Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    I’ve never seen a James Bond PTS that I didn’t like. That includes video games.

    Can't comment on the games because I have never played any, but fair point about the films. I suppose I always prefer the ones with Bond in them and am not as invested in the others but they are all good.
  • mtm wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    There are two PTS's I absolutely love that I don't see too much popping up in best ofs.

    TMWTGG and AVTAK.

    The first one is really atmospherical and introduces the villain and his weapon expertly. Also love the blatant Tabasco ad that's been squeezed in :)).

    The second one is Bond behind enemy lines, which is always a treat. Great stunts and score. Love the Iceberg sub too. Wouldn't mind taking that one for a spin, or uhm float/dive.

    That actually is fairly controversial liking the AVTAK opening, but I’m absolutely with you! I think it’s brilliant fun.

    I like the AVTAK PTS. I feel like if the original score was edited in and the California Girls music was removed, it would be appreciated a lot more.

    Yes because the score is great other than that. I think it's a really great PTS personally.

    True, true. AVTAK has a great score thanks to John Barry.
  • MaxCasino wrote: »
    I’ve never seen a James Bond PTS that I didn’t like. That includes video games.

    I don't know with regard to the video games but with the films I think the worst PTS is probably LALD simply because it doesn't have Bond. Not a bad scene though.
  • Posts: 15,116
    BT3366 wrote: »
    Since62 wrote: »
    It is ironic that Hamilton directed the two lower-key films, considering his first Bond film was GF ! GF brought on the big, spectacular flashy Bond films -- though, on reflection, moreso in spirit. At any rate, moving on, Gilbert directed YOLT so he was a natural for TSWLM, and it is greatly appreciated that he improved on it the second time, and was the beneficiary of having a more enthusiastic actor on just his 3rd Bond film. Unfortunately, by the time the original crew made YOLT there was a distracting amount of media attention during production, a thin script, a rather non-threatening -- albeit iconic in his own way -- Blofeld, a relatively tapped out Connery on his fifth film, made in a very brief time and with filming periods getting longer and longer...I've never understood, btw, why he looked so greasy/sweaty in portions of YOLT, but not in any of the other films. Was it a bit of cinema verite, even in such an over-the-top (literally) film ? But for TSWLM the dynamics were much more positive.

    Good observations. Maibaum being back for TSWLM and Wood worked better than Dahl. YOLT just seems the most off of the classic '60s era.

    You're right about Connery looking less than his best in YOLT and that only adds to my frustration with the film. There's a nice shot of him sweating after defeating the assassin in Osato's office as he's breaking into the safe that makes sense. But you can tell he's gained weight and the clothing he wears throughout isn't especially flattering. The best look he has is the Naval officer's outfit in his briefing with M. The heat of Japan couldn't have helped.

    My controversial: that submarine office for M in YOLT is far worse than M showing up in the field during the Brosnan and Craig era.
  • Ludovico wrote: »
    BT3366 wrote: »
    Since62 wrote: »
    It is ironic that Hamilton directed the two lower-key films, considering his first Bond film was GF ! GF brought on the big, spectacular flashy Bond films -- though, on reflection, moreso in spirit. At any rate, moving on, Gilbert directed YOLT so he was a natural for TSWLM, and it is greatly appreciated that he improved on it the second time, and was the beneficiary of having a more enthusiastic actor on just his 3rd Bond film. Unfortunately, by the time the original crew made YOLT there was a distracting amount of media attention during production, a thin script, a rather non-threatening -- albeit iconic in his own way -- Blofeld, a relatively tapped out Connery on his fifth film, made in a very brief time and with filming periods getting longer and longer...I've never understood, btw, why he looked so greasy/sweaty in portions of YOLT, but not in any of the other films. Was it a bit of cinema verite, even in such an over-the-top (literally) film ? But for TSWLM the dynamics were much more positive.

    Good observations. Maibaum being back for TSWLM and Wood worked better than Dahl. YOLT just seems the most off of the classic '60s era.

    You're right about Connery looking less than his best in YOLT and that only adds to my frustration with the film. There's a nice shot of him sweating after defeating the assassin in Osato's office as he's breaking into the safe that makes sense. But you can tell he's gained weight and the clothing he wears throughout isn't especially flattering. The best look he has is the Naval officer's outfit in his briefing with M. The heat of Japan couldn't have helped.

    My controversial: that submarine office for M in YOLT is far worse than M showing up in the field during the Brosnan and Craig era.

    That is controversial. I don't like the submarine office in YOLT though so I agree with you because I don't mind M showing up in the field in TWINE/QoS
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited June 2021 Posts: 7,118
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    I’ve never seen a James Bond PTS that I didn’t like. That includes video games.

    I don't know with regard to the video games but with the films I think the worst PTS is probably LALD simply because it doesn't have Bond. Not a bad scene though.

    I agree LALD is the worst, but for me the absence of Bond has nothing to do with it though, TMWTGG is one of my favourites.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,296
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Do we know why the aspect ratio got narrower for those first two Rogers? It certainly doesn't help the feeling that they've got a bit less grand and cinematic.

    I think it was about dialing things back to an extent after DAF had Blofeld hijacking a space laser satellite. They wanted to start off Moore on a smaller scale mission no different than how Connery originally did with his first films. The aspect ratio reflected that scale. So once they got to TSWLM it felt right to finally give Moore a mission that broadened the scales, thus returned to a wider aspect ratio.

    Is that what they've said? Seems a bit mad and not really like the Bond producers to think that way. Their mindset over the years has always seemed to be to make the next Bond film like it might be the last and throw everything at it. 'Biggest Bond Ever' and all that.
    It would seem odd if they actually planned some stepping stones films before big ones. I thought Spy was bigger than its predecessors because that's the one where Cubby got sole control and he made it like he thought it should be made.

    We see that with Bond all the time through the years. Whenever the series gets too big we see it scale down. Like MR to FYEO. DAD to CR. In the instance of DAF to LALD, they returned to the narrower aspect ratio, and didn't go back to the wider one until it was called for.

    Those ones aren’t really smaller scale though, just different in tone. There is something about those first two Rogers which feels slightly less ambitious at times. The rather small and unpopulated villains’ lairs for example, both having Bond-less PTS…

    I think Eon was somewhat copying the grittier film trends of the '70s, more realistic and indie films...not completely obviously, but influenced by their smaller, more intimate scale.

    By 1977 Eon was back to blockbusters, as was the industry (Jaws and Star Wars).
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    mtm wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    There are two PTS's I absolutely love that I don't see too much popping up in best ofs.

    TMWTGG and AVTAK.

    The first one is really atmospherical and introduces the villain and his weapon expertly. Also love the blatant Tabasco ad that's been squeezed in :)).

    The second one is Bond behind enemy lines, which is always a treat. Great stunts and score. Love the Iceberg sub too. Wouldn't mind taking that one for a spin, or uhm float/dive.

    That actually is fairly controversial liking the AVTAK opening, but I’m absolutely with you! I think it’s brilliant fun.

    I like the AVTAK PTS. I feel like if the original score was edited in and the California Girls music was removed, it would be appreciated a lot more.

    Probably, but I think California Girls is fun.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,118
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    There are two PTS's I absolutely love that I don't see too much popping up in best ofs.

    TMWTGG and AVTAK.

    The first one is really atmospherical and introduces the villain and his weapon expertly. Also love the blatant Tabasco ad that's been squeezed in :)).

    The second one is Bond behind enemy lines, which is always a treat. Great stunts and score. Love the Iceberg sub too. Wouldn't mind taking that one for a spin, or uhm float/dive.

    That actually is fairly controversial liking the AVTAK opening, but I’m absolutely with you! I think it’s brilliant fun.

    I like the AVTAK PTS. I feel like if the original score was edited in and the California Girls music was removed, it would be appreciated a lot more.

    Probably, but I think California Girls is fun.

    Don't mind it either. Never really had a problem with it actually.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    There are two PTS's I absolutely love that I don't see too much popping up in best ofs.

    TMWTGG and AVTAK.

    The first one is really atmospherical and introduces the villain and his weapon expertly. Also love the blatant Tabasco ad that's been squeezed in :)).

    The second one is Bond behind enemy lines, which is always a treat. Great stunts and score. Love the Iceberg sub too. Wouldn't mind taking that one for a spin, or uhm float/dive.

    That actually is fairly controversial liking the AVTAK opening, but I’m absolutely with you! I think it’s brilliant fun.

    I like the AVTAK PTS. I feel like if the original score was edited in and the California Girls music was removed, it would be appreciated a lot more.

    Probably, but I think California Girls is fun.

    I too think it's fun. Just not in a Bond film. And not in the middle of an action scene, interrupting Barry's score, which then picks up again like nothing's happened. That's like having Tina's "The Best" or Survivor's "Eye Of The Tiger" playing while Bond and Vesper go at it at the recovery clinic in CR. ;-)
  • DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    There are two PTS's I absolutely love that I don't see too much popping up in best ofs.

    TMWTGG and AVTAK.

    The first one is really atmospherical and introduces the villain and his weapon expertly. Also love the blatant Tabasco ad that's been squeezed in :)).

    The second one is Bond behind enemy lines, which is always a treat. Great stunts and score. Love the Iceberg sub too. Wouldn't mind taking that one for a spin, or uhm float/dive.

    That actually is fairly controversial liking the AVTAK opening, but I’m absolutely with you! I think it’s brilliant fun.

    I like the AVTAK PTS. I feel like if the original score was edited in and the California Girls music was removed, it would be appreciated a lot more.

    Probably, but I think California Girls is fun.

    I too think it's fun. Just not in a Bond film. And not in the middle of an action scene, interrupting Barry's score, which then picks up again like nothing's happened. That's like having Tina's "The Best" or Survivor's "Eye Of The Tiger" playing while Bond and Vesper go at it at the recovery clinic in CR. ;-)

    Yes, I don't mind it, but it's totally out of context in the middle of an action-y pre-title sequence in a Bond film, like you said
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Could be a generation thing, I remember on first renting it my Dad laughed at it
  • Posts: 1,917
    When I saw AVTAK the first time in the cinema, when California Girls came on I looked around wondering if the soundtrack from the film in the other auditorium had somehow intruded on AVTAK's. I was in disbelief.

    No free passes, it was awful then and it's still awful. At least in retrospect I know the series would move away from that and two years later and we were spared Dalton's ride down Gibralter wasn't set to the Supremes' or Kim Wilde's version of You Keep Me Hangin' On.
  • Posts: 1,630
    Unfortunately for R Moore, it was during his era that they indulged in things which were supposed to be funny, but were not. I didn't mind the lighter approach overall, consistent with Moore's statement that these were escapist fantasies, so lighten up and enjoy them. I'm just saying that they were dumb, unfunny jokes. A clue was given in DAF with the series of automobile crashes -- later raised to the ultimate in The Blues Brothers, and just not funny in either -- and, moreso, by the reaction of the police who see the red Mustang emerge from auto crash galore. The policeman's reaction, at least, was understandable, credible and did not make of him a buffoon. For that, go to LALD, with the inclusion of Sheriff JW Pepper, and the old man driving an old truck. The lady in the plane getting an instruction was ok and just, I think, the right touch. The sheriff amazingly, coincidentally and most unlikely shows up in TMWTGG. Again, not funny. TMWTGG starts the unfortunate sound effect attempt at "humor", with the slide-whistle sound during a fantastic stunt. (The stunt, developed by a car stunt show team using the attractive AMC Javelin sport coupe, was downgraded by the fact that AMC discontinued the Javelin, and the stunt then was done using a comparatively plebian model of AMC.) After that, just more dumb sound effects or soundtrack intrusions, and more dumb attempts at "jokes." Of course, the Bond films, starting with TSWLM, because huge grossing films, including world-wide. I do not know whether they were so successful due to the dumb stuff being included, or despite it. By then, apparently, all that lame stuff was part of the brand. Glad it's all gone. It's still escapist fantasy, but without the groaners...
  • Posts: 15,116
    echo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Do we know why the aspect ratio got narrower for those first two Rogers? It certainly doesn't help the feeling that they've got a bit less grand and cinematic.

    I think it was about dialing things back to an extent after DAF had Blofeld hijacking a space laser satellite. They wanted to start off Moore on a smaller scale mission no different than how Connery originally did with his first films. The aspect ratio reflected that scale. So once they got to TSWLM it felt right to finally give Moore a mission that broadened the scales, thus returned to a wider aspect ratio.

    Is that what they've said? Seems a bit mad and not really like the Bond producers to think that way. Their mindset over the years has always seemed to be to make the next Bond film like it might be the last and throw everything at it. 'Biggest Bond Ever' and all that.
    It would seem odd if they actually planned some stepping stones films before big ones. I thought Spy was bigger than its predecessors because that's the one where Cubby got sole control and he made it like he thought it should be made.

    We see that with Bond all the time through the years. Whenever the series gets too big we see it scale down. Like MR to FYEO. DAD to CR. In the instance of DAF to LALD, they returned to the narrower aspect ratio, and didn't go back to the wider one until it was called for.

    Those ones aren’t really smaller scale though, just different in tone. There is something about those first two Rogers which feels slightly less ambitious at times. The rather small and unpopulated villains’ lairs for example, both having Bond-less PTS…

    I think Eon was somewhat copying the grittier film trends of the '70s, more realistic and indie films...not completely obviously, but influenced by their smaller, more intimate scale.

    By 1977 Eon was back to blockbusters, as was the industry (Jaws and Star Wars).

    It would have been interesting had Eon also followed the tone of early 70s films: darker, grittier and more violent. I don't know if Moore would have worked with such approach (although I think he was far more flexible than people credit him for), but I think they'd have accepted anything from DAF as long as Connery played Bond.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    There are two PTS's I absolutely love that I don't see too much popping up in best ofs.

    TMWTGG and AVTAK.

    The first one is really atmospherical and introduces the villain and his weapon expertly. Also love the blatant Tabasco ad that's been squeezed in :)).

    The second one is Bond behind enemy lines, which is always a treat. Great stunts and score. Love the Iceberg sub too. Wouldn't mind taking that one for a spin, or uhm float/dive.

    That actually is fairly controversial liking the AVTAK opening, but I’m absolutely with you! I think it’s brilliant fun.

    I like the AVTAK PTS. I feel like if the original score was edited in and the California Girls music was removed, it would be appreciated a lot more.

    Probably, but I think California Girls is fun.

    I too think it's fun. Just not in a Bond film. And not in the middle of an action scene, interrupting Barry's score, which then picks up again like nothing's happened. That's like having Tina's "The Best" or Survivor's "Eye Of The Tiger" playing while Bond and Vesper go at it at the recovery clinic in CR. ;-)

    Thanks for that @DarthDimi, I'll never see that scene without hearing either of those tracks now! :))
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 2021 Posts: 16,382
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    There are two PTS's I absolutely love that I don't see too much popping up in best ofs.

    TMWTGG and AVTAK.

    The first one is really atmospherical and introduces the villain and his weapon expertly. Also love the blatant Tabasco ad that's been squeezed in :)).

    The second one is Bond behind enemy lines, which is always a treat. Great stunts and score. Love the Iceberg sub too. Wouldn't mind taking that one for a spin, or uhm float/dive.

    That actually is fairly controversial liking the AVTAK opening, but I’m absolutely with you! I think it’s brilliant fun.

    I like the AVTAK PTS. I feel like if the original score was edited in and the California Girls music was removed, it would be appreciated a lot more.

    Probably, but I think California Girls is fun.

    I too think it's fun. Just not in a Bond film. And not in the middle of an action scene, interrupting Barry's score, which then picks up again like nothing's happened. That's like having Tina's "The Best" or Survivor's "Eye Of The Tiger" playing while Bond and Vesper go at it at the recovery clinic in CR. ;-)

    Well it's a joke: it's not interrupting anything- it's an action scene but it's a funny action scene. Without the music it would be a flat moment. It's not a totally serious film.
    The recovery clinic is a vaguely light moment but it's not supposed to be a comedy scene.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    There are two PTS's I absolutely love that I don't see too much popping up in best ofs.

    TMWTGG and AVTAK.

    The first one is really atmospherical and introduces the villain and his weapon expertly. Also love the blatant Tabasco ad that's been squeezed in :)).

    The second one is Bond behind enemy lines, which is always a treat. Great stunts and score. Love the Iceberg sub too. Wouldn't mind taking that one for a spin, or uhm float/dive.

    That actually is fairly controversial liking the AVTAK opening, but I’m absolutely with you! I think it’s brilliant fun.

    I like the AVTAK PTS. I feel like if the original score was edited in and the California Girls music was removed, it would be appreciated a lot more.

    Probably, but I think California Girls is fun.

    I too think it's fun. Just not in a Bond film. And not in the middle of an action scene, interrupting Barry's score, which then picks up again like nothing's happened. That's like having Tina's "The Best" or Survivor's "Eye Of The Tiger" playing while Bond and Vesper go at it at the recovery clinic in CR. ;-)

    Thanks for that @DarthDimi, I'll never see that scene without hearing either of those tracks now! :))
    @CraigMooreOHMSS
    I don't think I can either.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited June 2021 Posts: 18,270
    Ludovico wrote: »
    BT3366 wrote: »
    Since62 wrote: »
    It is ironic that Hamilton directed the two lower-key films, considering his first Bond film was GF ! GF brought on the big, spectacular flashy Bond films -- though, on reflection, moreso in spirit. At any rate, moving on, Gilbert directed YOLT so he was a natural for TSWLM, and it is greatly appreciated that he improved on it the second time, and was the beneficiary of having a more enthusiastic actor on just his 3rd Bond film. Unfortunately, by the time the original crew made YOLT there was a distracting amount of media attention during production, a thin script, a rather non-threatening -- albeit iconic in his own way -- Blofeld, a relatively tapped out Connery on his fifth film, made in a very brief time and with filming periods getting longer and longer...I've never understood, btw, why he looked so greasy/sweaty in portions of YOLT, but not in any of the other films. Was it a bit of cinema verite, even in such an over-the-top (literally) film ? But for TSWLM the dynamics were much more positive.

    Good observations. Maibaum being back for TSWLM and Wood worked better than Dahl. YOLT just seems the most off of the classic '60s era.

    You're right about Connery looking less than his best in YOLT and that only adds to my frustration with the film. There's a nice shot of him sweating after defeating the assassin in Osato's office as he's breaking into the safe that makes sense. But you can tell he's gained weight and the clothing he wears throughout isn't especially flattering. The best look he has is the Naval officer's outfit in his briefing with M. The heat of Japan couldn't have helped.

    My controversial: that submarine office for M in YOLT is far worse than M showing up in the field during the Brosnan and Craig era.

    Yes, and the submarine office for M in YOLT was the beginning of the rather silly trend of pop-up hidden MI6 offices in the field seen in the later Roger Moore Bond films such as the Egyptian pyramid HQ in TSWLM, the South American HQ in MR and the Indian Q Branch workshop in OP. Of course YOLT, TSWLM and MR were all directed by Lewis Gilbert so it seems to have been a trope of his Bond films in particular.

    On the point about M showing up in the field in the more recent Bond films merely reflects what was going on in the Bond continuation novels by Amis and Gardner. M was even kidnapped and held at the villain's lair in Greece in Amis's Colonel Sun! That M kidnapping idea was of course later replicated in the films with The World is Not Enough. Bill Tanner also had a bigger role with more action in the field in some of the Gardner novels, particularly in Licence Renewed where he accompanies Bond in hunting down the villain, Dr Anton Murik, at the novel's climax in Scotland.
  • Posts: 2,402
    I've said it before and I'll say it a million times: if they had used the original Beach Boys version of California Girls (a masterclass of musical production and arrangement), that gag could've gotten away with it by a hair. It's the fact that they use this ear-rapey, bass-boosted cover by some no name band instead (check the end credits of the film) that makes the gag unbearable.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    If Bond was literally surfing on a beach, then I can understand using the song. But he’s snowboarding. It strikes me as the kind of creative decision only an old man that’s completely out of touch with the world would make. Not surprising, a majority of the filmmakers behind AVTAK were all above retirement age. Even the cast was largely made up of elderly people. Walken, Jones, and Roberts were the most youthful of the cast.
  • edited July 2021 Posts: 2,917
    It's also more humor than the scene needed. It was already enough that Bond used the snowmobile ski as a surfboard and then surfed on the water. Throwing a Beach Boys song on top of this is like someone who tells you a joke and then elbows you in the ribs while asking "Get it? Get it? Get it??" It's hamfisted and insulting. The humor in the early Bond films consisted of puns that varied from sly to corny, but it was rarely so overdone.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    If Bond was literally surfing on a beach, then I can understand using the song. But he’s snowboarding.

    That’s the joke though. I know snowboarding wasn’t all that new at the time but it wasn’t mainstream and the idea was that he appeared to be surfing, only on snow. It’s Bond being inventive.
  • cwl007cwl007 England
    Posts: 611
    There are 2 moments in all of Bond that I simply press the mute button for. 1 is the MWTGG slide whistle and the other is ' California Girls'. Both moments are infinitely better in silence.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited July 2021 Posts: 16,382
    Oh I think you've got to embrace the gags: the corniness is what makes it fun sometimes. Roger exclaiming "this should shake them off" as the Tuk Tuk bounces down a staircase in Octopussy is a dreadful old joke, but I love it :)
    I can't imagine watching something so well-intentioned and made in the sense of fun and getting annoyed because it's not enough of a serious spy thriller. It's just not the point.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    mtm wrote: »
    Oh I think you've got to embrace the gags: the corniness is what makes it fun sometimes. Roger exclaiming "this should shake them off" as the Tuk Tuk bounces down a staircase in Octopussy is a dreadful old joke, but I love it :)
    I can't imagine watching something so well-intentioned and made in the sense of fun and getting annoyed because it's not enough of a serious spy thriller. It's just not the point.

    Very true.
    Even in the sub-genre of Movies That Feature a Blimp, AVTAK is not particularly serious as a film.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    The slide whistle is bad, very bad. Even John Barry said he regretted using it. Same with California Girls, I'm sure many of us would have rather had a bit of the Bond theme played over it
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    I would have gladly supported EON taking the slide whistle out, George Lucas style.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,296
    J.W. Pepper in tourist shorts is more offensive to me than the slide whistle.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,270
    echo wrote: »
    J.W. Pepper in tourist shorts is more offensive to me than the slide whistle.

    Well, he was on vacation. ;)
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