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Comments
Yes indeed: it's like just looking at Judas' face when Da Vinci's Last Supper is in front of you.
To be honest I never liked LTK much. Hence I'm happy to watch bits of it rather than the whole thing. Too much sci-fi for my taste. But I'd say that it was the last time that Moore looked young enough to be a 00 operative. The years had caught up with him in FYEO (even though I prefer that movie).
He's also depicted as an older man.
OP is where he definitely looks too old to be a Double-O operative, having crossed the line into advanced middle age. The film made a smart decision to pair him with an actress closer to his age, but even that wasn't enough.
I think it's a pity Roger didn't close his tenure with OP. The excitement of having a new Bond might have revitalized the filmmakers and lifted them out of the torpor that characterizes AVTAK. Dalton would have probably had more chemistry with that film's cast as well.
Dalton in AVTAK doesn’t bear thinking about- I can see him really struggling in that. And no Roger and Macnee? No thanks! :)
I wholeheartedly agree with Revelator that OP would have been the perfect film for Sir Rog to bow out, especially given that OP ended up topping NSNA. That’s quite a feat to say you beat Connery’s film at the box office race. Coming back to AVTAK strikes me as Cubby being too complacent with a sure fire Bond. He was ready to move on with a new actor for OP and only got Moore so to compete with Connery’s film and not give a newbie the pressure. By AVTAK, Moore didn’t have anything left to prove.
That's an interesting "What if?" about timing that might have helped Dalton's tenure. I can't exactly recall when the chatter around Brosnan started in the US but I believe it was after AVTAK. Cubby would often go back to previous choices so if he was looking at Dalton in 1969, Dalton would probably have been on a Bond shortlist in 1984.
On the other hand, AVTAK would be a terrible script for a new Bond. Presumably if Dalton were cast in AVTAK, that film would have the "new Bond" energy that accompanies each actor's first film, so maybe Wilson/Maibaum would try a little harder...
And that would change TLD somehow.
What if, indeed.
When I think of Dalton in AVTAK, I think of a film that’s more similar in tone with TLD. There wouldn’t be a Beach Boys gag. There wouldn’t be bumbling cops. They’d look for a leading lady that would match closer with Dalton than Tanya Roberts would have. All that kind of broad humor was suited for Moore’s film is gone. Even the broadest Dalton got in TLD ended up being deleted: the magic carpet scene. They knew after filming it that it wasn’t suited for Dalton, and scrapped it accordingly.
And as mentioned above, a new Bond would have especially upped everyone’s game behind the scenes. It wasn’t going to be “business as usual” like AVTAK turned out with Moore, had Dalton done it.
I had the opposite reaction. Dalton would have probably had far more chemistry and shared intensity with Walken than Moore, who acts as if he was in a different film than most of the main cast. Brosnan could barely hold his own with Sean Bean in GE, so I don't think he'd have done wonders for AVTAK.
I genuinely find that comment about Brosnan to be bizarre. Sean Bean is appalling in GE. That stupid posh accent...They should have just gotten him to do it in his normal voice.
Just goes to show how we all respond to different things.
I'm not sure he would object, would he? And even without that it's not a wildly different film: I can't think of much he couldn't have done in it (a few years younger of course). It's tricky to imagine him doing the sniper stuff but he still could have.
Sounds awful! :D
Heh, I'm only joking- something like the San Fran chase would have been altered hopefully, and I'm sure no-one would be too upset about that, but it does sound rather charm-free. I'm glad he didn't do it. Imagine him next to Grace Jones: he'd have been invisible.
Yeah I'm not sure where that's coming from at all, Brosnan's not a great actor but he's a very effective star and he has movie star charisma as Bond in a way which Dalton very much lacks. He's the best thing about DAD.
I have no issue with Bean either (although the accent isn't great), they just work well together. Dalton would've been destroyed by Walken.
It's more likely that an ultimately lightweight actor like Brosnan would have been steamrolled by Walken, similar to how Moore seemed detached from the proceedings. Dalton could obviously project aggression and intensity, which is what you need if you're sharing the screen with Walken or Jones. Roger Moore had charisma but it didn't save him from looking out of place and befuddled with his castmates in AVTAK. I realize that you're very fond of that film, but I think it's largely a botch--an enervated dud in a decade of otherwise good Bond films.
Is that likely though? When has that happened? He's on screen with Dench in most of his Bond films, and although obviously he's not an equal in acting terms, he has more than enough presence to see him through.
Dalton is a weak screen presence in his Bonds (not in other movies, oddly): it's way more likely he'd have been the thing we don't remember about AVTAK. He was lucky he didn't get paired with any really big actors in his Bonds. Davi is good value, but he's not a massive screen-eating star.
Imagine Dalton in Moonraker or DAD: he'd be swallowed by the film. Brosnan and Moore manage to stand on top of them, somehow.
Hardly befuddled. He's having a whale of a time, just as usual, and the audience share that.
It is a botch, yes, but it's a fun one. And it's mostly because Roger is such good value in it. Dropping one of the weaker Bonds into it would just ensure that it's a total failure: you need that charisma to make it work as well as it does.
I probably like Dalton as Bond a bit more than you do, but I think you're being a little hard on him! Tim is the funniest guy in Hot Fuzz, a movie full of very funny people. And he isn't blown off the screen by Robert Davi, who is surely Walken's equal in terms of onscreen charisma in the role. I think Tim can match pretty much anything thrown at him.
I think AVTAK with Dalton would have been great for a few reasons:
1) Tim--who is again good at humor when he wants to be--could have had fun as James St John Smythe. He can do a great smarmy jerk if he wants to, and this would give him a chance to be a bit properly comedic without compromising his character of James Bond. (His throwing away of one-liners is very deliberate) And audiences might have warmed to him a bit more too. Roger's great in AVTAK, but the Smythe bit is not all that far removed from his regular Bond.
2) If LTK were Tim's third movie, it'd be easier to digest. One of the reasons it's a bit jarring as is is that we barely know Tim's Bond from one movie before he takes this left turn. AVTAK-TLD-LTK could have been a nice evolution.
3) I think people really overstate how OTT AVTAK is. Some bits are corny due to execution, but the movie, odd as it is, and with a few exceptions, is played pretty straight. And some things would be different: Achille Aubergine would not have been in Tim's AVTAK. And there would have been far fewer stunt doubles. AVTAK would have benefitted from the added effort debut movies tend to get.
4) I get more Timmy! (And Roger, my second favorite, goes out on my favorite of his films)
That's what I said: he's much better in non-Bond films. I don't know if that's down to Glen or choices he made or what.
Rocketeer is another obvious one: he's great in that. I want that guy playing Bond.
Yep, I mentioned Davi too. He's good value, as I said, but I would argue with your assessment. If Walken and Davi were onscreen together I know where I'd expect my eyes to be drawn.
Well that's fine, I can't see that at all but as Father Val said, just shows how we respond to different things.
I think Moore gave one of his worst performances in MR. Close to sleepwalking. Brosnan had grown into the role by the time of DAD, but the badness of the movie is also what prompts one to notice his performance.
An audience of one? I think it's relatively uncontroversial to point out that part of AVTAK's negative critical and audience reception was the commonly-made observation that Roger was too old for the role. Even he said he didn't enjoy the film, and aside from his scenes with Macnee he doesn't look like he's having fun.
But his charisma doesn't save it, just as it failed to salvage TMWTGG or MR. AVTAK represents the exhausted end-point of the Moore era. The film's botched attempt at incorporating harder-edged content and hip young co-stars runs aground against an aging star and the sort of naff comedy that marked his tenure. A harder-edged, younger Bond would have been a better match.
But it is funny how we all see things differently. For example, I don’t think Brosnan was that good in GE. He comes off very stiff, almost playing the part too smoothly that I never really believe he’s an actual human being. More suitable for cologne adverts than a secret agent with a license to kill.
At least for me, Brosnan doesn’t really own the role until DAD. Suddenly in that film it felt like his Bond finally came alive. There’s a vitality in that film that was lacking in his previous three films. I think it’s too bad he didn’t find that with his first film, because I’d probably rate GE much higher if he possessed that.
Even sleepwalking he's great though. I'm sure you wouldn't argue it's a charisma-free performance.
And yes, DAD is bad, I'm not sure what point you're making with that, but it's also very big and loud and yet Brosnan manages to be winning throughout. I'm not a massive fan of him as Bond, but I can see that he has a natural star quality.
Old doesn't equal befuddled, though. He's as smooth as ever.
I'm not sure where you think he looks like he's not enjoying it: he's doing danger acting, he's not supposed to be loving it. Does Dalton look like he's having fun?
Maybe not for you, but it does for me, which is why I can't imagine someone with less charisma doing a better job.
+1
This is the guy who had arguments with his director because he wanted Bond to put his hands in his pockets. He wasn't looking to "blow other actors off the screen". I suspect two actors as good as Dalton and Walken would have sorted out an appropriate chemistry...
AVTAK would have needed serious rewrites, and maybe some recast to fit Dalton's Bond. Overall it could have strengthened his whole tenure, both intrinsically and with the public.
I am comparatively cool on Brosnan's tenure in the role, but he's never a problem, even if he is my least favourite Bond.
Moore is ace in every film, and in the non-action scenes he is perfectly fine in AVTAK. There are moments when he is as good as ever and he is arguably the best thing in it - while paradoxically his age is also the element that lets the film down. It's a bizarre film overall but I find it very entertaining to watch.
Dalton in AVTAK would have changed the tone and he would have been good. He's also a fine actor and him underplaying the role would have worked perfectly well against Walken - in fact, it would have been perfectly in keeping with the Fleming like interpretation of the role, by having the slightly dour Bond opposite the flamboyant villain. In many ways, that's the whole dynamic isn't it?
The villain in a James Bond film is supposed to dominate the scenes with Bond because he is typically more extroverted and has the upper hand (by having Bond captive for example) in nearly all the scenes they share until the end when Bond kills him.
So I am perfectly fine with the Bond actor being upstaged by the villain because we know Bond is keeping it all to himself until he knows the time is right.
It's not really about the exact character he plays in Rocketeer: it's more that he has actual presence and owns the screen in that role, which he doesn't do in Bond. It's very odd.
It's something Craig managed to do which Dalton didn't. I think it also helps that Craig saw what worked and was expected of Bond and added that to the more serious Fleming Bond.
I think I'd agree it's probably his best performance: he's very assured and comfortable. I feel like TWINE was a bit of a dip for him.
It's interesting, in the later scenes Roger plays Bond as really despising Zorin, practically spitting his lines at him, which I can't recall his Bond being like with any of his baddies. He's a bit salty with Drax perhaps on the space station, but not quite as full of hate.