On Her Majesty's Secret Service- Very overrated?

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  • Posts: 15,124
    Well Bray points out that Connery's performance in Dr No is quite rough at times. To be fair, I am not sure that Connery then could have turned in a decent performance in a film like OHMSS where Bond is on screen for most of the film (and it's a long film at that) and has a lot to do, it's very Bondcentric, even down to the title. I mean, most of the films do at some point cut away to what the villain is doing to give the character a bit of breathing space - FRWL, GF (the villain's address to the gangsters), TLD and most of 'em do that, the only exception is OHMSS. Or maybe SF, but Craig is a good enough actor to carry it. Oh, they cut away a bit when MI6 blows up.

    I think this has to do with Blofeld being kept in the shadows for so long, an elusive presence, which makes him far more menacing IMO. In a way, Blofeld is a Dracula figure in OHMSS, as I mentioned in other threads. Both novels have a lot in common. Even the character's motivations are similar.
  • Oh, I'm not rebuking the film for that. Just saying it gives Bond, or the actor playing him, a lot to do.

    I agree with 00Beast really, and early on in the film there are a lot of scenes, a run of three really, that just don't work for me. I mean, the casino thing isn't too bad I guess, but then the whole sleeping with Tracy doesn't sit right to me, the chemistry isn't there and she isn't the hot-blooded Mediterrean of the book, who finds a good man to give her a good seeing to, as Draco says. I recall the events of the book more, where Bond walks down the hotel corridor feeling quite inadequate, that sits with me.

    There are a lot of fights with Draco's men, but I really can't see how it makes sense. I mean, in a Bond film we accept it cos everyone is trying to kill Bond, but if Draco sets his men on any guy who tries it on with his daughter, trying to kill him, no wonder she is a little pissy - it's the new era of permissiveness and she still can't get laid! A line by Draco explaining that they thought the famous Bond of the secret service was trying to inveigle his way in with her as leverage, or maybe in the last year she had been subject to a dangerous stalker and they thought Bond was him, that would work. But unlike the book, Bond does actually kill one of Draco's men, so there is bound to be some froideur.

    It makes no great impact for me so when Bond joins forces with Draco's men for the climax I sort of forget they are the same guys there at the beginning, it should feel kind of like, hey, we used to be enemies and now we are on the same side, sweet.

    When Draco's men kidnap Bond at gunpoint and the car goes over the bridge, it feels weird and you'd need Connery's charisma do make gold out of lines like 'Mystery tour, eh? I'd think we'd be much happier if you put that away...' It just feels really odd.

    Then, the scene at Draco's office is for me the most boring scene in the entire film, real send you to sleep stuff. I have seen it many times and simply cannot recall what he is saying, somehow that Tracy got married, is that right? What happened there? The actor's voice just seems subdued and a scene that crackles with electricity in the book doesn't work here.

    Again, a great actor could convey subtext, Connery would show that he is just going along with Draco to nail Blofeld and not committing himself, and Draco should be more desperate and volatile to make such a daft offer to a bloke like Bond.

    Then, when Bond and Tracy meet at the bullfight, it is Bond who should suddenly feel real horror and remorse when he realises it looks like Tracy has been duped and made to feel like a bargaining chip. When he goes after her it should have the kind of urgency that Connery could bring (though might not have) but with Lazenby it just looks like a corny guy goes after the gal thing, it might be Cliff in one of his movies.
  • Watched Dracula (1958) last night and it surprised me how much Fleming's OHMSS owes in part to this Gothic horror.

    It starts with a bookish fellow travelling in Romania to the Count's castle, but public transport (a horse and carriage) will only take him so far, he has to go the rest on foot. When he checks in, the Count is not there to meet him, but later it is made clear that every attention should be paid to him, to help him with his studies uninterrupted.

    It soon becomes clear that the visitor is there under false pretences and is really out to investigate the nefarious doings of the Count, however he is very much on his own in this deserted spot. You don't get Count de Bleauchamp's belles of hell, though you feel it's not for lack of trying, he knows how to get women into trouble!

    It seems to me that Fleming was very much doing a take off of the whole thing in OHMSS, but it doesn't play so well in the film because of Savalas' American accent, to fit in with the Dracula vibe you'd need either Pleasance (though he didn't seem exactly sexual) or Gray in his Hammer Devil Rides Out mode.

    I do feel OHMSS would have been better with that eerie Hammer horror vibe, instead the whole Piz Gloria thing to be seems a bit cheesy. Having the women in Piz Gloria come under his hypnotic spell would seem better with a sinister actor like Lee, with Savalas it doesn't quite have that exotic, sinister power. The Hammer vibe would have felt ominous so that the death of Tracy would have felt foretold somehow, whereas in the movie it just seems to come out of the blue imo.
  • Posts: 15,124
    Funny I watched it too two days ago. Great movie, but pale in comparison of the original novel. OHMSS is actually closer to Dracula than many of the movies based on the novel. I might start a thread about it.
  • Posts: 1,146
    This is simply one of the best films in the series, and frankly embarrasses everything from here to Casino Royale. I like Goldeneye and the Dalton films well enough, but man this is a good picture. I basically wish that Lazenby had not been such a headache and all the 70's films would have been like this instead of the giggle-fests they turned into.
    An awesome, awesome film.
  • Posts: 1,146
    A agree with all if this:
    OHMSS overrated? Well, I guess it depends who you ask. I love it, myself- and it's in my top 5. But at the same time, I'm not sure I'd recommend that as the first movie to a Bond newcomer.

    The movie isn't perfect. I never liked the dubbing, and that's a hefty chunk of the movie right there. Lazenby wore some ridiculous clothes in this movie-- but I guess since he was a model he looks as good as possible in them. Too bad his wardrobe wasn't so crazy though. The 'brainwashing' of the girls was pretty cheesy, but hey, it was the 60's I guess.

    That said, there's a LOT going for it though! I'm not at all interested in what kind of guy he is off screen-- I've always loved Lazenby as Bond. Without any doubt, he should have done 2 or maybe 3 (Lazenby in LALD... could have been pretty cool!)
    Another reason I like Lazenby: maybe I'm not from the Globe Theatre or anything but when I watch an action movie and I know that the guy could really kick as much ass in real life as he does on screen, it adds that little icing on the cake for me and I enjoy it that much more! Lazenby's a badass, no question.

    I loved Tracy and she was a great match for Bond- I totally bought the notion of those two settling down. Plus, thanks to her, the ending really hit hard. Bond girls have died before but this was way different- and would effect Bond from then on (excluding DAF, lol)

    But lastly, make no mistake, the soundtrack in this movie is the best in the whole series

  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    It's my top Film and Book, so I'd have to say
    No it isn't overrated. ;)
  • Posts: 1,146
    One of the best pictures in the series, and in my opinion in the conversation for best film overall. Just a fantastic story. Too bad Laz was such a fool, HIS should have been the Bond for the '70's.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I think it's a great Bond movie.

    The score is ridiculously good. One of Barry's top 2 or 3. And it has the great Louis Armstrong...

    The introduction of the new Bond in the Aston is very well done. I love the fight sequence on the beach and even enjoyed him breaking the 4th wall (Connery was such a legend by then that he almost had to).

    The ski sequences are the standout to me. Insanely good all the way down to the village of Lauterbrunnen and the Tracy tryst. The cinematography at Piz Gloria is absolutely outstanding.

    It has its flaws (Lazenby's dubbed voice, the editing is off in some of the fight sequences, Draco/Tracy did not seem related to me, and I did not particularly like Savalas as Blofeld)

    Despite these flaws, it's a very enjoyable, and different Bond movie. A little slow in places, but still very good.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Not that I'm any judge of acting ability, but I thought Lazenby was fine. Pity he didn't do a couple more.
  • Posts: 1,146
    I thought he as fine as well. I'd have loved to see ol' George in LALD and MWTGG. Those films would have had completely different tones.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I can easily imagine George in those films.
  • Posts: 1,146
    He would have kicked @$$ instead of the tickle/giggle/gag-fests those films turned into.

    That sherif….geez.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I'm my opinion sadly the "light hearted" aspect to the films started with DAF, perhaps if Lazenby had have stayed on the films might have stayed a little harder edged.
  • Posts: 1,146
    I totally agree. DAF is definitely a downturn, at least for me. OHMSS is such an impressive film. I always assumed that the bad guys from the opening were a result of a gambling debt on Tracy's part. That's what she was running away from.
    Awesome film altogether.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Great to see all this love for Laz. It is not coincidental that OHMSS is such a great movie - Laz's performance is also very good. He would have become a legend had he done a couple more in a similar vein. I love Sir Rog but am not a huge fan of his first two. I thought the tone of OHMSS was just perfect. It does seem like the general public just didn't get him. Same as with Tim to a certain extent.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    Getafix wrote: »
    It does seem like the general public just didn't get him.
    The general public doesn't READ. Laz & Dalt's movies never went tropospheric because the public expected big or funny by then. Craig's Bond is only possible due to Bin Laden. The only thing he was ever good for. Sadly.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I remember reading that OHMSS was a big flop at the box office, yet if you look at the figures it was pretty successful. Not as much as YOLT but the spy movie craze was passing, but it still did big numbers and of course Lazenby was asked back but refused.
    The big problem for LTK was the 15 rating it was given drastically cutting its potential audience numbers. Also Dalton had a very hard job, to replace the much loved Sir Roger, and at the same time try and take the films back to their harder edged less humour filled beginnings.
    I love both films, being a fan of the books, I really like how OHMSS kept as much of Fleming's brilliant story, and LTK trying to inject some Fleming back into the character. :)
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2014 Posts: 23,883
    I think it's always difficult to replace a charismatic, much loved Bond who's had a long run. The public just has its expectations set, and any changes are difficult to accept initially.

    It's even that more difficult if the Bond you are replacing has more on-screen charisma than you do (definitely the case with both Sean vs. George & Roger vs Tim) irrespective of their relative acting abilities.

    Only Dan has managed it recently, and that's because he's at least on par with Pierce for charisma and some elements of the Bond public were longing for a change in tone after DAD's excesses - i.e. the timing was right. Perhaps Tim would have been more accepted if he started with FYEO, following MR's excesses, and similarly George if they asked him to replace Sean & make OHMSS (continuity aside) only following Sean's DAF. I think Tim in particular would have been excellent for FYEO, although Rog did a great job on that one.

    As they say, 'timing is everything'.
  • Posts: 11,425
    bondjames wrote: »
    I think it's always difficult to replace a charismatic, much loved Bond who's had a long run. The public just has its expectations set, and any changes are difficult to accept initially.

    It's even that more difficult if the Bond you are replacing has more on-screen charisma than you do (definitely the case with both Sean vs. George & Roger vs Tim) irrespective of their relative acting abilities.

    Only Dan has managed it recently, and that's because he's at least on par with Pierce for charisma and some elements of the Bond public were longing for a change in tone after DAD's excesses - i.e. the timing was right. Perhaps Tim would have been more accepted if he started with FYEO, following MR's excesses, and similarly George if they asked him to replace Sean & make OHMSS (continuity aside) only following Sean's DAF. I think Tim in particular would have been excellent for FYEO, although Rog did a great job on that one.

    As they say, 'timing is everything'.

    I agree, although it's notable the ease with which DC replaced Brozzer.

    We do sometimes exaggerate the negative response to DALTON as well. He got positive reviews for TLD in particular. Had he done another one or two, perhaps more in line with the tone of TLD, who knows how the general public might have ended up seeing him.

    After LTK Dalton said he wanted the next one to be more lighthearted and I am sure EON would have been thinking the same thing. To be honest, with a few tweaks GE was tailor made for Dalts.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    Getafix wrote: »
    To be honest, with a few tweaks GE was tailor made for Dalts.
    You're about making me cry here... if only... [-O<
    Still love Bros though; go ahead, make fun. :-@
  • Posts: 11,425
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    To be honest, with a few tweaks GE was tailor made for Dalts.
    You're about making me cry here... if only... [-O<

    I can see a number of rather lacklustre scenes in that film really crackling with Dalts in the lead.
  • Posts: 15,124
    I actually think the movie works far better with Brosnan, sometimes because of his shortcomings.
  • Getafix wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    To be honest, with a few tweaks GE was tailor made for Dalts.
    You're about making me cry here... if only... [-O<

    I can see a number of rather lacklustre scenes in that film really crackling with Dalts in the lead.

    You are to Dalton what Gustv Graves is to SF.
    Glad you both have different traits to admire,otherwise I would feel quit overwhelmed! ;)
  • Posts: 1,146
    bondjames wrote: »
    I think it's always difficult to replace a charismatic, much loved Bond who's had a long run. The public just has its expectations set, and any changes are difficult to accept initially.

    It's even that more difficult if the Bond you are replacing has more on-screen charisma than you do (definitely the case with both Sean vs. George & Roger vs Tim) irrespective of their relative acting abilities.

    Only Dan has managed it recently, and that's because he's at least on par with Pierce for charisma and some elements of the Bond public were longing for a change in tone after DAD's excesses - i.e. the timing was right. Perhaps Tim would have been more accepted if he started with FYEO, following MR's excesses, and similarly George if they asked him to replace Sean & make OHMSS (continuity aside) only following Sean's DAF. I think Tim in particular would have been excellent for FYEO, although Rog did a great job on that one.

    As they say, 'timing is everything'.


    Perhaps George would have been accepted if he wasn't such an @$$ on the movie.
  • edited November 2014 Posts: 11,425
    Didn't EON want him back? Or at least he turned down a multi film contract when he had the chance.

    He left of his own accord - idiot.

    I say that as someone who would have liked him to have done one more at least.
  • Posts: 1,146
    Watch the Blu-Ray and DVD documentaries and commentaries. He handled all of that as poorly as someone could. I love that picture and him as Bond, but truth is truth. EON literally preferred to hire John Gavin and present an American Bond before the studio went over their heads and hired Connery for DAF.

    Just as a first, George would not shave his beard for the american press tour, so they left him back in Europe.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Watch the Blu-Ray and DVD documentaries and commentaries. He handled all of that as poorly as someone could. I love that picture and him as Bond, but truth is truth. EON literally preferred to hire John Gavin and present an American Bond before the studio went over their heads and hired Connery for DAF.

    Just as a first, George would not shave his beard for the american press tour, so they left him back in Europe.

    Utterly retarded behaviour without a doubt.
  • Well, maybe not if he was touting himself as a new kind of actor and wanted to get into the Easy Rider scene.

    Lazenby says he was presented with a doorstop of a contract going into all the stuff he could and couldn't do if he signed as Bond... very daunting. I do wonder if that wasn't a bit of kidology by the producers to get him not too sign, as they found him a pain in the a$$. That said, and I know others disagree, I can't see the Bond franchise lasting had Lazenby continued, it needed Moore's humorous transatlantic 1970s style cool imo, so I can see why Lazenby thought he was on a hiding to nothing there, and could have used the film as a launch pad for another kind of career, like Kim Basinger did for starring in NSNA, and a few other Bond girls (though not too many) as well, Jane Seymour for instance.

    But once you get a reputation for being difficult, you are sunk. The whole thing as a nobody on a movie is no matter how crap the film is, you have to make nice to get the chance to do another one. Explains why Simon Pegg was so crap in rubbish like How to Lose Friends, as the star he could have kicked up a fuss and made it better but then he wouldn't have been allowed on the set of these mega blockbuster films he's done since.
  • Well, maybe not if he was touting himself as a new kind of actor and wanted to get into the Easy Rider scene.

    Lazenby says he was presented with a doorstop of a contract going into all the stuff he could and couldn't do if he signed as Bond... very daunting. I do wonder if that wasn't a bit of kidology by the producers to get him not too sign, as they found him a pain in the a$$. That said, and I know others disagree, I can't see the Bond franchise lasting had Lazenby continued, it needed Moore's humorous transatlantic 1970s style cool imo, so I can see why Lazenby thought he was on a hiding to nothing there, and could have used the film as a launch pad for another kind of career, like Kim Basinger did for starring in NSNA, and a few other Bond girls (though not too many) as well, Jane Seymour for instance.

    But once you get a reputation for being difficult, you are sunk. The whole thing as a nobody on a movie is no matter how crap the film is, you have to make nice to get the chance to do another one. Explains why Simon Pegg was so crap in rubbish like How to Lose Friends, as the star he could have kicked up a fuss and made it better but then he wouldn't have been allowed on the set of these mega blockbuster films he's done since.
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