Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • Posts: 1,910
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    Goldfinger and GoldenEye are extremely overrated.
    TB & DN > GF
    TND & TWINE > GE

    Also I believe TLD is up there with FRWL & CR as flawless masterpieces.
    It's literally FRWL but in the 80's.

    I agree about GE, but not GF. I had fallen out of favour with it for a while, but recent viewing renewed my love for it. I always did prefer FRWL to it, but GF is still classic Bond!
    GE is a bit of a bore for me, with THE most annoying set of characters in one film ( Trevelyn, Boris, Onatopp, that evaluator woman in the opening scene, and King of them all, the bloody awful Jack Wade) , not to mention Brossa who is stiff and wooden, not to mention smug!

    I could not disagree more on the topic of GE, but to each their own, I guess. Especially regarding TWINE, one of least interesting films in the series for me.

    GoldenEye feels like a "Greatest Hits" movie, it was carried by the hype of its release and Brosnan is mostly just relying on his good looks, acting cool and unfazed by everything while gunning down entire armies with an AK. The N64 videogame has also inflated and influenced its rankings.

    In TWINE Bond actually behaves like a spy. His performance is undeniably better and he shows a wide variety of emotions throughout the film. In GE the only time we see Brosnan act this way is when he drops Trev. TWINE actually has intrigue and interwoven plotlines and themes while GE just feels like an action flick. In that regard TWINE is more rewatchable. I would only watch GE when introducing it to someone who's new to the franchise. It's the Goldfinger of the 90's that 'checks all the boxes' so to speak whereas TWINE requires multiple watches to truly appreciate it.

    GE's visuals haven't aged well either. Aesthetically the movie looks drab and grey similar to LTK, both of these movies have a TV series quality look to them. I just can't get over how dated GoldenEye looks, I don't have this problem with TND and TWINE, despite these movies all being in the 90's..

    Ourumov is boring, we've already had "Russian officer gone rogue" with Klebb and Orlov. And the whole hacking computers thing with Boris is cringe. Natalya's acting is wooden.
    Onatopp and Trev carry the movie in my opinion, they're great but Trev's screentime is too little. TWINE definitely has its flaws (Renard is under-utilized and Christmas Jones..) but Brosnan and Sophie Marceau's performance make up for it.

    You could've also added Koskov as another rogue Russian general just 2 films before GE. The concept was well worn, but they had to explore the whole fall of the iron curtain theme and went back to the well yet again. You can also look at Onatopp as a blatant copy of NSNA's Fatima Blush. Though it was fresh at the time, you can look at Trevelyan the first of the traitor in the department villains that the MI series would run with and wear out over the next several years.

    I also am not a big fan of GE and find it vastly overrated. But I can't accept TWINE as having anything over it as it's my least favorite film of the series. I noted in another thread recently about how the cinematography was cold and grey for the most part and generally unappealing. TWINE is a mess, wanting to be a deeper spy film and drama and isn't involving in either way and Bond just seems like a sap for not seeing through the whole charade and we don't even get decent action to distract us from all that.

    It's why I actually prefer TND as my favorite Brosnan film as it is up front about being a tried-and-true stop WWIII storyline focusing on the action and we get some decent spying thrown in with a minimum of the this time its personal theme that would overwhelm the series. DAD does this to that degree as well, although I have a tougher time defending it, but I had a much better time than with TWINE.
  • Bond just seems like a sap for not seeing through the whole charade
    Didn't he immediately know what's up after Renard said:
    "there's no point in living if you can't feel alive" ?

    Bond went and confronted Elektra about this. I didn't feel like Bond was being played like a fool at all. At best he struggled to apprehend Elektra because of his feelings towards her, not necessarily because he's in the dark.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,185
    Bond just seems like a sap for not seeing through the whole charade
    Didn't he immediately know what's up after Renard said:
    "there's no point in living if you can't feel alive" ?

    Bond went and confronted Elektra about this. I didn't feel like Bond was being played like a fool at all. At best he struggled to apprehend Elektra because of his feelings towards her, not necessarily because he's in the dark.

    And Renard knew all about Bond’s “shhhouuuulder”…. 😣
  • edited July 14 Posts: 2,141
    [Edit - wrong thread]
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,435
    BT3366 wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    Goldfinger and GoldenEye are extremely overrated.
    TB & DN > GF
    TND & TWINE > GE

    Also I believe TLD is up there with FRWL & CR as flawless masterpieces.
    It's literally FRWL but in the 80's.

    I agree about GE, but not GF. I had fallen out of favour with it for a while, but recent viewing renewed my love for it. I always did prefer FRWL to it, but GF is still classic Bond!
    GE is a bit of a bore for me, with THE most annoying set of characters in one film ( Trevelyn, Boris, Onatopp, that evaluator woman in the opening scene, and King of them all, the bloody awful Jack Wade) , not to mention Brossa who is stiff and wooden, not to mention smug!

    I could not disagree more on the topic of GE, but to each their own, I guess. Especially regarding TWINE, one of least interesting films in the series for me.

    GoldenEye feels like a "Greatest Hits" movie, it was carried by the hype of its release and Brosnan is mostly just relying on his good looks, acting cool and unfazed by everything while gunning down entire armies with an AK. The N64 videogame has also inflated and influenced its rankings.

    In TWINE Bond actually behaves like a spy. His performance is undeniably better and he shows a wide variety of emotions throughout the film. In GE the only time we see Brosnan act this way is when he drops Trev. TWINE actually has intrigue and interwoven plotlines and themes while GE just feels like an action flick. In that regard TWINE is more rewatchable. I would only watch GE when introducing it to someone who's new to the franchise. It's the Goldfinger of the 90's that 'checks all the boxes' so to speak whereas TWINE requires multiple watches to truly appreciate it.

    GE's visuals haven't aged well either. Aesthetically the movie looks drab and grey similar to LTK, both of these movies have a TV series quality look to them. I just can't get over how dated GoldenEye looks, I don't have this problem with TND and TWINE, despite these movies all being in the 90's..

    Ourumov is boring, we've already had "Russian officer gone rogue" with Klebb and Orlov. And the whole hacking computers thing with Boris is cringe. Natalya's acting is wooden.
    Onatopp and Trev carry the movie in my opinion, they're great but Trev's screentime is too little. TWINE definitely has its flaws (Renard is under-utilized and Christmas Jones..) but Brosnan and Sophie Marceau's performance make up for it.

    You could've also added Koskov as another rogue Russian general just 2 films before GE. The concept was well worn, but they had to explore the whole fall of the iron curtain theme and went back to the well yet again. You can also look at Onatopp as a blatant copy of NSNA's Fatima Blush. Though it was fresh at the time, you can look at Trevelyan the first of the traitor in the department villains that the MI series would run with and wear out over the next several years.

    I also am not a big fan of GE and find it vastly overrated. But I can't accept TWINE as having anything over it as it's my least favorite film of the series. I noted in another thread recently about how the cinematography was cold and grey for the most part and generally unappealing. TWINE is a mess, wanting to be a deeper spy film and drama and isn't involving in either way and Bond just seems like a sap for not seeing through the whole charade and we don't even get decent action to distract us from all that.

    It's why I actually prefer TND as my favorite Brosnan film as it is up front about being a tried-and-true stop WWIII storyline focusing on the action and we get some decent spying thrown in with a minimum of the this time its personal theme that would overwhelm the series. DAD does this to that degree as well, although I have a tougher time defending it, but I had a much better time than with TWINE.

    In TWINE’s defense, I think EON wanted a bit more drama. Michael Apted was known for directing actors in great performances, so that’s why I think he got the job. I see TWINE as honoring the past, while showing us a bit of the future of Bond. That’s why it’s tone is a bit all over the place. I still like it simply because it was my first Bond movie, and the N64 game was even better than the movie. That’s my controversial opinions on TWINE.

    Now for GE. I can write a story about Alec Trevelyan, simply because of his connection to Bond. I can’t do that with Silva, because he’s too M focused. Trevelyan is one of the few Bond villains that could lead a spinoff book, or get built up as a bad guy in a series of movies. It’s kind of hard to do that with other Bond villains (apart from Blofeld, and maybe Goldfinger and Scaramanga).
  • Posts: 3,744
    MaxCasino wrote: »

    In TWINE’s defense, I think EON wanted a bit more drama. Michael Apted was known for directing actors in great performances, so that’s why I think he got the job. I see TWINE as honoring the past, while showing us a bit of the future of Bond. That’s why it’s tone is a bit all over the place.

    Apted is an interesting director. I'm not overly familiar with his other films, but having looked up a few interviews with him about his non-Bond work, he seems to me like a more commercial version of Ken Loach in a weird way. The only major difference I can see is he channelled his concerns of class/how it affects people through genre films and his early soap opera/documentary work.

    That's not to say such a director couldn't make a great Bond film. Especially considering that the main villain is a rich, psychopathic oil heiress. I think the only thing that really separates Apted's work on Bond from the likes of Sam Mendes, or in the literary context Kingsely Amis (both of whom had similar concerns they channeled into their work) is that Apted by his own admission wasn't much of a Bond fan. I suspect it wasn't something he was interested in or understood that deeply. By comparison Mendes and Amis really understood Bond and were certainly fans.

    It's a shame because he really was a very accomplished director. Just the wrong choice.
  • Posts: 1,910
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    BT3366 wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    Goldfinger and GoldenEye are extremely overrated.
    TB & DN > GF
    TND & TWINE > GE

    Also I believe TLD is up there with FRWL & CR as flawless masterpieces.
    It's literally FRWL but in the 80's.

    I agree about GE, but not GF. I had fallen out of favour with it for a while, but recent viewing renewed my love for it. I always did prefer FRWL to it, but GF is still classic Bond!
    GE is a bit of a bore for me, with THE most annoying set of characters in one film ( Trevelyn, Boris, Onatopp, that evaluator woman in the opening scene, and King of them all, the bloody awful Jack Wade) , not to mention Brossa who is stiff and wooden, not to mention smug!

    I could not disagree more on the topic of GE, but to each their own, I guess. Especially regarding TWINE, one of least interesting films in the series for me.

    GoldenEye feels like a "Greatest Hits" movie, it was carried by the hype of its release and Brosnan is mostly just relying on his good looks, acting cool and unfazed by everything while gunning down entire armies with an AK. The N64 videogame has also inflated and influenced its rankings.

    In TWINE Bond actually behaves like a spy. His performance is undeniably better and he shows a wide variety of emotions throughout the film. In GE the only time we see Brosnan act this way is when he drops Trev. TWINE actually has intrigue and interwoven plotlines and themes while GE just feels like an action flick. In that regard TWINE is more rewatchable. I would only watch GE when introducing it to someone who's new to the franchise. It's the Goldfinger of the 90's that 'checks all the boxes' so to speak whereas TWINE requires multiple watches to truly appreciate it.

    GE's visuals haven't aged well either. Aesthetically the movie looks drab and grey similar to LTK, both of these movies have a TV series quality look to them. I just can't get over how dated GoldenEye looks, I don't have this problem with TND and TWINE, despite these movies all being in the 90's..

    Ourumov is boring, we've already had "Russian officer gone rogue" with Klebb and Orlov. And the whole hacking computers thing with Boris is cringe. Natalya's acting is wooden.
    Onatopp and Trev carry the movie in my opinion, they're great but Trev's screentime is too little. TWINE definitely has its flaws (Renard is under-utilized and Christmas Jones..) but Brosnan and Sophie Marceau's performance make up for it.

    You could've also added Koskov as another rogue Russian general just 2 films before GE. The concept was well worn, but they had to explore the whole fall of the iron curtain theme and went back to the well yet again. You can also look at Onatopp as a blatant copy of NSNA's Fatima Blush. Though it was fresh at the time, you can look at Trevelyan the first of the traitor in the department villains that the MI series would run with and wear out over the next several years.

    I also am not a big fan of GE and find it vastly overrated. But I can't accept TWINE as having anything over it as it's my least favorite film of the series. I noted in another thread recently about how the cinematography was cold and grey for the most part and generally unappealing. TWINE is a mess, wanting to be a deeper spy film and drama and isn't involving in either way and Bond just seems like a sap for not seeing through the whole charade and we don't even get decent action to distract us from all that.

    It's why I actually prefer TND as my favorite Brosnan film as it is up front about being a tried-and-true stop WWIII storyline focusing on the action and we get some decent spying thrown in with a minimum of the this time its personal theme that would overwhelm the series. DAD does this to that degree as well, although I have a tougher time defending it, but I had a much better time than with TWINE.

    In TWINE’s defense, I think EON wanted a bit more drama. Michael Apted was known for directing actors in great performances, so that’s why I think he got the job. I see TWINE as honoring the past, while showing us a bit of the future of Bond. That’s why it’s tone is a bit all over the place. I still like it simply because it was my first Bond movie, and the N64 game was even better than the movie. That’s my controversial opinions on TWINE.
    And you've hit on a major problem with TWINE in that trying to honor the past and show the future it way underachieves at both, not resulting in memorable Bond hallmarks and feeling like a dry run for the Craig era. Brosnan was vocal about wanting to "peel back the layers" and all that. Apted made sense and did okay with what he had in a genre he wasn't probably comfortable in. It's just a very unsuccessful blend and I have no problem believing a game would succeed much better.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,435
    Richard Maibaum was overused for writing. He was too full of himself.
    I like the idea of Bond spin-offs in the literary world, not the cinema world. Blofeld, Goldfinger and their second hand muscle deserve a full book to themselves.
    Michael G Wilson needs to fully retire.
    Blofeld needs to be reintroduced as much as Bond himself. It’ll be hard to keep an actor quiet from the internet now nowadays.
    Ralph Fiennes should stay on as M. He can now play Sir Miles.
    M’s death at the end of SF feels like a tribute to Judi Dench herself, over M.
    Martin Campbell shouldn’t come back. He got lucky, because he directed the series when it was at a low point.
    Adam West should have played Bond in Diamonds Are Forever. The movie is basically a giant Batman ‘66 episode, inside a Bond movie.
  • Posts: 1,132
    DAF has a great plot.
  • DAF has a great plot.

    I can partially agree with that: it has a great premise. A diamond smuggling pipeline disappearing bit by bit and Bond has to track the dying pipeline and also save the girl that is his contact. Then also with Bond tracking the diamonds to the lab and investigating there.

    I think the plot issues come later though, with the Plenty drama et cetera. Basically anything after the hour mark.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,513
    DAF has a great plot.

    DAF and MR are in my top 10
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited August 13 Posts: 3,675
    DAF has a great plot.

    The book? Interestingly yes, the film? I may disagree with you.

    I wish the film adapted the book very closely, and no maybe another controversial opinion, but DAF Blofeld (Charles Grey) is a lot more worse than the Spangs, at least the Spangs were a bit menacing, Grey's Blofeld was played for joke.

    DAF book is not even in my bottom tier of Bond books.

    The difference is, Fleming made a deep research regarding Diamond smuggling (even had a book dedicated to it in 'The Diamond Smugglers'), so the book was a bit realistic in that regard, now, the film, came from the producers whom I doubt cared about Fleming's researches and deep knowledge of such issues due to them tweaking the plot and changing it, messing it more, the worse was, they may little did know about Diamond Smuggling, to which I strongly suspect, based on how the film turned out (plot wise), I think my suspicions are true, they may had little knowledge about Diamond Smuggling to which Fleming had great knowledge into.
  • edited August 13 Posts: 1,132
    I think the movie is better than the novel too.

    The satellite stuff is a great idea and it's a good use of the Macguffin.

    LALD has a paper thin plot if you compare it to this one.
  • Posts: 2,913
    Neither the book nor the film of DAF have particularly strong plots--both mostly rely on Bond following the diamond plotline, but the film comes apart after the satellite reveal. You'd think the idea of Blofeld setting off nukes and holding the world to ransom would have been treated with a little more urgency, but the film is rather blase about it. And then we get that limp climax on the oil rig...

    The book has an advantage in being vastly stronger in characterization. Film Tiffany is a silly bimbo next to the literary version, book Felix is far more vivid, and even Shady Tree is more interesting on the page. And while the Spangs aren't Fleming's strongest villains, on film they would have probably worked better than Gray's effete Blofeld.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,053
    I've just revisited DAF myself. I get that people are generally displeased with Charles Gray as Blofeld. To be honest, I like his Blofeld. The man was given a terrible story to work with and posing as a woman didn't do him any favours either, but that wasn't Gray's fault, surely. No one, not even Donald or Telly, could have made it work any better. Yet somewhere amidst all this stuff about body doubles and diamond-powered laser satellites is a solid performance by Gray, who has a commanding voice and a great anger face.
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