On Her Majesty's Secret Service- Very overrated?

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  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    That said, even in the novel we don't have Bond adopting a silly ass voice when pretending to be Sir Hilly, though you get the sense he does moderate his manner. I suppose Lazenby's voice doesn't pass for a man of learning, that said in the previous film Bond was meant to have gone to Cambridge! But if he had to be dubbed, they should have got in someone other than George Baker, it is so obvious it is him, it doesn't match Lazenby's vocal at all, it doesn't sound like him. They should have got someone anonymous to do it so you think it might be Lazenby

    Funny, the first time I watched OHMSS, it didn't even pass my mind that George was dubbed. It was only after reading trivia bits and the such that I learned of the dubbing. And it's bloody good dubbing at that!
    That said, Bond looks young in this as the actor was 29, not many 29 year olds are knighted, eh, if he is to pass himself off as Sir Hilary? I suppose if the rugged Connery had played Bond, or if they'd got Burton in for a one-off, both could have passed for an early 40s academic type (A Fine Madness, Who's Afraid of Virginia Wold? respectively) who could be knighted.

    Personally, I don't think that Lazenby looked thirty (in a good way).
    Bray wearing glasses is another film touch I think; in reality it would only take one of the gals to nick them playfully and put them on and exclaim 'But Sir Hilly, you're not short sighted at all!' for the gig to be up.

    Now that's just nitpicking.

    "Blofeld angling for a pardon made more sense in the novel when he had only the failed Thunderball operation behind him, in the films he's been on the case since Dr No - a pardon would be as likely to have been offered to Bin Laden. Not plausible him wanting to be made a count, but it's all Fleming so it gets a free pass"

    Difference being, Blofeld's schemes failed everytime, unlike Bin Laden

    As for the Count business, it think it's entirely plausible. It just shows what an absolute nutter Blofeld is, for being as petty as demanding to be recognised as a Count.

    I could go on all day about OHMSS's problems.

    Please do.


  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Getafix wrote: »

    May be I'm being overly generous about the subtelty of Laz's performance and not all of this was intentional, but one of the things I love about his performance is actually the way he doesn't need to dominate every scene. Connery and his shere charisma does just that - just commands and dominates whenever he's on the screen. Laz has charisma in bucket-loads (IMO), but some of the best scenes are when he is on the back foot. It's just the perfect performance for this story and this movie.

    I was reading someone the other day talking about how the point where you really see him fully, totally falling for Tracy, is where he's sitting disconsolately on the bench, trying to escape Blofeld's men and sort of being at his wits end. And then Tracy skates up in front of him and rescues him. You could never imagine that working with Connery. Just brilliant. And of course, as you rightly say, the following scenes are just brilliant.

    It would have been just fantastic to see a broken, hate-filled Laz take on Blofeld in the next movie.

    The more I think about it, the more I think Laz's departure was actually one of the biggest losses to the series. More so than Dalton even, dare I say it!

    One of the most insightful posts I've read on here for a very long time. If I didnt know better I'd have said it was written by @thewizardofice himself!

    This is why Laz despite not being the best actor the world has ever seen is right up there - because he plays the man Fleming wrote about. Not a superman, not a swaggering playboy, just a normal guy who did a difficult, dirty job to the best of his abilities and living under the shadow of death tried to enjoy the finer things in life while he had the chance.

    There are only very few performances in his career when Connery is not Connery (personally I would say probably DN, FRWL, The Hill and The Offence) and his charisma and star power which gives great screen presence is not something Fleming's Bond was imbued with.

    The scene where he is sitting on the bench by the ice rink visibly terrified and exhausted and just waiting for the net to close around him is one of the greatest scenes of the series (especially when you consider it in conjunction with the staggeringly good 10 minutes that precedes it). This is not (post FRWL) Sean or Rog or Broz with a gadget or a quip up their sleeve to dig them out of any scrape. This is a bloke who is knackered by the exhaustion of his daring escape and is out of options so all he has left is to keep his head down and hope no one spots him. But someone does!! And then she saves him by driving as well as he would have done himself. Thats what finally pushes him over the edge to decide this girl is a keeper.

    And great movie star though Sean is, I dont really think that his towering presence could sell a picture of a man so desolate as that moment. Despite all the people around him enjoying the New Year party Bond has never been more solitary and Laz and Hunt deliver in spades the sense of a normal guy who is in real trouble (the scene where Bond chokes the SPECTRE goon on the edge of the cliff while trying not to be overheard is another sublime moment illustrating Bond's vulnerability that I cant really picture Sean doing as well as Laz).
    I could go on all day about OHMSS's problems.

    I think youre going to have to because the argument that 'someone couldve put on his glasses and blown his cover' doesnt strike me as a flim thats fatally flawed to a DAD extent. Please keep them coming - I'm hoping for your sake that you've got something better than that in your arsenal.

  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,157
    @TheWizardOfIce

    I agree about Connery. Though he gave us a sense of anger over Kerim's death in FRWL, his Bond's countenance would have regretted Tracy's loss like an empty glass of Scotch: there's more where it came from so lighten up. Lazenby's vulnerability dominates that moment and thus also sells it. This scene has always been instrumental in my appreciation for the Laz.
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    edited October 2014 Posts: 5,080
    I respect everybody's opinion when it comes to the world of James Bond, whether DAD is your favourite film, or that you think Jack White is the absolute best performer to have contributed a Bond theme, but ONE thing I find extremely hard to buy is the "Connery should have been in OHMSS" notion.
    Sorry, but no. After his half-arsed performance in YOLT, that would have been detrimental to OHMSS' quality.
  • edited October 2014 Posts: 7,507
    I guess saying Connery should have done OHMSS, is just like saying Guy Hamilton should have directed it. It would have been a completely different film altogether, and its kind of missing the point.
  • @MayDayDiVicenzo
    My opinion has always been: A good Connery should have been in OHMSS.

    Anyways, I too respect everyone's Bond opinions. I find OHMSS to be very overrated and one of the weaker movies in the series. And I'm rather tired of apologizing for it as well.
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    Whether or not Connery was in his prime is irrelevant. Having Connery in OHMSS would have meant that it would be changed beyond recognition, as @jobo says.

  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    edited October 2014 Posts: 4,043
    Connery would have never suited OHMSS.

    I get a little sick of his god like status in the series, granted when he was good he was unbeatable but when he was at his worst he was lazy and not one bit bothered portraying Ian Fleming's James Bond. He sounds like some Glaswegian brickie at the end of YOLT and his appearance in DAF is a disgrace. He bear hardly any resemblance to the Bond we saw in TB. Connery brilliance has more to do with Terence Young than people would like to admit.

    I'd rather have George Lazenby's inexperienced but spirited performance in the film than Connery who would have never conveyed the feeling that film required.

    Yes OHMSS is my favourite entry and while I know it's not perfect to me it's the best the series has to offer.

  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,275
    Shardlake wrote: »
    Connery would have never suited OHMSS.

    I get a little sick of his god like status in the series, granted when he was good he was unbeatable but when he was at his worst he was lazy and not one bit bothered portraying Ian Fleming's James Bond. He sounds like some Glaswegian brickie at the end of YOLT and his appearance in DAF is a disgrace. He bear hardly any resemblance to the Bond we saw in TB. Connery brilliance has more to do with Terence Young than people would like to admit.

    I'd rather have George Lazenby's inexperienced but spirited performance in the film than Connery who would have never conveyed the feeling that film required.

    Yes OHMSS is my favourite entry and while I know it's not perfect to me it's the best the series has to offer.

    I couldn't agree more. Connery would have ruined OHMSS. If there's one emotion Connery never projected as Bond, it's vulnerability. (I have a hard time seeing him in CR as well.)

    OHMSS is my favorite entry as well. There's something poetic and almost unbearably tragic about Tracy's arc.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited October 2014 Posts: 6,275
    Sorry, old chap.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited October 2014 Posts: 6,275
    <>

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    echo wrote: »
    If there's one emotion Connery never projected as Bond, it's vulnerability.
    Agreed. His most vulnerable moment IMO was on the table in GF, but true sorrow is not a Connery speciality.
  • Posts: 12,462
    chrisisall wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    If there's one emotion Connery never projected as Bond, it's vulnerability.
    Agreed. His most vulnerable moment IMO was on the table in GF, but true sorrow is not a Connery speciality.

    Thirded. Connery had every single thing down other than the vulnerability. And it doesn't necessarily bother me that he's not very vulnerable, but I just appreciate it when it's a trait in other Bond actors. Lazenby did tremendously with this, and I also think he did a better job than Connery would have in OHMSS.

  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    Agreed to all things said above, especially @Shardlake's sentiments regarding Connery's God-like status.

  • I think my comments about OHMSS stand up, I don't need much more, though there is plenty. Agree that the glasses thing is nitpicking, yet then again it isn't because it puts Bond in disguise more than in Fleming's book. Bond isn't really a guy who does disguise, plus it makes it more obvious he is acting like a giant prat for a significant section of the movie, rather like if Connery's Turning Japanese moment (okay, that is a visual disguise) had lasted more than eight minutes or so of screentime, it is just offputting.

    I just can't stand Lazenby doing his Sir Hilly bit, it makes my skin crawl. The fact that the gals will sleep with such a silly ass also feels wrong, it is unfettered promiscuity unlike copping off with Bond when he acts like Bond, a cool macho guy. It suggests they're just after a hunk of meat and have no discernment.

    As for Connery not doing vulnerability, well, he wasn't called upon to do that much in his other films. He might have played it differently in OHMSS, just as his performance in GF is different to that of the preceding film, you tailor it to the movie.

    That said, in Christopher Bay's excellent book on Connery he does point out that the actor might not have looked good in a ski suit, being more overweight, and an OHMSS with a Bond who doesn't look good in a ski suit may as well go home.

    If any of you guys know of a 29 year old who has been knighted, please spill.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited October 2014 Posts: 15,713
    I agree that Connery's performance owes a lot to Terrence Young. From what I heard Connery wasn't really 'Bondian' before being casted, but he did have this 'cat-walk' and magnetic physical traits when he entered the room that made everyone look at him. Young seemed to understand the James Bond character perfectly, and spent countless hours with Connery before filming, teaching him how to behave like Bond would do. So I think, and it saddens me to say to this the Connery fans (and I am one of them), is that if Young hadn't been there to 'educate' Connery, his perfomance as Bond wouldn't have been to the level of what we saw in DN, FRWL and TB. Not saying he would have acted badly, but what makes him the ultimate Bond for many fans would not have been there.
  • Well Bray points out that Connery's performance in Dr No is quite rough at times. To be fair, I am not sure that Connery then could have turned in a decent performance in a film like OHMSS where Bond is on screen for most of the film (and it's a long film at that) and has a lot to do, it's very Bondcentric, even down to the title. I mean, most of the films do at some point cut away to what the villain is doing to give the character a bit of breathing space - FRWL, GF (the villain's address to the gangsters), TLD and most of 'em do that, the only exception is OHMSS. Or maybe SF, but Craig is a good enough actor to carry it. Oh, they cut away a bit when MI6 blows up.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,713
    I think, yes, Bond was a omni-present, vulnerable and romantic character in OHMSS. I don't think, no offense to Connery, that he could have portrayed the character that way, even in the height of his tenure around FRWL-TB. Connery is pretty much the alpha-male figure, would be difficult to see him more vulnerable. I mean, look at him in 'The Rock', he's in his mid-60's and is still a badass alpha-male in the film. I think the only 2 other actors who could have portrayed Bond the same way Lazenby did are Dalton and Craig. Craig is an alpha-male yes but I think he has more acting pedigree to 'become' the character. Afterall, in QOS where he shows superhuman strenght in the action scenes he can also be vulnerable in scenes like Mathis' death and the airplane scene. But as @Getafix said, Lazenby's inexperience and naivety helps him. Makes Bond appear more human to have him portrayed by such actor. And still, when needed to be tough, I thought Lazers wasn't overshadowed by Rigg, Lee and Savalas.
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    Never noticed that Bond is omni-present in OHMSS; I guess that's one of the reasons I love the movie so much.
  • I would agree that Craig of CR and Lazenby should have swapped places! Lazenby would have been better as the young rookie agent imo, then getting his balls mashed in. And Craig better as the Burtonesque type ready to mellow and settle down.

    Connery did the alpha male thing as Bond, that's how he played him. In the 70s he did, as one critic pointed out, Men Who Think They Know rather than Men They Know. So Robin and Marion, A Bridge Too Far, The Lion in Winter, The Anderson Tapes, even The Time Bandits. Here he plays guys who know the world, go in with a plan, and the whole thing slips away from them, they are not such the big guy. Whether Connery would have brought that to OHMSS I do not know in fairness.

    But Connery reverted to type after his success in the late 1980s, after playing vulnerable types in Indy and Untouchables, he started playing these know all types in The Rock and Rising Sun.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited October 2014 Posts: 15,713
    I agree with all that you said there, @NapoleonPlural. While I do think Connery did play vulnerable characters well later-on, the question is would you have bought it during his Bond tenure? I mean, look at pics of him as Bond. He is world-weary, badass, confident, alpha-male to the extreme. I don't think Connery at that age could be believable as a vulnerable type. In the 60's he was the ultimate alpha-male figure. Sure OHMSS was released in 1969, but I think those who say Connery should have been in it, he couldn't have been looking out-of-shape like in YOLT and DAF but more like his golden years of DN-TB. And.. I wouldn't buy that for the vulnerable Bond of OHMSS. I think Lazenby, despite some flaws, capture the looks and attitude perfectly of a more human, vulnerable Bond.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited October 2014 Posts: 9,117

    If any of you guys know of a 29 year old who has been knighted, please spill.

    A Baronet's title passes down to his son so Hilary could be 3 years old and be called Sir Hilary as long as his old man has carked it.

    Do your research.
  • Posts: 2,402
    I think, yes, Bond was a omni-present, vulnerable and romantic character in OHMSS. I don't think, no offense to Connery, that he could have portrayed the character that way, even in the height of his tenure around FRWL-TB. Connery is pretty much the alpha-male figure, would be difficult to see him more vulnerable. I mean, look at him in 'The Rock', he's in his mid-60's and is still a badass alpha-male in the film. I think the only 2 other actors who could have portrayed Bond the same way Lazenby did are Dalton and Craig. Craig is an alpha-male yes but I think he has more acting pedigree to 'become' the character. Afterall, in QOS where he shows superhuman strenght in the action scenes he can also be vulnerable in scenes like Mathis' death and the airplane scene. But as @Getafix said, Lazenby's inexperience and naivety helps him. Makes Bond appear more human to have him portrayed by such actor. And still, when needed to be tough, I thought Lazers wasn't overshadowed by Rigg, Lee and Savalas.

    You've had quite the turnaround, on Craig, haven't you?
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited October 2014 Posts: 15,713
    @StirredNotShaken I am pretty sure anyone who doesn't like Craig as Bond, even the biggest haters can't deny he is a brilliant actor. And yes, I had a turnaround when I saw SF in cinema. I was blown away by it, when I walked out of the cinema I almost checked if there was another showing right away so I could see it twice before going back home. Loved it so much went I arrived home I put CR and QOS in the blu ray player, grabbed a drink and some chips and I was left wondering why I didn't like them. SF went straight in my top 3 and CR/QOS entered my top 10.
  • edited October 2014 Posts: 1,596
    Whether or not Connery was in his prime is irrelevant. Having Connery in OHMSS would have meant that it would be changed beyond recognition, as @jobo says.

    My opinion stands, as I'm not a huge fan of the film. Just because he didn't show vulnerability in previous films doesn't mean he wasn't capable when OHMSS called for it.

    However the point is moot because the Connery we would have gotten in OHMSS would have been Connery from YOLT. So, for all of my babbling, I suppose I agree - OHMSS would not have been better with Connery. I just really don't like George Lazenby.

    Obviously I'm in the minority, just some thoughts.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited October 2014 Posts: 15,713
    Even if you remove Bond from the film, OHMSS feels like a movie from a different tenure than the previous 5 outings. It's like Connery doing DAD, Craig doing MR or Moore doing FRWL, they all have their own distinctive style and none of them would fit 100% in another actor's film. Even when you say 'Dalton should have started with AVTAK'. Probably he should have, but it would be a completly different movie alltogether, so he wouldn't have done Moore's AVTAK but his own AVTAK. You cannot replace one of the Bond's by another without doing a drasticly different film.
  • Oh yeah definitely. Well said. (I like AVTAK quite a lot with old-man Moore in it, but great point nonetheless). That's one of the best things about being a Bond fan. There's so much variety. It never gets old. Every one has its own flavor.
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    I concur 100% with @DaltonCraig007.

  • Posts: 2,402
    @StirredNotShaken I am pretty sure anyone who doesn't like Craig as Bond, even the biggest haters can't deny he is a brilliant actor. And yes, I had a turnaround when I saw SF in cinema. I was blown away by it, when I walked out of the cinema I almost checked if there was another showing right away so I could see it twice before going back home. Loved it so much went I arrived home I put CR and QOS in the blu ray player, grabbed a drink and some chips and I was left wondering why I didn't like them. SF went straight in my top 3 and CR/QOS entered my top 10.

    I can understand why you'd have hated QoS (I still find it incredibly incompetent to be honest) but I'm glad you had a turnaround on CR.
  • Posts: 4,762
    Ah, this thread has been resurrected I see!

    My opinion is really no different than when I put this discussion into effect. There was a time when I once would try as hard as I possibly could to find good in OHMSS, strictly for the sake of being more objective, but it's to no avail. I realize now, after taking a step back from Bond for a brief time, that i just don't like OHMSS. Nothing in the movie motivates me to watch it, save for some of the Piz Gloria action-related scenes, and it feels like such a drag- I'm not one of those movie viewers that feels the need to have constant gunfire and explosions, but wow, OHMSS would be the perfect Bond movie to fall asleep too, hahaha. It's strange how you have to take a step back from the series for a moment in order to solidify your likes and dislikes about it. I suppose I'll never find this supposed "magic" that OHMSS is said to have!
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