film. IMO.
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