Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    I suppose you could "never let them see you bleed" by remaining in your invisible car, but that came later.... :-?
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,218
    Q, Trevelyan and Bond went for pints together after work and he taught them all about that sort of stuff then.
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    I think OP would count, both watching Octopussy’s Island and escorting Bond to Khan’s palace via hot air balloon.

    Oh yeah, that too. I am hopping out of the 'Q in the field' chat, because I clearly haven't thought it through enough haha.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Q, Trevelyan and Bond went for pints together after work and he taught them all about that sort of stuff then.
    Q, Trevelyan and Bond went for pints together after work and he taught them all about that sort of stuff then.

    Exactly.

    "Never let them see you bleed...HIC...006, 007."
    "Who do you mean? Is that a metaphor?"
    "Meta for what?"
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited September 2021 Posts: 18,282
    mtm wrote: »
    What's it a metaphor for? :)

    I think the weird thing is even the implication that Q has ever tried to teach Bond anything at all: other than wishing he had more respect that was never their dynamic.

    I think it's just a general reference to Q supplying Bond with gadgets that go on to save his life and get him out of tricky situations. It's a shorthand way of saying that. If you like, it's another version of, "Remember, if it hadn't been for Q Branch you'd have been dead long ago" from Licence to Kill.

    However, I do get your point too, in that it does sort of spring up from nowhere as a sort of pithy saying. I guess it ultimately comes down to the writing and what the scriptwriters perceived Bond had learned from Q over the years. I'm sure to many the quote is somewhat counterfactual, but there it is. I suppose it's a bit like the "sexist, misogynist dinosaur" comment about Bond from M in GoldenEye in that it might appear a bit revisionist in terms of what came before.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,428
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    What's it a metaphor for? :)

    I think the weird thing is even the implication that Q has ever tried to teach Bond anything at all: other than wishing he had more respect that was never their dynamic.

    I think it's just a general reference to Q supplying Bond with gadgets that go on to save his life and get him out of tricky situations. It's a shorthand way of saying that. If you like, it's another version of, "Remember, if it hadn't been for Q Branch you'd have been dead long ago" from Licence to Kill.

    Is it though? :) It's kind of... a completely different thing. The LTK thing does actually bear some similarity to what we've seen, which is a bit better :D
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    However, I do get your point too, in that it does sort of spring up from nowhere as a sort of pithy saying. I guess it ultimately comes down to the writing and what the scriptwriters perceived Bond had learned from Q over the years. I'm sure to many the quote is somewhat counterfactual, but there it is.

    I remember in the cinema thinking "Eh? That doesn't sound like Q at all" and that line has always smacked of them needing Q to say two things so they can end on the 'escape route' line (ideally three really, for the rule of three). But they couldn't think of a first one so they put that 'bleed' line in the script with the intention of replacing it with something better, and which made more sense, when they eventually thought of it! :D
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,306
    Since62 wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    FourDot wrote: »
    Funny thing occurred to me. In TB, Q mentions his presence on the field to be “highly irregular”.

    But I think from that point on the only time he wasn’t on the field for the rest of Cubby’s run was in OHMSS and LALD. It’s not until GE that he actually stays in HQ, and then has one more moment out in the field in TND for his brief cameo.

    Does he stay at HQ in TLD? I suppose that inside the different Mi6 stations doesn't count as out in the field.

    He's at the end of the Koskov extraction.

    Yes, the Koskov defection definitely counts as in the field. He even has to climb up all those stairs! I misread @MakeshiftPython's comment, and thought he meant that we don't see him in the lab until GE.

    Is TB and LTK the only time he is 'behind enemy lines'? In other films he is on Mi6 owned ground, I think.

    Yes, and I think popping the pills at the end of the Koskov extraction was the first attempt to set up his future absence.

    Miraculously with TWINE, they managed to give him a proper sendoff/tribute, something that neither Lee nor Maxwell nor any of the Bonds prior to Craig got (although I'd argue Moore kind of did, and Dench did).

    I'm wracking what's left of my brain to come up with the proper sendoff/tribute which Moore "kind of did" receive...I'm thinking about the end of AVTAK...and I'm coming up with...nothin'...Help me out, please ! You have something clever in mind and I cannot guess it.

    Barry's last chord for Moore has the feel of a curtain call to it.

    Other than that, it's just me imagining that "007 alive" and "just cleaning up a few details" connote a sense of finality.

    That he goes out on a light note (an "Ooh," no less) in this sometimes dark film seems very Moore.
  • Posts: 1,632
    Well, thank you for relating that, though I don't see it being much different from prior Moore Bond film endings, except to say that, like the rest of AVTAK, it was lame and lacked energy (Bond with the lady lead getting romantic, but in the shower in a house - how on earth did the producers accept THAT ?), and repetitive of prior ones (stupid little remote control robot and the folks back at the Main Office being nosy while Bond gets busy...again). In that it was lame, etc., perhaps that spoke to you of a worn out character with little left, hence a send-off, of sorts ? It spoke to me of worn out writers, etc. and certainly not R Moore's fault. It should have ended more like DN - Bond throws the ax at the crazy old evil scientist, who falls out of the airship. Never mind explosives. Set it up in advance that the only persons left are the pilots, and perhaps have it be known to the audience - no overkill, please - that the pilots are not evil and didn't want to be there doing that. Stacy and Bond climb up to the airship. Visibly relieved pilots agree to fly Stacy and Bond away from there. They go in the back - somehow have privacy - and proceed to fly united, so to speak. And have a romantic theme at the end, not a reprise of the main title, but something softer and more romantic, which also would have been well within the range of Duran Duran.
  • Posts: 2,165
    Not about the films... but about the game 007 Nightfire.

    A lot is made about the fact that Bond uses the likeness of Pierce Brosnan.

    But..

    IMO the in game Bond bares very little resemblance to what Brosnan looked like in 2002 (Die Another Day).

    They just about get the hair right, thats it.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,590
    Yeah, the game model looks more like Brosnan between TND-TWINE.

    I wish Craig got a final Bond game after NTTD.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    According to @JamesPage getting Brosnan's likeness was done at the last minute. It was originally going to feature the Bond that debuted in AGENT UNDER FIRE. Wouldn't surprise me that part of this was because the game was coming out around the time DAD and MGM/EON probably wanted to have their star featured in the game when they were really hyping up the 40th anniversary. Because it was done so late, this is why Brosnan couldn't do any voice over work. IMO, his likeness combined with Maxwell Caulfield's voice was incredibly distracting. The first time Bond opened his mouth in the game and it wasn't Brosnan's voice threw me off the loop.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 2021 Posts: 16,428
    According to @JamesPage getting Brosnan's likeness was done at the last minute. It was originally going to feature the Bond that debuted in AGENT UNDER FIRE. Wouldn't surprise me that part of this was because the game was coming out around the time DAD and MGM/EON probably wanted to have their star featured in the game when they were really hyping up the 40th anniversary. Because it was done so late, this is why Brosnan couldn't do any voice over work. IMO, his likeness combined with Maxwell Caulfield's voice was incredibly distracting. The first time Bond opened his mouth in the game and it wasn't Brosnan's voice threw me off the loop.

    Yes that was weird, although I did think Brosnan gave quite an insultingly low energy performance for Everything or Nothing. At least Craig and Connery were actually giving it a bit of power when they did their games.

    I still wish they'd have done another retro 007 game after FRWL with Roger Moore; I think he'd have really gone for it, plus he barely sounded any older.
  • mtm wrote: »
    I still wish they'd have done another retro 007 game after FRWL with Roger Moore; I think he'd have really gone for it, plus he barely sounded any older.
    Definitely a missed opportunity. Nevertheless, if it had happened, I would have preferred something else than an adaptation of an already existing Moore installment. An original story or even a new take on someone else movie (OHMSS maybe) would have been more interesting in my opinion.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,428
    mtm wrote: »
    I still wish they'd have done another retro 007 game after FRWL with Roger Moore; I think he'd have really gone for it, plus he barely sounded any older.
    Definitely a missed opportunity. Nevertheless, if it had happened, I would have preferred something else than an adaptation of an already existing Moore installment. An original story or even a new take on someone else movie (OHMSS maybe) would have been more interesting in my opinion.

    Oh yeah, a new story set in the TSWLM/MR period would have been brilliant fun. Flares, Lotus Esprits, space shuttles, a lot of orange and everything. Call it something silly like Come Spy With Me - job's a good 'un :)
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    I think they originally did want to go with Moore because his films were more action oriented, but when Connery responded by being open to participate it wasn’t a surprise EA opted to do a Connery game. I can’t think of a movie star on the same level as Connery when it comes to doing video games, aside from Marlon Brando recording lines for the GODFATHER video game that were unusable because you could hear the oxygen tank in the background.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 2021 Posts: 16,428
    I think they originally did want to go with Moore because his films were more action oriented, but when Connery responded by being open to participate it wasn’t a surprise EA opted to do a Connery game.

    Is that right? That's very interesting, I didn't know that. I don't blame them either; it's just a shame they didn't go for more retro Bonds after that, but I guess it was in the interim period where there was no current Bond (?) so I guess the gap of opportunity was small.

    It is kind of nicely full circle that it was Connery's final role too, playing 007 one more time. I know the Sir Billie cartoon came out after, but I think I read that he'd recorded his role quite a few years earlier.
  • Posts: 15,127
    mtm wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    It's not very interesting to restrict it to things they've already thought of, though. I want new things.
    Not just for the sake of new things. Like I said: "in new and interesting ways".

    I’m not sure what you’re saying. Bond is repetitive enough without restricting him to using the same things every time too.

    The problem with gadgets is that they tend to quickly escalate into absurd devices thar are featured more for the cool factor than any true utility.

    I don't really see that as a problem. I like the Bond films being big and crazy- that's why I'm a fan of them.
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I think they should be used sparingly and remain as plausible as possible. Logically, the gadgets should have multiple applications, should be adaptable to a number of missions and circumstances to be optimal. That's why the briefcase is one of my favourite. That does NOT mean the circumstances or the outcome should be repetitive. I really enjoyed the use of the DB5 in SF, not merely for nostalgic value, but because it was done differently than in GF: no fancy display of all its features, only good old machine gunning of unsuspecting henchmen. They seem to be going in this direction in NTTD.

    I don't mind the occasional old one coming back, but that does sound a bit boring. A major part of the joy of the gadgets is to see what he's got this time and what clever inventive idea they've come up with. Just having the same ones, even if used in different ways, removes that moment of joy. I'm not sure what this idea adds.

    That's why it's controversial I guess. I'm not against new gadgets, I just think they should not just be added for the sake of it, they should not be a sine qua non element in Bond films and they could reuse the gadgets they came up with.

    How do you define ‘for the sake of it’, though? And where are you drawing the line where they can’t invent new ones? From the next film?
    echo wrote: »
    FourDot wrote: »
    Funny thing occurred to me. In TB, Q mentions his presence on the field to be “highly irregular”.

    But I think from that point on the only time he wasn’t on the field for the rest of Cubby’s run was in OHMSS and LALD. It’s not until GE that he actually stays in HQ, and then has one more moment out in the field in TND for his brief cameo.

    Does he stay at HQ in TLD? I suppose that inside the different Mi6 stations doesn't count as out in the field.

    He's at the end of the Koskov extraction.

    Yes, the Koskov defection definitely counts as in the field. He even has to climb up all those stairs! I misread @MakeshiftPython's comment, and thought he meant that we don't see him in the lab until GE.

    Is TB and LTK the only time he is 'behind enemy lines'? In other films he is on Mi6 owned ground, I think.

    Yes, and I think popping the pills at the end of the Koskov extraction was the first attempt to set up his future absence.

    Miraculously with TWINE, they managed to give him a proper sendoff/tribute, something that neither Lee nor Maxwell nor any of the Bonds prior to Craig got (although I'd argue Moore kind of did, and Dench did).

    Although it was weird. When did Q ever teach him not to let them see him bleed? :D

    @mtm If the plot does not require a gadget, if said gadget I'd either used as a deus ex machina or if a normal known tool would do just as well, then I'd say it's pretty much for the sake of it. And it's not a question of line to draw: it depends of the context. OHMSS, FYEO, CR and QOS barely had any gadgets, because they were not required and pretty much superfluous. Even in SF and SP, there are not that many.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,428
    Ludovico wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    It's not very interesting to restrict it to things they've already thought of, though. I want new things.
    Not just for the sake of new things. Like I said: "in new and interesting ways".

    I’m not sure what you’re saying. Bond is repetitive enough without restricting him to using the same things every time too.

    The problem with gadgets is that they tend to quickly escalate into absurd devices thar are featured more for the cool factor than any true utility.

    I don't really see that as a problem. I like the Bond films being big and crazy- that's why I'm a fan of them.
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I think they should be used sparingly and remain as plausible as possible. Logically, the gadgets should have multiple applications, should be adaptable to a number of missions and circumstances to be optimal. That's why the briefcase is one of my favourite. That does NOT mean the circumstances or the outcome should be repetitive. I really enjoyed the use of the DB5 in SF, not merely for nostalgic value, but because it was done differently than in GF: no fancy display of all its features, only good old machine gunning of unsuspecting henchmen. They seem to be going in this direction in NTTD.

    I don't mind the occasional old one coming back, but that does sound a bit boring. A major part of the joy of the gadgets is to see what he's got this time and what clever inventive idea they've come up with. Just having the same ones, even if used in different ways, removes that moment of joy. I'm not sure what this idea adds.

    That's why it's controversial I guess. I'm not against new gadgets, I just think they should not just be added for the sake of it, they should not be a sine qua non element in Bond films and they could reuse the gadgets they came up with.

    How do you define ‘for the sake of it’, though? And where are you drawing the line where they can’t invent new ones? From the next film?
    echo wrote: »
    FourDot wrote: »
    Funny thing occurred to me. In TB, Q mentions his presence on the field to be “highly irregular”.

    But I think from that point on the only time he wasn’t on the field for the rest of Cubby’s run was in OHMSS and LALD. It’s not until GE that he actually stays in HQ, and then has one more moment out in the field in TND for his brief cameo.

    Does he stay at HQ in TLD? I suppose that inside the different Mi6 stations doesn't count as out in the field.

    He's at the end of the Koskov extraction.

    Yes, the Koskov defection definitely counts as in the field. He even has to climb up all those stairs! I misread @MakeshiftPython's comment, and thought he meant that we don't see him in the lab until GE.

    Is TB and LTK the only time he is 'behind enemy lines'? In other films he is on Mi6 owned ground, I think.

    Yes, and I think popping the pills at the end of the Koskov extraction was the first attempt to set up his future absence.

    Miraculously with TWINE, they managed to give him a proper sendoff/tribute, something that neither Lee nor Maxwell nor any of the Bonds prior to Craig got (although I'd argue Moore kind of did, and Dench did).

    Although it was weird. When did Q ever teach him not to let them see him bleed? :D

    @mtm If the plot does not require a gadget, if said gadget I'd either used as a deus ex machina or if a normal known tool would do just as well, then I'd say it's pretty much for the sake of it.

    I guess I can see what you mean: perhaps the most 'for the sake of it' gadget was the Sharper Image credit card in AVTAK- he could have done that with a normal credit card but because he's Bond it's got a light in it and beeps! :)
    (Although I realise that actually is a joke about the Bond films spoofing themselves there to some extent)

    Even so, I'd keep using new ones rather than reusing old ones wherever possible; although I recognise that it is a bit weird that Bond has these things which prove to be invaluable and yet never seems to ask Q if he can have another one! :D


  • Posts: 12,475
    A big one I thought of:

    SP’s title sequence is one of my favorites in the whole series.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,638
    FoxRox wrote: »
    A big one I thought of:

    SP’s title sequence is one of my favorites in the whole series.

    I agree, I like the visuals from the past characters. Minor controversial opinion of my own: Greene and Camille should have been included in the sequence. Also, apparently Karen Gillan is one of the eyes in the sequence!
  • Posts: 12,475
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    A big one I thought of:

    SP’s title sequence is one of my favorites in the whole series.

    I agree, I like the visuals from the past characters. Minor controversial opinion of my own: Greene and Camille should have been included in the sequence. Also, apparently Karen Gillan is one of the eyes in the sequence!

    And Mathis. QOS gets the short end of the stick from EON all the time sadly :/
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    edited September 2021 Posts: 4,638
    FoxRox wrote: »
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    A big one I thought of:

    SP’s title sequence is one of my favorites in the whole series.

    I agree, I like the visuals from the past characters. Minor controversial opinion of my own: Greene and Camille should have been included in the sequence. Also, apparently Karen Gillan is one of the eyes in the sequence!

    And Mathis. QOS gets the short end of the stick from EON all the time sadly :/

    It does, and EON can only blame themselves for how it turned out (Marc Forster not being a Bond fan). While we’re at it, Felix Leiter should have been in the sequence. Felix Leiter has always been at the short end of the stick with EON. Jeffrey Wright (and Jack Lord) should have had more screentime as him.
  • edited September 2021 Posts: 6,844
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    A big one I thought of:

    SP’s title sequence is one of my favorites in the whole series.

    I agree, I like the visuals from the past characters. Minor controversial opinion of my own: Greene and Camille should have been included in the sequence. Also, apparently Karen Gillan is one of the eyes in the sequence!

    QOS does tend to get overlooked it seems. Quite unjustly too as I personally feel it reached a kind of artistic and storytelling high point in Craig's tenure and proved Craig's best Bond performance to date. I do think it gets a nod in SP's title sequence though when we see those two figures falling and reaching out to each other. It's undoubtedly meant to be Bond and Madeleine, but visually it very closely mirrors Bond and Camille's free-fall in QOS.

    Where did you hear that Karen Gillan provided one of the eyes for that sequence? Was she connected somehow with someone on the production?
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,638
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    A big one I thought of:

    SP’s title sequence is one of my favorites in the whole series.

    I agree, I like the visuals from the past characters. Minor controversial opinion of my own: Greene and Camille should have been included in the sequence. Also, apparently Karen Gillan is one of the eyes in the sequence!

    QOS does tend to get overlooked it seems. Quite unjustly too as I personally feel it reached a kind of artistic and storytelling high point in Craig's tenure and proved Craig's best Bond performance to date. I do think it gets a nod in SP's title sequence though when we see those two figures falling and reaching out to each other. It's undoubtedly meant to be Bond and Madeleine, but visually it very closely mirrors Bond and Camille's free-fall in QOS.

    Where did you hear that Karen Gillan provided one of the eyes for that sequence? Was she connected somehow with someone on the production?

    Honestly, I heard it from IMDB. I wouldn’t be surprised if she was, she has said she would be interested in becoming a Bond alumni.
  • MaxCasino wrote: »
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    A big one I thought of:

    SP’s title sequence is one of my favorites in the whole series.

    I agree, I like the visuals from the past characters. Minor controversial opinion of my own: Greene and Camille should have been included in the sequence. Also, apparently Karen Gillan is one of the eyes in the sequence!

    QOS does tend to get overlooked it seems. Quite unjustly too as I personally feel it reached a kind of artistic and storytelling high point in Craig's tenure and proved Craig's best Bond performance to date. I do think it gets a nod in SP's title sequence though when we see those two figures falling and reaching out to each other. It's undoubtedly meant to be Bond and Madeleine, but visually it very closely mirrors Bond and Camille's free-fall in QOS.

    Where did you hear that Karen Gillan provided one of the eyes for that sequence? Was she connected somehow with someone on the production?

    Honestly, I heard it from IMDB. I wouldn’t be surprised if she was, she has said she would be interested in becoming a Bond alumni.

    Interesting! True, you can't always believe what users submit to IMDB, but that's an interesting connection if true.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,553
    FoxRox wrote: »
    A big one I thought of:

    SP’s title sequence is one of my favorites in the whole series.

    I'm not even so sure this is so controversial, but maybe that's only because I agree with you 100%.
  • Posts: 12,475
    FoxRox wrote: »
    A big one I thought of:

    SP’s title sequence is one of my favorites in the whole series.

    I'm not even so sure this is so controversial, but maybe that's only because I agree with you 100%.

    I've seen a good deal of dislike for it around here.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited September 2021 Posts: 7,553
    FoxRox wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    A big one I thought of:

    SP’s title sequence is one of my favorites in the whole series.

    I'm not even so sure this is so controversial, but maybe that's only because I agree with you 100%.

    I've seen a good deal of dislike for it around here.

    Ah, fair enough!

    EDIT: OH, I thought you meant PTS. I liked the titles sequence a lot too! I remember having a discussion here somewhere about how weird it was that after FRWL, they went in the octopus direction rather than the ghost direction with the symbolism for Spectre (especially given the name of the organization), but I'm not mad they went that way because I think octopodes are really interesting and add an interesting symbolism to the organization. Having said all that I think they did a great job incorporating that symbolism into the titles sequence of Spectre. I like it a lot too.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    I'm also a fan of the SP title credits. I love how Kleinman swings for the fences when it comes to symbolism ever since GE. I'll even take it to a more controversial note:

    I think Kleinman is overtaking Binder as the best title artist. That's not a knock on Binder's best work, because his best IS hard to top. However, at some point in the 80s he just got lazy, settling down for cliched imagery that had very little to do with the actual plot. For example, there's absolutely no mistaking which titles were for which film when it came to TB, YOLT, OHMSS, DAF, LALD, TMWTGG, TSWLM, and MR. They carry all the thematic elements that those films were known for. FYEO is an oddity, because while it doesn't feature plot elements from the film it does feature Sheena Easton performing, and that's kind of a bold break from the usual formula. OP has a laser octopus and nearly nude circus performer, but those are fleeting rather than prevalent. AVTAK has skis, which is odd since that's only an element from the pre-titles. He seemed to be more interested in playing with his new black light toy. TLD, I guess vehicle headlights were supposed to represent "living daylights"? Why is someone shooting a pistol into the water? LTK has camera film, and casino imagery (would have worked for CR had that been made during Binder's run). Nothing to do with revenge or licence being revoked.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 2021 Posts: 16,428
    Yes I think Binder was great but he’s my third favourite titles designer behind Kleinman and Brownjohn.
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