Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • SaintMark wrote:
    Fleming creation has become influential because of EON, otherwise he would have been in the forgotten catalogue of thrillerwiters of yesterday.
    EONs James Bond 007 has done more for the genre than Ian Flemings James Bond 007.

    This is simply as true as it gets!
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    edited November 2013 Posts: 7,314
    EON would not be in existence without Fleming's novels. The cinematic world of 007 expanded upon the source material and created a cultural phenomenon but let us not forget where it all started.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    pachazo wrote:
    EON would not be in existence without Fleming's novels. The cinematic world of 007 expanded upon the source material and created a cultural phenomenon but let us not forget where it all started.

    No one's disputing otherwise.
  • Posts: 1,497
    At least Skyfall references the past Vesper arc

    0Brady, where did they reference this? I just don't recall it.
  • Posts: 2,402
    Matt_Helm wrote:
    SaintMark wrote:
    Fleming creation has become influential because of EON, otherwise he would have been in the forgotten catalogue of thrillerwiters of yesterday.
    EONs James Bond 007 has done more for the genre than Ian Flemings James Bond 007.

    This is simply as true as it gets!

    Oh here we go again... ladies and gentlemen, @Matt_Helm.

    Ian Fleming is the greatest author of all time IMO. NUMEROUS spy writers and writers in general have credited Bond and Fleming as an influence. The films would not exist without Fleming and the Dalton and Craig eras, which have produced four of the best films in the series, can be summed up as simply as "back to the books."

    So please. To quote Stringer Bell, "Take that shit somewhere else!"
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Ian Fleming is the greatest author of all time IMO

    That is some statement.

  • Matt_Helm wrote:
    SaintMark wrote:
    Fleming creation has become influential because of EON, otherwise he would have been in the forgotten catalogue of thrillerwiters of yesterday.
    EONs James Bond 007 has done more for the genre than Ian Flemings James Bond 007.

    This is simply as true as it gets!

    Oh here we go again... ladies and gentlemen, @Matt_Helm.

    Ian Fleming is the greatest author of all time IMO.

    This statement actually says it all.
  • pachazo wrote:
    EON would not be in existence without Fleming's novels. The cinematic world of 007 expanded upon the source material and created a cultural phenomenon but let us not forget where it all started.

    Quite. Amazing how some people forget this elementary point.

  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    edited November 2013 Posts: 11,139
    JBFan626 wrote:
    At least Skyfall references the past Vesper arc

    0Brady, where did they reference this? I just don't recall it.

    When Bond is talking to Severine at the Casino/Bar and says, "I know when a woman is afraid and pretending not to be."
  • Posts: 2,402
    Matt_Helm wrote:
    Matt_Helm wrote:
    SaintMark wrote:
    Fleming creation has become influential because of EON, otherwise he would have been in the forgotten catalogue of thrillerwiters of yesterday.
    EONs James Bond 007 has done more for the genre than Ian Flemings James Bond 007.

    This is simply as true as it gets!

    Oh here we go again... ladies and gentlemen, @Matt_Helm.

    Ian Fleming is the greatest author of all time IMO.

    This statement actually says it all.

    Who the hell are you agreeing with?
  • edited November 2013 Posts: 1,497
    doubleoego wrote:
    JBFan626 wrote:
    At least Skyfall references the past Vesper arc

    0Brady, where did they reference this? I just don't recall it.

    When Bond is talking to Severine at the Casino/Bar and says, "I know when a woman is afraid and pretending not to be."

    That's pretty subtle and not in any explicit way referencing Vesper. Bond could be talking about anyone, or no one at all - it could be showing simply that Bond has a keen sense for reading women. SF seemed to me pretty far removed from the CR-QOS story arc (though maybe I need to see it again to pick up on something I missed???)

    I find it odd to use this as an argument against DAF..."at least SF references this," when the reference in question seems so ambiguous and a projected interpretation . The DAF PTS does make it explicitly clear that Bond is hunting down Blofeld.

    DAF and OHMSS were too completely different films. Bottom line is Lazenby was not coming back, by his OWN admission. Bond films never continued a linear story arc across films, though there are references and appearances or mentionings of re-occuring characters (Dr. No, Spectre, Blofeld). So from a production stand-point, it doesn't make sense to shoe-horn in a new actor to continue the same story and tone set by OHMSS and Lazenby's Bond. It would be odd to have a different face exacting revenge. DAF's very direct task, was to keep the tradition set by the first 5 films going, Bond vs. villain in a fantastical adventure. The more it could remove itself from the revenge angle, given the circumstances, the better.
  • Matt_Helm wrote:
    Matt_Helm wrote:
    SaintMark wrote:
    Fleming creation has become influential because of EON, otherwise he would have been in the forgotten catalogue of thrillerwiters of yesterday.
    EONs James Bond 007 has done more for the genre than Ian Flemings James Bond 007.

    This is simply as true as it gets!

    Oh here we go again... ladies and gentlemen, @Matt_Helm.

    Ian Fleming is the greatest author of all time IMO.

    This statement actually says it all.

    Who the hell are you agreeing with?

    Sorry to confuse you. What I meant was,that YOUR statement tells everything I need to know about you knowledge of literature and your ability to judge it. Hope this makes things clear!
  • Posts: 2,402
    Matt_Helm wrote:
    Matt_Helm wrote:
    Matt_Helm wrote:
    SaintMark wrote:
    Fleming creation has become influential because of EON, otherwise he would have been in the forgotten catalogue of thrillerwiters of yesterday.
    EONs James Bond 007 has done more for the genre than Ian Flemings James Bond 007.

    This is simply as true as it gets!

    Oh here we go again... ladies and gentlemen, @Matt_Helm.

    Ian Fleming is the greatest author of all time IMO.

    This statement actually says it all.

    Who the hell are you agreeing with?

    Sorry to confuse you. What I meant was,that YOUR statement tells everything I need to know about you knowledge of literature and your ability to judge it. Hope this makes things clear!

    Sorry my tastes don't agree with yours? I have never in my life had a better reading experience than when I first read From Russia, with Love. At least I'm not the type who trashes Skyfall - and now, apparently, the man responsible for the entire Bond series - with arguments that are beyond comprehension.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    LeighBurne wrote:
    At least Skyfall references the past Vesper arc, while DAF not only forgets Irma ever existed, but also gives no mention to Tracy or Bond's thirst for revenge.
    Ditching Irma wasn't really their fault, the actress died.

    But as for completely ignoring Tracy's death, yeah, that was unforgivable and one the of major reasons I hate DAF so much.

    I realize that, but if they can recast Bond, they can recast Irma "Freaking" Bunt.
    SaintMark wrote:
    Fleming creation has become influential because of EON, otherwise he would have been in the forgotten catalogue of thrillerwiters of yesterday.
    EONs James Bond 007 has done more for the genre than Ian Flemings James Bond 007.

    Actually, since Ian had been trying to get Bond on the big screen long before his path ever crossed with the likes of Cubby and Harry, I'd say he was more than instrumental all by himself in fighting to get Bond on the big screen. Without Ian's determination to take his creation to the silver screen, who knows if Bond would have ever been such an enduring cinematic icon as we know him to be today.
  • @StirredNotShaken, I really question your judgment in proclaiming Ian Fleming the greatest author of all time. Even if you just mean "English language novelist" by that statement, it's still puzzling. Expanding it to all authors is utterly indefensible.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    @StirredNotShaken, I really question your judgment in proclaiming Ian Fleming the greatest author of all time. Even if you just mean "English language novelist" by that statement, it's still puzzling. Expanding it to all authors is utterly indefensible.

    Why is that unbelievable? Fleming is one of my top favorites too, with Sir Arthur Conan Doyle taking the top spot. Both men had absolutely brilliant syntax and created two of the most unforgettable characters we know today. You would have to travel long and far to find someone who hasn't heard of either Sherlock Holmes or James Bond. Both men did more with just one character than some writers do over an entire career, and I don't see how it is "puzzling" and "indefensible" to call them the greatest authors ever when they have been so influential; Fleming for decades now, and Doyle for over a century. It's @StirredNotShaken's opinion, and he isn't proclaiming it as an absolute fact. Who would you approve of him to fawn over? Shakespeare? Tolstoy? Dickens? A huge portion of people that love to read have a favorite author, so if they don't choose one of the so-called "masters of writing" like the men above seem to be, does that make their opinion balderdash? If Fleming's work (which is in fact brilliant) brought out feelings of joy not experienced elsewhere in the literary world for @StirredNotShaken, much like Doyle's writing does for me, why shouldn't he be allowed to make such a statement?
    doubleoego wrote:
    JBFan626 wrote:
    At least Skyfall references the past Vesper arc

    0Brady, where did they reference this? I just don't recall it.

    When Bond is talking to Severine at the Casino/Bar and says, "I know when a woman is afraid and pretending not to be."

    That's the one, thanks @doubleoego. It was a great way of referencing that Bond still thinks about Vesper (I mean, who else would he be talking about?) without dragging him back to the state he was at during QoS. There are also other references to the past films, but they are only my subjective thoughts, namely the DB5 appearing again which I like to think is the same one Bond wins in CR. That's just me though.
  • He didn't call Ian Fleming his "favorite", he said that he was the "greatest author of all time". If he had said "personal favorite English-language novelist" or "personal favorite author," I wouldn't have any problems with it, but to call Ian Fleming greater than everybody from Dickens to Hemingway to Shakespeare to Virgil is ridiculous. The James Bond or Star Wars is probably my favorite film series, but I can't seriously claim that they're better than Casablanca or Battleship Potemkin or The Searchers or The Godfather. Once again, if Ian Fleming is merely @StirredNotShaken's favorite author, I can't argue with him. But he's not even close to the greatest author of all time.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    if Ian Fleming is merely @StirredNotShaken's favorite author, I can't argue with him. But he's not even close to the greatest author of all time.
    I agree. And everyone knows that it's actually Stan "The Man" Lee who is the greatest author of all time! ;)
  • Posts: 2,402
    He didn't call Ian Fleming his "favorite", he said that he was the "greatest author of all time". If he had said "personal favorite English-language novelist" or "personal favorite author," I wouldn't have any problems with it, but to call Ian Fleming greater than everybody from Dickens to Hemingway to Shakespeare to Virgil is ridiculous. The James Bond or Star Wars is probably my favorite film series, but I can't seriously claim that they're better than Casablanca or Battleship Potemkin or The Searchers or The Godfather. Once again, if Ian Fleming is merely @StirredNotShaken's favorite author, I can't argue with him. But he's not even close to the greatest author of all time.

    Yes, but note the "IMO" added to the end of that statement.
  • I saw that, but all of these statements are opinions. What matters isn't that it's your opinion (as everything else here is), but whether Fleming is your personal favorite or the greatest, in your opinion.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    Yes, but note the "IMO" added to the end of that statement.

    I saw that. :)>-
  • Posts: 2,402
    I can't believe that me arguing against the most ridiculous "opinion" ever expressed on these forums was turned around into "Fleming's not that great." I think he IS that great and beside that, the point of my post was to show how ridiculous it is to say EON had more influence than Fleming.
  • I can't believe that me arguing against the most ridiculous "opinion" ever expressed on these forums was turned around into "Fleming's not that great." I think he IS that great and beside that, the point of my post was to show how ridiculous it is to say EON had more influence than Fleming.

    This isn't "Fleming's not that great," he is great, but he's nowhere near the greatest author of all time. And the statement about EON isn't completely wrong, either.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I can't believe that me arguing against the most ridiculous "opinion" ever expressed on these forums was turned around into "Fleming's not that great." I think he IS that great and beside that, the point of my post was to show how ridiculous it is to say EON had more influence than Fleming.

    This isn't "Fleming's not that great," he is great, but he's nowhere near the greatest author of all time. And the statement about EON isn't completely wrong, either.

    Who would you suggest, then?
  • Seven_Point_Six_FiveSeven_Point_Six_Five Southern California
    Posts: 1,257
    The gun barrel should stay at the end of the films for the remainder of Craig's tenure.
  • I can't believe that me arguing against the most ridiculous "opinion" ever expressed on these forums was turned around into "Fleming's not that great." I think he IS that great and beside that, the point of my post was to show how ridiculous it is to say EON had more influence than Fleming.

    This isn't "Fleming's not that great," he is great, but he's nowhere near the greatest author of all time. And the statement about EON isn't completely wrong, either.

    Who would you suggest, then?

    Any of the people I mentioned up the page. Shakespeare stands out. I've sadly never read Dostoevsky, but he's apparently excellent. James Joyce is incomprehensible, but literary critics adore him. In terms of ancient authors, it's tough to get around Homer and Virgil. But we could perhaps make another thread on classic literature, rather than bog down a discussion about Bond films with it.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I can't believe that me arguing against the most ridiculous "opinion" ever expressed on these forums was turned around into "Fleming's not that great." I think he IS that great and beside that, the point of my post was to show how ridiculous it is to say EON had more influence than Fleming.

    This isn't "Fleming's not that great," he is great, but he's nowhere near the greatest author of all time. And the statement about EON isn't completely wrong, either.

    Who would you suggest, then?

    Any of the people I mentioned up the page. Shakespeare stands out. I've sadly never read Dostoevsky, but he's apparently excellent. James Joyce is incomprehensible, but literary critics adore him. In terms of ancient authors, it's tough to get around Homer and Virgil. But we could perhaps make another thread on classic literature, rather than bog down a discussion about Bond films with it.

    And why are those choices any more worthy than Ian?

    I'm basically trying to make a point here about how each of us have our favorite authors, who may also be those we think are the best ever. I don't think we could ever narrow such a thing down realistically and claim one person as the best anything, much less best writer. It's a subjective thing, any everybody is entitled to have a say. I don't mean to single you out or anything here either, and I'm sorry for helping to drive this thread further off topic. I do much prefer discussing this kind of thing though, as opposed to racism and the sins of the white man.
  • I can't believe that me arguing against the most ridiculous "opinion" ever expressed on these forums was turned around into "Fleming's not that great." I think he IS that great and beside that, the point of my post was to show how ridiculous it is to say EON had more influence than Fleming.

    This isn't "Fleming's not that great," he is great, but he's nowhere near the greatest author of all time. And the statement about EON isn't completely wrong, either.

    Who would you suggest, then?

    Any of the people I mentioned up the page. Shakespeare stands out. I've sadly never read Dostoevsky, but he's apparently excellent. James Joyce is incomprehensible, but literary critics adore him. In terms of ancient authors, it's tough to get around Homer and Virgil. But we could perhaps make another thread on classic literature, rather than bog down a discussion about Bond films with it.

    And why are those choices any more worthy than Ian?

    I'm basically trying to make a point here about how each of us have our favorite authors, who may also be those we think are the best ever. I don't think we could ever narrow such a thing down realistically and claim one person as the best anything, much less best writer. It's a subjective thing, any everybody is entitled to have a say. I don't mean to single you out or anything here either, and I'm sorry for helping to drive this thread further off topic. I do much prefer discussing this kind of thing though, as opposed to racism and the sins of the white man.

    I prefer this to racism too, but I'll go make a thread on great authors so we can not hijack this thread.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    I do much prefer discussing this kind of thing though, as opposed to racism and the sins of the white man.
    Lone Ranger: "We're surrounded by Indians, what are we gonna do, Tonto?"
    Tonto: "What you mean 'WE', white man?"
  • Posts: 1,970
    The gun barrel should stay at the end of the films for the remainder of Craig's tenure.

    no no no. It made sense as to why the gunbarrel wasn't in the beginning for CR, QOS, SF, but now they have no more excuses to not have it in the beginning for Bond 24
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