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Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited October 2021 Posts: 16,309
    ProfJoeButcher wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    Man, you guys are still going on about it?

    :)) I'm fascinated by how little sense the plot makes, and I'm easily baited when my comments are broken up into a bunch of little quotes interspersed with inane responses.

    Why be a dick about it? I've explained the flaws in what you're saying but because you can't admit to them you have to be abusive. It's a very familiar pattern with you.
    This was just a fun conversation where we were coming up with theories, but you have to turn it into a battle. Life with you must be very tiring.
    ProfJoeButcher wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    i
    After you've released her into Bond and MI6's protection? Not a very solid plan.

    How does Mr White get her to hand over a bunch of money to his side when she has been released into Bond's and MI6's protection (and is over her boyfriend)?

    Again: he has her boyfriend (Le Chiffre does not). She's evidently not over him.

    I'm sorry if you find that 'inane', but it's all in the bloody film. I'm tending to agree with Makeshift here, you're making problems where there aren't any.

    ProfJoeButcher wrote: »

    I admit, your idea can work, if Mendel just walks around with that encryptor all the time, without security, and not just when he's en route to the winner of the poker match. LC can overpower him, enter his own account number (assuming slide_99 is wrong about whether that's possible), and hope Bond's password was real, and if it isn't, they have time to torture out another one before the encryptor is deactivated or recovered or whatever. I mean, if that's what you think they're going for, super.

    One is the lock and one is the key. What do you think his plan might possibly be when he's trying to get the key?
    ProfJoeButcher wrote: »
    I wish I could just get an overview of what LC and the others thought they were doing. Slide_99's explanation seems to require "VESPER" to be the password for the bank account, which is crazy. Yours seems to require obtaining a Swiss bank's encryptor to be "simple". The first idea seems impossible, and the second adds ideas not even suggested by the film, and strike me as more implausible as getting an already cooperative person to act in her own interests. But that is obviously subjective.

    Your idea for LC to let Vesper go free and then enter his account details at some indeterminate point in the future (which, let's not forget: does not happen- so much for adding ideas not even in the film) would require some kind of mind control. Or are you saying he'd torture her and then, when that moment comes to enter the number, he would kindly ask her to remember how painful that torture was a few days ago? Bond is free, he can't threaten him; Vesper is free, he can't threaten her. LC doesn't even know about the Algerian as far as we know. She would have zero reason to do as LC has told her. And once she's told Bond about what LC is trying to do, he would tell her that LC would need to go into protective custody and would be powerless: even less reason to enter the account number.
    If you think stealing a man's suitcase is more implausible than mind control, or LC finding some ruse to access it... well I can't help you to understand how 'inane' that is.

    I'm not interested in talking to you on this any further because you had to make it unpleasant.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,171
    NickTwentyTwo wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    cwl007 wrote: »
    So when exactly does Vesper decide to betray Bond?
    Is it always on the cards (no pun) from the train meet? Or at some point later in the story?
    An interesting detail I only really spotted on my most recent CR viewing is Vesper's reaction immediately after typing the password in at the hospital. If you don't know what's coming next it is throwaway but knowing about the betrayal beforehand as a viewer it can be read as guilt or regret. It's a very nice moment.

    She had been working for SPECTRE presumably for years at that point. We later see in Mr. White’s secret room that there was an interrogation VHS with her name on the label. That tracks well with the novel, where she had been working for SMERSH for years.

    No, it’s her boyfriend who is the Spectre/Quantum agent. He seduces important women, they stage a kidnapping, Quantum says “we have your boyfriend and we’ll kill him unless you do as we say.” There’s every reason to think she actually works for the Treasury like she says. She implicated in the plot by Quantum through her boyfriend. This part at least was made very clear in the film and in the end of Quantum.

    Why do you interpret my post as disputing what you just said?
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,546
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    NickTwentyTwo wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    cwl007 wrote: »
    So when exactly does Vesper decide to betray Bond?
    Is it always on the cards (no pun) from the train meet? Or at some point later in the story?
    An interesting detail I only really spotted on my most recent CR viewing is Vesper's reaction immediately after typing the password in at the hospital. If you don't know what's coming next it is throwaway but knowing about the betrayal beforehand as a viewer it can be read as guilt or regret. It's a very nice moment.

    She had been working for SPECTRE presumably for years at that point. We later see in Mr. White’s secret room that there was an interrogation VHS with her name on the label. That tracks well with the novel, where she had been working for SMERSH for years.

    No, it’s her boyfriend who is the Spectre/Quantum agent. He seduces important women, they stage a kidnapping, Quantum says “we have your boyfriend and we’ll kill him unless you do as we say.” There’s every reason to think she actually works for the Treasury like she says. She implicated in the plot by Quantum through her boyfriend. This part at least was made very clear in the film and in the end of Quantum.

    Why do you interpret my post as disputing what you just said?

    Ah I interpreted your post as Vesper being a Quantum true believer, but I suppose you’re right. I don’t necessarily believe she’d been working for them for years, though. My feeling is that her boyfriend was a kind of sleeper agent who they had form a relationship with Vesper, and when they found out Bond would be in the game with Le Chiffre, they switched her on through the kidnapping plot. But it doesn’t make much of a difference for CR.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    @mtm, it's inane because one gets the impression you just enjoy arguing. Within the space of one comment, you suggest getting an encryptor from a Swiss bank would be no problem, because these guys managed to capture a 00 agent. You also suggest controlling Vesper would be difficult once she's under the protection of this same 00 agent. It's just blather.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,205
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    CraigMooreOHMSS wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    cwl007 wrote: »
    So when exactly does Vesper decide to betray Bond?
    Is it always on the cards (no pun) from the train meet? Or at some point later in the story?
    An interesting detail I only really spotted on my most recent CR viewing is Vesper's reaction immediately after typing the password in at the hospital. If you don't know what's coming next it is throwaway but knowing about the betrayal beforehand as a viewer it can be read as guilt or regret. It's a very nice moment.

    She had been working for SPECTRE presumably for years at that point. We later see in Mr. White’s secret room that there was an interrogation VHS with her name on the label. That tracks well with the novel, where she had been working for SMERSH for years.

    I wonder then what the timeline for the kidnapping of her "boyfriend" was then in relation to the events of CR.

    Might have been a year or two, it’s vague enough to say anything. In the novel I think it’s implied that her boyfriend was kidnapped during WWII, which means in the book she had been working for SMERSH for at least 7 years. I could be wrong.

    It is very vague, indeed. I guess the focus on the Love Knot in both CR and QoS would give weight to the idea that Vesper and the boyfriend had been together for quite a while - otherwise it wouldn't mean much to her. SPECTRE were playing a long game with her, evidently.

    Sidebar: I think implicating Mathis was a narrative mistake in the film, as good as I think it is. And that mistake is compounded further by the decision to kill him off in QoS.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited October 2021 Posts: 7,546
    It was important for Bond to implicate Mathis, but yes, Le Chiffre’s line implicating Mathis doesn’t help things. But as I’ve mentioned in my longer comments above, Le Chiffre could have deduced that Bond would suspect Mathis for the tell, and so saying this to Bond would either 1) double down on Bond’s suspicion or create one had there not been one there already. I put it down to smart supervillain thinking, because, why not.

    Also I think you’re right re: Vesper. Long game for sure, wait until there’s an opportunity to use her. That’s why it only makes sense that she actually works for the Treasury.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    CraigMooreOHMSS wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    CraigMooreOHMSS wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    cwl007 wrote: »
    So when exactly does Vesper decide to betray Bond?
    Is it always on the cards (no pun) from the train meet? Or at some point later in the story?
    An interesting detail I only really spotted on my most recent CR viewing is Vesper's reaction immediately after typing the password in at the hospital. If you don't know what's coming next it is throwaway but knowing about the betrayal beforehand as a viewer it can be read as guilt or regret. It's a very nice moment.

    She had been working for SPECTRE presumably for years at that point. We later see in Mr. White’s secret room that there was an interrogation VHS with her name on the label. That tracks well with the novel, where she had been working for SMERSH for years.

    I wonder then what the timeline for the kidnapping of her "boyfriend" was then in relation to the events of CR.

    Might have been a year or two, it’s vague enough to say anything. In the novel I think it’s implied that her boyfriend was kidnapped during WWII, which means in the book she had been working for SMERSH for at least 7 years. I could be wrong.

    It is very vague, indeed. I guess the focus on the Love Knot in both CR and QoS would give weight to the idea that Vesper and the boyfriend had been together for quite a while - otherwise it wouldn't mean much to her. SPECTRE were playing a long game with her, evidently.

    Sidebar: I think implicating Mathis was a narrative mistake in the film, as good as I think it is. And that mistake is compounded further by the decision to kill him off in QoS.

    The first time I saw it, when Le Chiffre makes his comment, I thought they were flipping the story around to make it fresh for readers of Fleming...

    Having made it as murky as they did in CR, whether intentionally or not, I wouldn't have minded if that uncertainty continued into the direct sequel.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited October 2021 Posts: 8,171
    NickTwentyTwo wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    NickTwentyTwo wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    cwl007 wrote: »
    So when exactly does Vesper decide to betray Bond?
    Is it always on the cards (no pun) from the train meet? Or at some point later in the story?
    An interesting detail I only really spotted on my most recent CR viewing is Vesper's reaction immediately after typing the password in at the hospital. If you don't know what's coming next it is throwaway but knowing about the betrayal beforehand as a viewer it can be read as guilt or regret. It's a very nice moment.

    She had been working for SPECTRE presumably for years at that point. We later see in Mr. White’s secret room that there was an interrogation VHS with her name on the label. That tracks well with the novel, where she had been working for SMERSH for years.

    No, it’s her boyfriend who is the Spectre/Quantum agent. He seduces important women, they stage a kidnapping, Quantum says “we have your boyfriend and we’ll kill him unless you do as we say.” There’s every reason to think she actually works for the Treasury like she says. She implicated in the plot by Quantum through her boyfriend. This part at least was made very clear in the film and in the end of Quantum.

    Why do you interpret my post as disputing what you just said?

    Ah I interpreted your post as Vesper being a Quantum true believer, but I suppose you’re right. I don’t necessarily believe she’d been working for them for years, though. My feeling is that her boyfriend was a kind of sleeper agent who they had form a relationship with Vesper, and when they found out Bond would be in the game with Le Chiffre, they switched her on through the kidnapping plot. But it doesn’t make much of a difference for CR.

    I think it would have had to been much longer than that. Because enough time had passed between the “kidnapping” and the casino job, she was at a point where she was open enough to fall in love with Bond even if she had no intention. Had her boyfriend just been “kidnapped” when LeChiffre set up the tournament, I don’t think she would have tried saving Bond from death both times because her boyfriend’s kidnapping was still fresh.

    That’s why Fleming implied it had been years she was a double for SMERSH. Falling in love with Bond had to coincide with her resigning to the likelihood that her boyfriend was probably dead after all those years. The film just kept it vague enough for anyone to view it how they prefer.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,546
    Aaaah got you, forgot that detail from the novel, makes sense.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,171
    A suicide note certainly would have cleared a lot more for the movie if they went that route, instead of going by M’s conjecture. Even though M was totally right, it’s still conjecture.
  • cwl007cwl007 England
    Posts: 611
    Genuine question, because the more I understand about Vesper the more I like CR. At times I find her betrayal a little confusing.
    So, if she was a wrong 'un the whole time why bother saving Bond's life from the poisoning?
    With him out of the way the correct people would get the money, from her point of view, as Le Chifre was the likely poker winner.
    Why complicate it by risking Bond winning only to then have to steal the money?
    It's for that reason I assumed she was turned sometime around the torture scene.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,546
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    A suicide note certainly would have cleared a lot more for the movie if they went that route, instead of going by M’s conjecture. Even though M was totally right, it’s still conjecture.

    True, it certainly helped with the novel.

    Anyways, I’ve made my long posts about what I feel the film is communicating happens throughout the story. It works for me and leaves no loose ends so I’ll let you all continue the discourse. Good luck!
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,171
    cwl007 wrote: »
    Genuine question, because the more I understand about Vesper the more I like CR. At times I find her betrayal a little confusing.
    So, if she was a wrong 'un the whole time why bother saving Bond's life from the poisoning?
    With him out of the way the correct people would get the money, from her point of view, as Le Chifre was the likely poker winner.
    Why complicate it by risking Bond winning only to then have to steal the money?
    It's for that reason I assumed she was turned sometime around the torture scene.

    She saved his life because she was already in love with him. That’s partly why she was refusing to buy him in as well because she didn’t want to put him in any more danger now that he was out of the game.
  • MinionMinion Don't Hassle the Bond
    edited October 2021 Posts: 1,165
    For what it’s worth, LC drops in the Mathis line because it’s important for Bond to not suspect Vesper at all for the torture sequence. Why Vesper can’t transfer the money to the bad guys account anyway after Bond wins and then run away, I don’t understand. Unless her allegiance is with Mr. White/Quantum and not Le Chiffre directly, so it’s important he gets the money back himself?
  • cwl007cwl007 England
    Posts: 611
    Thank you, that helps.👍
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited October 2021 Posts: 3,147
    NickTwentyTwo wrote: »
    Maybe she says something to this effect, they hit her or something and the scream is real.
    I don't think they shot it, but one draft of the script had a counterpart to Bond's interrogation, with Vesper tied naked to a chair in the other room, being tortured by Valenka. The scream was real, I reckon.

  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,147
    NickTwentyTwo wrote: »
    No, it’s her boyfriend who is the Spectre/Quantum agent. He seduces important women, they stage a kidnapping, Quantum says “we have your boyfriend and we’ll kill him unless you do as we say.” There’s every reason to think she actually works for the Treasury like she says. She implicated in the plot by Quantum through her boyfriend. This part at least was made very clear in the film and in the end of Quantum.
    Exactly.

  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,147
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    She saved his life because she was already in love with him. That’s partly why she was refusing to buy him in as well because she didn’t want to put him in any more danger now that he was out of the game.
    I'll say it again - exactly.

  • GerardGerard
    Posts: 5,983
    My controversial opinion : It was a good thing that Pierce Brosnan didn't get the Bond part in the 80s. If he had, he would have been seen as another Roger Moore on the strength of Remington Steele, that is, a light comedy actor. He needed a few movies where he could display his harder side, such as The Deceivers or The Fourth Protocol before we could see him as Bond. Feel free to disagree.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited October 2021 Posts: 7,546
    There was a featurette for Black Adam that came out today, and Brosnan (who's in the film) says something along the lines of, "I've never seen anything like it. I did four James Bond films over ten years and, nothing compares to this."
    Controversial opinion from Brosnan for sure. :P
    Very beginning:
  • jobojobo
    Posts: 7,507
    Jesus! If there is any proof that no Bond film should be overanalyzed, it´s this thread :))
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,546
    jobo wrote: »
    Jesus! If there is any proof that no Bond film should be overanalyzed, it´s this thread :))

    You might say overanalyzing a Bond film is quite… controversial?
  • jobojobo
    Posts: 7,507
    NickTwentyTwo wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    Jesus! If there is any proof that no Bond film should be overanalyzed, it´s this thread :))

    You might say overanalyzing a Bond film is quite… controversial?

    True, it is the right thread for it. But your discussion gave me a headache... ;)
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    jobo wrote: »
    Jesus! If there is any proof that no Bond film should be overanalyzed, it´s this thread :))

    :)) Well at least we got to the bottom of it! ;)
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,272
    CraigMooreOHMSS wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    CraigMooreOHMSS wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    cwl007 wrote: »
    So when exactly does Vesper decide to betray Bond?
    Is it always on the cards (no pun) from the train meet? Or at some point later in the story?
    An interesting detail I only really spotted on my most recent CR viewing is Vesper's reaction immediately after typing the password in at the hospital. If you don't know what's coming next it is throwaway but knowing about the betrayal beforehand as a viewer it can be read as guilt or regret. It's a very nice moment.

    She had been working for SPECTRE presumably for years at that point. We later see in Mr. White’s secret room that there was an interrogation VHS with her name on the label. That tracks well with the novel, where she had been working for SMERSH for years.

    I wonder then what the timeline for the kidnapping of her "boyfriend" was then in relation to the events of CR.

    Might have been a year or two, it’s vague enough to say anything. In the novel I think it’s implied that her boyfriend was kidnapped during WWII, which means in the book she had been working for SMERSH for at least 7 years. I could be wrong.

    It is very vague, indeed. I guess the focus on the Love Knot in both CR and QoS would give weight to the idea that Vesper and the boyfriend had been together for quite a while - otherwise it wouldn't mean much to her. SPECTRE were playing a long game with her, evidently.

    Sidebar: I think implicating Mathis was a narrative mistake in the film, as good as I think it is. And that mistake is compounded further by the decision to kill him off in QoS.

    I agree about Mathis. If Mathis weren't implicated in CR, this particular section of the film could focus more on the romance and be a bit shorter. The viewer starts to figure her out once Vesper sees Gettler on the dock in Venice, anyway.
  • jobojobo
    edited October 2021 Posts: 7,507
    ProfJoeButcher wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    Jesus! If there is any proof that no Bond film should be overanalyzed, it´s this thread :))

    :)) Well at least we got to the bottom of it! ;)


    Say hello to Felix Leiter from me ;)
  • BT3366BT3366
    Posts: 1,916
    NickTwentyTwo wrote: »
    There was a featurette for Black Adam that came out today, and Brosnan (who's in the film) says something along the lines of, "I've never seen anything like it. I did four James Bond films over ten years and, nothing compares to this."
    Controversial opinion from Brosnan for sure. :P
    Very beginning:
    True, the scale is much larger from Bond films. Of course, anybody can create an epic city and setting using CGI technology. Bond isn't about that route.

    Then again, I didn't see anything in this that makes it any more interesting than any other superhero film out there. At least not from this glimpse. In fact, I probably won't recall this project until it comes out.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,097
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    cwl007 wrote: »
    Genuine question, because the more I understand about Vesper the more I like CR. At times I find her betrayal a little confusing.
    So, if she was a wrong 'un the whole time why bother saving Bond's life from the poisoning?
    With him out of the way the correct people would get the money, from her point of view, as Le Chifre was the likely poker winner.
    Why complicate it by risking Bond winning only to then have to steal the money?
    It's for that reason I assumed she was turned sometime around the torture scene.

    She saved his life because she was already in love with him. That’s partly why she was refusing to buy him in as well because she didn’t want to put him in any more danger now that he was out of the game.

    Even if she'd hated him, Vesper is not a murderer: she's a mole who is the subject of blackmail. She must make sure Le Chiffre wins, I don't think she'd be able to have Bond's death on her conscience. When he recovers, she tries to dissuade him to play.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited October 2021 Posts: 7,546
    Ludovico wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    cwl007 wrote: »
    Genuine question, because the more I understand about Vesper the more I like CR. At times I find her betrayal a little confusing.
    So, if she was a wrong 'un the whole time why bother saving Bond's life from the poisoning?
    With him out of the way the correct people would get the money, from her point of view, as Le Chifre was the likely poker winner.
    Why complicate it by risking Bond winning only to then have to steal the money?
    It's for that reason I assumed she was turned sometime around the torture scene.

    She saved his life because she was already in love with him. That’s partly why she was refusing to buy him in as well because she didn’t want to put him in any more danger now that he was out of the game.

    Even if she'd hated him, Vesper is not a murderer: she's a mole who is the subject of blackmail. She must make sure Le Chiffre wins, I don't think she'd be able to have Bond's death on her conscience. When he recovers, she tries to dissuade him to play.

    Yes, but I’m not sure how much it would weigh on her conscience if Valenka poisoned Bond, and Bond went to save himself, and failed to do so. If anything, that *might* be criminal negligence causing death, but not really murder, I don’t think. I tend to agree with @MakeshiftPython; I think they’re communicating some feelings Vesper has for Bond at that point.
  • Since62Since62
    Posts: 1,629
    You know, they might be saving this for a future Black Adam movie, but he has a Scottish cousin, who builds roads...MacAdam...
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