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"Back of the net!": The Football Thread

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  • jobojobo
    Posts: 7,507
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    Fire_and_Ice_Returns wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Mourinho has picked Portugal to get to the final. A bit biased perhaps, but maybe he's onto something.

    They are a good side they defended well when they won the Euro's, they have as good a chance as any.

    They ain’t great. An ageing (and pretty average) team who are shockingly over reliant on an ageing superstar. They just about got away with it in the Euros when they stumbled to third place in the group and then got a spectacularly easy draw.

    If Spain can actually get their shit together and beat them in the first game the pressure will be intolerable. If there’s a winner in the other first game then I fancy them to go.


    Dependent on a star? You mean Pepe?

    Portugal's best game by far in the Euros was the one where they had the luxury of playing without Ronaldo!

    They are basically a side designed for a knockout system. A selection of well organized, hard working team players that also know a bit about dark arts when necesarry... They know how to strangle a match and with some luck they might nick the one or two goals they need in the other end. As in the Euros '16 they shouldn't expect much from Ronaldo in that regard though, as his record in internatinal tournaments since 2006 has been desperately mediocre. Three goals in six matches against Iceland, Austria, Hungary, Kroatia, Poland and Wales was all he managed last time, and that as the goalgetter that has no other job than finishing of attacks...

    However Portugal look stronger going forward this year as they have included Bernardo Silva and a couple of promising youngsters. However, Unless they have the same ammount of luck as two years ago, they shouldn't stand much of a chance against Europes heawy weights.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited June 2018 Posts: 9,117
    jobo wrote: »
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    Fire_and_Ice_Returns wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Mourinho has picked Portugal to get to the final. A bit biased perhaps, but maybe he's onto something.

    They are a good side they defended well when they won the Euro's, they have as good a chance as any.

    They ain’t great. An ageing (and pretty average) team who are shockingly over reliant on an ageing superstar. They just about got away with it in the Euros when they stumbled to third place in the group and then got a spectacularly easy draw.

    If Spain can actually get their shit together and beat them in the first game the pressure will be intolerable. If there’s a winner in the other first game then I fancy them to go.


    Dependent on a star? You mean Pepe?

    Portugal's best game by far in the Euros was the one where they had the luxury of playing without Ronaldo!
    Oh the bitter resentment and refusal to give a Real player even the slightest scintilla of credit is tragic.
    jobo wrote: »
    They are basically a side designed for a knockout system. A selection of well organized, hard working team players that also know a bit about dark arts when necesarry... They know how to strangle a match and with some luck they might nick the one or two goals they need in the other end.
    To be fair you’re right there. But there’s nothing in rules that says they can’t do that.
    jobo wrote: »
    As in the Euros '16 they shouldn't expect much from Ronaldo in that regard though, as his record in internatinal tournaments since 2006 has been desperately mediocre. Three goals in six matches against Iceland, Austria, Hungary, Kroatia, Poland and Wales was all he managed last time, and that as the goalgetter that has no other job than finishing of attacks...
    Yeah he didn’t do a lot, just the goals that saved them in the last group game when they were going out and the breakthrough goal in the SF. Pretty negligible contribution.

    Remind me how many international winners medals Lionel has again? The Jurgen Klopp of international football.
  • jobojobo
    Posts: 7,507
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    Fire_and_Ice_Returns wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Mourinho has picked Portugal to get to the final. A bit biased perhaps, but maybe he's onto something.

    They are a good side they defended well when they won the Euro's, they have as good a chance as any.

    They ain’t great. An ageing (and pretty average) team who are shockingly over reliant on an ageing superstar. They just about got away with it in the Euros when they stumbled to third place in the group and then got a spectacularly easy draw.

    If Spain can actually get their shit together and beat them in the first game the pressure will be intolerable. If there’s a winner in the other first game then I fancy them to go.


    Dependent on a star? You mean Pepe?

    Portugal's best game by far in the Euros was the one where they had the luxury of playing without Ronaldo!
    Oh the bitter resentment and refusal to give a Real player even the slightest scintilla of credit is tragic.
    jobo wrote: »
    They are basically a side designed for a knockout system. A selection of well organized, hard working team players that also know a bit about dark arts when necesarry... They know how to strangle a match and with some luck they might nick the one or two goals they need in the other end.
    To be fair you’re right there. But there’s nothing in rules that says they can’t do that.
    jobo wrote: »
    As in the Euros '16 they shouldn't expect much from Ronaldo in that regard though, as his record in internatinal tournaments since 2006 has been desperately mediocre. Three goals in six matches against Iceland, Austria, Hungary, Kroatia, Poland and Wales was all he managed last time, and that as the goalgetter that has no other job than finishing of attacks...
    Yeah he didn’t do a lot, just the goals that saved them in the last group game when they were going out and the breakthrough goal in the SF. Pretty negligible contribution.

    Remind me how many international winners medals Lionel has again? The Jurgen Klopp of international football.


    Pathetique argument in the end there! So because Eder scored a brilliant solo goal to decide the Euro final with Ronaldo on the bench, it somehow proves that Ronaldo's international career is much better?

    If Ronaldo had done his job in the matches against mighty Iceland and and Austria in the opening games (by that I mean not missing a series of obvious sitters as well as a penalty), Portugal wouldn't have been in desperate need of a result against Hungary in the first place. He more than anyone was responsible for the desperate situation they were in. His superstar achievement in the end was saving them to a third place that by normal sircumstances would have sent them home packing! That game against Hungary was his only good one in the tournament. Against Kroatia and Poland he was hardly visible for 240 minutes. If he really deserved the myth of being the star that "dragged Portugal to the final" he should probably have done something to make sure they didn't need a 118 minute goal from Queresma and a penalty shootout to progress against what should be inferior opposition, or what? The fact that he finally shows up in the semifinal to convert a great cross in a match where he again, apart from the goal, was very anonymous, is not exactly the stuff that makes super hero legends...

    Ronaldo deserves credit where credit is due. He has been the best pure goalgetter at club level in the modern era (Messi in fairness has a higher goal ratio per season, but is not a pure goalgetter and has failed to deliver in the decisive games of the CL the last couple of seasons), and one of the best of all time. However, to give him credit for being the outstanding deciding factor in Portugals Euro Cup win, is simply ludicrous and not at all merited. What won them the title was an incredibly well organized defensive unit, a solid dosis of luck and a moment of solo magic from Eder in the final...
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    jobo wrote: »
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    Fire_and_Ice_Returns wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Mourinho has picked Portugal to get to the final. A bit biased perhaps, but maybe he's onto something.

    They are a good side they defended well when they won the Euro's, they have as good a chance as any.

    They ain’t great. An ageing (and pretty average) team who are shockingly over reliant on an ageing superstar. They just about got away with it in the Euros when they stumbled to third place in the group and then got a spectacularly easy draw.

    If Spain can actually get their shit together and beat them in the first game the pressure will be intolerable. If there’s a winner in the other first game then I fancy them to go.


    Dependent on a star? You mean Pepe?

    Portugal's best game by far in the Euros was the one where they had the luxury of playing without Ronaldo!
    Oh the bitter resentment and refusal to give a Real player even the slightest scintilla of credit is tragic.
    jobo wrote: »
    They are basically a side designed for a knockout system. A selection of well organized, hard working team players that also know a bit about dark arts when necesarry... They know how to strangle a match and with some luck they might nick the one or two goals they need in the other end.
    To be fair you’re right there. But there’s nothing in rules that says they can’t do that.
    jobo wrote: »
    As in the Euros '16 they shouldn't expect much from Ronaldo in that regard though, as his record in internatinal tournaments since 2006 has been desperately mediocre. Three goals in six matches against Iceland, Austria, Hungary, Kroatia, Poland and Wales was all he managed last time, and that as the goalgetter that has no other job than finishing of attacks...
    Yeah he didn’t do a lot, just the goals that saved them in the last group game when they were going out and the breakthrough goal in the SF. Pretty negligible contribution.

    Remind me how many international winners medals Lionel has again? The Jurgen Klopp of international football.


    Pathetique argument in the end there! So because Eder scored a brilliant solo goal to decide the Euro final with Ronaldo on the bench, it somehow proves that Ronaldo's international career is much better?

    If Ronaldo had done his job in the matches against mighty Iceland and and Austria in the opening games (by that I mean not missing a series of obvious sitters as well as a penalty), Portugal wouldn't have been in desperate need of a result against Hungary in the first place. He more than anyone was responsible for the desperate situation they were in. His superstar achievement in the end was saving them to a third place that by normal sircumstances would have sent them home packing! That game against Hungary was his only good one in the tournament. Against Kroatia and Poland he was hardly visible for 240 minutes. If he really deserved the myth of being the star that "dragged Portugal to the final" he should probably have done something to make sure they didn't need a 118 minute goal from Queresma and a penalty shootout to progress against what should be inferior opposition, or what? The fact that he finally shows up in the semifinal to convert a great cross in a match where he again, apart from the goal, was very anonymous, is not exactly the stuff that makes super hero legends...

    Ronaldo deserves credit where credit is due. He has been the best pure goalgetter at club level in the modern era (Messi in fairness has a higher goal ratio per season, but is not a pure goalgetter and has failed to deliver in the decisive games of the CL the last couple of seasons), and one of the best of all time. However, to give him credit for being the outstanding deciding factor in Portugals Euro Cup win, is simply ludicrous and not at all merited. What won them the title was an incredibly well organized defensive unit, a solid dosis of luck and a moment of solo magic from Eder in the final...

    If you can take your Barca blinkers off for just a second...

    I never claimed he ‘dragged Portugal to the final’ merely that he delivered when they were in the shit and going out and then again in the SF so his contribution warrants slightly better than your ‘desperately mediocre’ barb.

    I agree with you that their park the bus and nick a goal tactics were what actually won them the tournament (how did tiki taka do in the Euros by the way?) but Ronaldo did intervene decisively at pretty crucial moments.

    And yes Eder’s goal does mean that Ronaldo has had a better international career than Messi - because that means he has a winners medal!!! Who was the better player Geoff Hurst or Jimmy Greaves? They’re not even close but Hurst is the one who is immortal because he WON.

    The history books will say Ronaldo is a Euro Winner and runner up plus a world Cup SF. Not too shabby given he is from a country that doesn’t have quality like Augero, Higuain, Di María and Mascherano to call on. Nani, Quaresma and Fonte hardly in that league are they?

    Poor old Lionel sadly, unless he pulls it off this time, will never be able to spoken about in the same breath as Maradona for one simple reason.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited June 2018 Posts: 15,722
    https://www.manutd.com/en/news/detail/Premier-League-fixtures-for-2018-19-season-announced

    https://www.arsenal.com/news/we-will-host-man-city-opening-day

    https://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/first-team/304318-liverpool-fc-premier-league-fixtures-2018-19-revealed

    https://www.mancity.com/fixtures/first-team

    https://www.chelseafc.com/en/news/2018/6/14/premier-league-fixture-announcement

    http://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/news/first-team/fixtures/fixtures-2018-19-list-in-full-140618/
  • jobojobo
    edited June 2018 Posts: 7,507
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    Fire_and_Ice_Returns wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Mourinho has picked Portugal to get to the final. A bit biased perhaps, but maybe he's onto something.

    They are a good side they defended well when they won the Euro's, they have as good a chance as any.

    They ain’t great. An ageing (and pretty average) team who are shockingly over reliant on an ageing superstar. They just about got away with it in the Euros when they stumbled to third place in the group and then got a spectacularly easy draw.

    If Spain can actually get their shit together and beat them in the first game the pressure will be intolerable. If there’s a winner in the other first game then I fancy them to go.


    Dependent on a star? You mean Pepe?

    Portugal's best game by far in the Euros was the one where they had the luxury of playing without Ronaldo!
    Oh the bitter resentment and refusal to give a Real player even the slightest scintilla of credit is tragic.
    jobo wrote: »
    They are basically a side designed for a knockout system. A selection of well organized, hard working team players that also know a bit about dark arts when necesarry... They know how to strangle a match and with some luck they might nick the one or two goals they need in the other end.
    To be fair you’re right there. But there’s nothing in rules that says they can’t do that.
    jobo wrote: »
    As in the Euros '16 they shouldn't expect much from Ronaldo in that regard though, as his record in internatinal tournaments since 2006 has been desperately mediocre. Three goals in six matches against Iceland, Austria, Hungary, Kroatia, Poland and Wales was all he managed last time, and that as the goalgetter that has no other job than finishing of attacks...
    Yeah he didn’t do a lot, just the goals that saved them in the last group game when they were going out and the breakthrough goal in the SF. Pretty negligible contribution.

    Remind me how many international winners medals Lionel has again? The Jurgen Klopp of international football.


    Pathetique argument in the end there! So because Eder scored a brilliant solo goal to decide the Euro final with Ronaldo on the bench, it somehow proves that Ronaldo's international career is much better?

    If Ronaldo had done his job in the matches against mighty Iceland and and Austria in the opening games (by that I mean not missing a series of obvious sitters as well as a penalty), Portugal wouldn't have been in desperate need of a result against Hungary in the first place. He more than anyone was responsible for the desperate situation they were in. His superstar achievement in the end was saving them to a third place that by normal sircumstances would have sent them home packing! That game against Hungary was his only good one in the tournament. Against Kroatia and Poland he was hardly visible for 240 minutes. If he really deserved the myth of being the star that "dragged Portugal to the final" he should probably have done something to make sure they didn't need a 118 minute goal from Queresma and a penalty shootout to progress against what should be inferior opposition, or what? The fact that he finally shows up in the semifinal to convert a great cross in a match where he again, apart from the goal, was very anonymous, is not exactly the stuff that makes super hero legends...

    Ronaldo deserves credit where credit is due. He has been the best pure goalgetter at club level in the modern era (Messi in fairness has a higher goal ratio per season, but is not a pure goalgetter and has failed to deliver in the decisive games of the CL the last couple of seasons), and one of the best of all time. However, to give him credit for being the outstanding deciding factor in Portugals Euro Cup win, is simply ludicrous and not at all merited. What won them the title was an incredibly well organized defensive unit, a solid dosis of luck and a moment of solo magic from Eder in the final...

    If you can take your Barca blinkers off for just a second...

    I never claimed he ‘dragged Portugal to the final’ merely that he delivered when they were in the shit and going out and then again in the SF so his contribution warrants slightly better than your ‘desperately mediocre’ barb.

    I agree with you that their park the bus and nick a goal tactics were what actually won them the tournament (how did tiki taka do in the Euros by the way?) but Ronaldo did intervene decisively at pretty crucial moments.

    And yes Eder’s goal does mean that Ronaldo has had a better international career than Messi - because that means he has a winners medal!!! Who was the better player Geoff Hurst or Jimmy Greaves? They’re not even close but Hurst is the one who is immortal because he WON.

    The history books will say Ronaldo is a Euro Winner and runner up plus a world Cup SF. Not too shabby given he is from a country that doesn’t have quality like Augero, Higuain, Di María and Mascherano to call on. Nani, Quaresma and Fonte hardly in that league are they?

    Poor old Lionel sadly, unless he pulls it off this time, will never be able to spoken about in the same breath as Maradona for one simple reason.



    You didn´t say "he dragged them to the final", but you said Portugal are completely dependent on him. Which was the statement I challenged and which they are not as you have just admitted... Thanks for pointing out I am right!

    Your prophecy of how Messis career will be judged is true if everyone has the same old school, tedius and frankly outdated philosophy of judging a players career on world cup success only. For your information, not everyone buys that narrative... There are so incredibly many small details and fortunes that need to come together for a player to win the world cup. Simply being the best individual player om a decent team isn´t enough.

    And it doesn´t matter if Aguero, Higuain, Di Maria are great names on paper if they all collectively fail to deliver. Do you know how many goals Argentina´s selection of strikers (exluding Messi who scored 7 in eleven games) managed to score in qualification this time around? 3 goals. Yes three, divided on Higuain, Dybala, Di Maria, Icardi, Benedetto, Lanzini, Pavon etc... Through out the entire campaign. In the eight qulification games Messi didn´t play, Argentina managed only seven points out of a possible 24. What happened when these "star names" faced Spain not long ago without Messi? They lost 6-1. And how many goals have the similar players delivered in recent world cups? Barely a small handfull at best. There are far greater problems for this Argentina team than simply looking through a list of star names and adding them together as if this was a computer game... Although Maradona´s Argentina maybe had on paper less star names (although that narrative has been wastly exaggerated by the "but Maradona won it on his own" brigade) they certinly did a better job of supporting him and delivering when it mattered.

    If you go looking on the internet you will find many players, managers, experts, journalists who have seen both Maradona and Messi in their prime and who concur Messi is the better of the two. People are making these statements without factoring in world cup succes. It is not obligatory. If Argentina somehow manage to find their feet, pull themselves together and pick a balansed team selection that cover up their defensive problems, key players step up, Messi is in top form and they have the necesarry luck in key moments, Argentina could win this world cup. But does Messis legacy depend on it? No.


    Edit: And "how has Tiki-taka done in the Euros" you say? It won it twice back to back, that's all...
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,361
    Let the games begin, God knows why Robbie Williams is singing in the thankfully short opening ceremony.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    jobo wrote: »
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    Fire_and_Ice_Returns wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Mourinho has picked Portugal to get to the final. A bit biased perhaps, but maybe he's onto something.

    They are a good side they defended well when they won the Euro's, they have as good a chance as any.

    They ain’t great. An ageing (and pretty average) team who are shockingly over reliant on an ageing superstar. They just about got away with it in the Euros when they stumbled to third place in the group and then got a spectacularly easy draw.

    If Spain can actually get their shit together and beat them in the first game the pressure will be intolerable. If there’s a winner in the other first game then I fancy them to go.


    Dependent on a star? You mean Pepe?

    Portugal's best game by far in the Euros was the one where they had the luxury of playing without Ronaldo!
    Oh the bitter resentment and refusal to give a Real player even the slightest scintilla of credit is tragic.
    jobo wrote: »
    They are basically a side designed for a knockout system. A selection of well organized, hard working team players that also know a bit about dark arts when necesarry... They know how to strangle a match and with some luck they might nick the one or two goals they need in the other end.
    To be fair you’re right there. But there’s nothing in rules that says they can’t do that.
    jobo wrote: »
    As in the Euros '16 they shouldn't expect much from Ronaldo in that regard though, as his record in internatinal tournaments since 2006 has been desperately mediocre. Three goals in six matches against Iceland, Austria, Hungary, Kroatia, Poland and Wales was all he managed last time, and that as the goalgetter that has no other job than finishing of attacks...
    Yeah he didn’t do a lot, just the goals that saved them in the last group game when they were going out and the breakthrough goal in the SF. Pretty negligible contribution.

    Remind me how many international winners medals Lionel has again? The Jurgen Klopp of international football.


    Pathetique argument in the end there! So because Eder scored a brilliant solo goal to decide the Euro final with Ronaldo on the bench, it somehow proves that Ronaldo's international career is much better?

    If Ronaldo had done his job in the matches against mighty Iceland and and Austria in the opening games (by that I mean not missing a series of obvious sitters as well as a penalty), Portugal wouldn't have been in desperate need of a result against Hungary in the first place. He more than anyone was responsible for the desperate situation they were in. His superstar achievement in the end was saving them to a third place that by normal sircumstances would have sent them home packing! That game against Hungary was his only good one in the tournament. Against Kroatia and Poland he was hardly visible for 240 minutes. If he really deserved the myth of being the star that "dragged Portugal to the final" he should probably have done something to make sure they didn't need a 118 minute goal from Queresma and a penalty shootout to progress against what should be inferior opposition, or what? The fact that he finally shows up in the semifinal to convert a great cross in a match where he again, apart from the goal, was very anonymous, is not exactly the stuff that makes super hero legends...

    Ronaldo deserves credit where credit is due. He has been the best pure goalgetter at club level in the modern era (Messi in fairness has a higher goal ratio per season, but is not a pure goalgetter and has failed to deliver in the decisive games of the CL the last couple of seasons), and one of the best of all time. However, to give him credit for being the outstanding deciding factor in Portugals Euro Cup win, is simply ludicrous and not at all merited. What won them the title was an incredibly well organized defensive unit, a solid dosis of luck and a moment of solo magic from Eder in the final...

    If you can take your Barca blinkers off for just a second...

    I never claimed he ‘dragged Portugal to the final’ merely that he delivered when they were in the shit and going out and then again in the SF so his contribution warrants slightly better than your ‘desperately mediocre’ barb.

    I agree with you that their park the bus and nick a goal tactics were what actually won them the tournament (how did tiki taka do in the Euros by the way?) but Ronaldo did intervene decisively at pretty crucial moments.

    And yes Eder’s goal does mean that Ronaldo has had a better international career than Messi - because that means he has a winners medal!!! Who was the better player Geoff Hurst or Jimmy Greaves? They’re not even close but Hurst is the one who is immortal because he WON.

    The history books will say Ronaldo is a Euro Winner and runner up plus a world Cup SF. Not too shabby given he is from a country that doesn’t have quality like Augero, Higuain, Di María and Mascherano to call on. Nani, Quaresma and Fonte hardly in that league are they?

    Poor old Lionel sadly, unless he pulls it off this time, will never be able to spoken about in the same breath as Maradona for one simple reason.



    You didn´t say "he dragged them to the final", but you said Portugal are completely dependent on him. Which was the statement I challenged and which they are not as you have just admitted... Thanks for pointing out I am right!

    Your prophecy of how Messis career will be judged is true if everyone has the same old school, tedius and frankly outdated philosophy of judging a players career on world cup success only. For your information, not everyone buys that narrative... There are so incredibly many small details and fortunes that need to come together for a player to win the world cup. Simply being the best individual player om a decent team isn´t enough.

    And it doesn´t matter if Aguero, Higuain, Di Maria are great names on paper if they all collectively fail to deliver. Do you know how many goals Argentina´s selection of strikers (exluding Messi who scored 7 in eleven games) managed to score in qualification this time around? 3 goals. Yes three, divided on Higuain, Dybala, Di Maria, Icardi, Benedetto, Lanzini, Pavon etc... Through out the entire campaign. In the eight qulification games Messi didn´t play, Argentina managed only seven points out of a possible 24. What happened when these "star names" faced Spain not long ago without Messi? They lost 6-1. And how many goals have the similar players delivered in recent world cups? Barely a small handfull at best. There are far greater problems for this Argentina team than simply looking through a list of star names and adding them together as if this was a computer game... Although Maradona´s Argentina maybe had on paper less star names (although that narrative has been wastly exaggerated by the "but Maradona won it on his own" brigade) they certinly did a better job of supporting him and delivering when it mattered.

    If you go looking on the internet you will find many players, managers, experts, journalists who have seen both Maradona and Messi in their prime and who concur Messi is the better of the two. People are making these statements without factoring in world cup succes. It is not obligatory. If Argentina somehow manage to find their feet, pull themselves together and pick a balansed team selection that cover up their defensive problems, key players step up, Messi is in top form and they have the necesarry luck in key moments, Argentina could win this world cup. But does Messis legacy depend on it? No.


    Edit: And "how has Tiki-taka done in the Euros" you say? It won it twice back to back, that's all...

    I’ve seen both Messi and Mardona in their prime. Diego different gravy son.

    As for the resounding success of tiki taka over park the bus by my reckoning it’s 2-2 over the last four Euros ain’t it?

    Anyway 15 mins to go and only Torge and me putting our reputations on the line in the fantasy league.

    You and 001 talk a good game but where are you when it comes to demonstrating your managerial nous?
    Fire_and_Ice_Returns wrote: »
    Let the games begin, God knows why Robbie Williams is singing in the thankfully short opening ceremony.

    Bastard Ryanair has deposited me 90 mins late so now I’m racing from the airport across Dortmund to make kick off. Happy to miss out on Robbie (were Tatu unavailable?) but would have liked to have seen Vlad and Mr Ethical Reform Gianni walk on hand in hand.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    edited June 2018 Posts: 25,361
    @TheWizardOfIce nightmare they are just about to kick off hope you get there quick, Robbie did his usual Karaoke. Putin is making a speech as I type
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited June 2018 Posts: 9,117
    2 stops from the centre! Just hope the Hun have got their shit together with the big screens and beer when I actually get onto the street.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,361
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    2 stops from the centre! Just hope the Hun have got their shit together with the big screens and beer when I actually get onto the street.

    It will be a great atmosphere no doubt, hopefully Russia will win this opener for a few reasons.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,361
    Russia scored been a frantic start from both sides
  • jobojobo
    Posts: 7,507
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    Fire_and_Ice_Returns wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Mourinho has picked Portugal to get to the final. A bit biased perhaps, but maybe he's onto something.

    They are a good side they defended well when they won the Euro's, they have as good a chance as any.

    They ain’t great. An ageing (and pretty average) team who are shockingly over reliant on an ageing superstar. They just about got away with it in the Euros when they stumbled to third place in the group and then got a spectacularly easy draw.

    If Spain can actually get their shit together and beat them in the first game the pressure will be intolerable. If there’s a winner in the other first game then I fancy them to go.


    Dependent on a star? You mean Pepe?

    Portugal's best game by far in the Euros was the one where they had the luxury of playing without Ronaldo!
    Oh the bitter resentment and refusal to give a Real player even the slightest scintilla of credit is tragic.
    jobo wrote: »
    They are basically a side designed for a knockout system. A selection of well organized, hard working team players that also know a bit about dark arts when necesarry... They know how to strangle a match and with some luck they might nick the one or two goals they need in the other end.
    To be fair you’re right there. But there’s nothing in rules that says they can’t do that.
    jobo wrote: »
    As in the Euros '16 they shouldn't expect much from Ronaldo in that regard though, as his record in internatinal tournaments since 2006 has been desperately mediocre. Three goals in six matches against Iceland, Austria, Hungary, Kroatia, Poland and Wales was all he managed last time, and that as the goalgetter that has no other job than finishing of attacks...
    Yeah he didn’t do a lot, just the goals that saved them in the last group game when they were going out and the breakthrough goal in the SF. Pretty negligible contribution.

    Remind me how many international winners medals Lionel has again? The Jurgen Klopp of international football.


    Pathetique argument in the end there! So because Eder scored a brilliant solo goal to decide the Euro final with Ronaldo on the bench, it somehow proves that Ronaldo's international career is much better?

    If Ronaldo had done his job in the matches against mighty Iceland and and Austria in the opening games (by that I mean not missing a series of obvious sitters as well as a penalty), Portugal wouldn't have been in desperate need of a result against Hungary in the first place. He more than anyone was responsible for the desperate situation they were in. His superstar achievement in the end was saving them to a third place that by normal sircumstances would have sent them home packing! That game against Hungary was his only good one in the tournament. Against Kroatia and Poland he was hardly visible for 240 minutes. If he really deserved the myth of being the star that "dragged Portugal to the final" he should probably have done something to make sure they didn't need a 118 minute goal from Queresma and a penalty shootout to progress against what should be inferior opposition, or what? The fact that he finally shows up in the semifinal to convert a great cross in a match where he again, apart from the goal, was very anonymous, is not exactly the stuff that makes super hero legends...

    Ronaldo deserves credit where credit is due. He has been the best pure goalgetter at club level in the modern era (Messi in fairness has a higher goal ratio per season, but is not a pure goalgetter and has failed to deliver in the decisive games of the CL the last couple of seasons), and one of the best of all time. However, to give him credit for being the outstanding deciding factor in Portugals Euro Cup win, is simply ludicrous and not at all merited. What won them the title was an incredibly well organized defensive unit, a solid dosis of luck and a moment of solo magic from Eder in the final...

    If you can take your Barca blinkers off for just a second...

    I never claimed he ‘dragged Portugal to the final’ merely that he delivered when they were in the shit and going out and then again in the SF so his contribution warrants slightly better than your ‘desperately mediocre’ barb.

    I agree with you that their park the bus and nick a goal tactics were what actually won them the tournament (how did tiki taka do in the Euros by the way?) but Ronaldo did intervene decisively at pretty crucial moments.

    And yes Eder’s goal does mean that Ronaldo has had a better international career than Messi - because that means he has a winners medal!!! Who was the better player Geoff Hurst or Jimmy Greaves? They’re not even close but Hurst is the one who is immortal because he WON.

    The history books will say Ronaldo is a Euro Winner and runner up plus a world Cup SF. Not too shabby given he is from a country that doesn’t have quality like Augero, Higuain, Di María and Mascherano to call on. Nani, Quaresma and Fonte hardly in that league are they?

    Poor old Lionel sadly, unless he pulls it off this time, will never be able to spoken about in the same breath as Maradona for one simple reason.



    You didn´t say "he dragged them to the final", but you said Portugal are completely dependent on him. Which was the statement I challenged and which they are not as you have just admitted... Thanks for pointing out I am right!

    Your prophecy of how Messis career will be judged is true if everyone has the same old school, tedius and frankly outdated philosophy of judging a players career on world cup success only. For your information, not everyone buys that narrative... There are so incredibly many small details and fortunes that need to come together for a player to win the world cup. Simply being the best individual player om a decent team isn´t enough.

    And it doesn´t matter if Aguero, Higuain, Di Maria are great names on paper if they all collectively fail to deliver. Do you know how many goals Argentina´s selection of strikers (exluding Messi who scored 7 in eleven games) managed to score in qualification this time around? 3 goals. Yes three, divided on Higuain, Dybala, Di Maria, Icardi, Benedetto, Lanzini, Pavon etc... Through out the entire campaign. In the eight qulification games Messi didn´t play, Argentina managed only seven points out of a possible 24. What happened when these "star names" faced Spain not long ago without Messi? They lost 6-1. And how many goals have the similar players delivered in recent world cups? Barely a small handfull at best. There are far greater problems for this Argentina team than simply looking through a list of star names and adding them together as if this was a computer game... Although Maradona´s Argentina maybe had on paper less star names (although that narrative has been wastly exaggerated by the "but Maradona won it on his own" brigade) they certinly did a better job of supporting him and delivering when it mattered.

    If you go looking on the internet you will find many players, managers, experts, journalists who have seen both Maradona and Messi in their prime and who concur Messi is the better of the two. People are making these statements without factoring in world cup succes. It is not obligatory. If Argentina somehow manage to find their feet, pull themselves together and pick a balansed team selection that cover up their defensive problems, key players step up, Messi is in top form and they have the necesarry luck in key moments, Argentina could win this world cup. But does Messis legacy depend on it? No.


    Edit: And "how has Tiki-taka done in the Euros" you say? It won it twice back to back, that's all...

    I’ve seen both Messi and Mardona in their prime. Diego different gravy son.

    As for the resounding success of tiki taka over park the bus by my reckoning it’s 2-2 over the last four Euros ain’t it?

    Anyway 15 mins to go and only Torge and me putting our reputations on the line in the fantasy league.

    You and 001 talk a good game but where are you when it comes to demonstrating your managerial nous?
    .


    There are tons of people who disagree with you and who's judgement I respect considerably more than yours, I am sorry to say... (trying to come across not too disrespectful).

    As for the Tiki-taka debate you somehow dragged into this, I don't know why you bother. The attempt at implying Tiki-taka has a bad record in Euros sort of backfired to put it mildly... That is not to say it is the only philosophy that can win. We are still waiting for your celebrated, proud 'Kick and run' to get there though...

    As for this Fantasy game, I have long gone explained why I don't find it very interesting to partake in. I just don't see the allure in playing a guessing game of who is in form or not and then spending all games worrying about who is performing or not performing. I'd much rather just lean back and enjoy the games as a normal football fan.

    I hope you have a nice stay in Russia and that you get to see some good games! I am sure this is not our last discussion...
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Fire_and_Ice_Returns wrote: »
    Russia scored been a frantic start from both sides
    Made it for the goal!

    Vlad and the Sheikh as it went in priceless! Presume the Saudis have been paid in tanks and choppers to roll over?
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,361
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    Fire_and_Ice_Returns wrote: »
    Russia scored been a frantic start from both sides
    Made it for the goal!

    Vlad and the Sheikh as it went in priceless! Presume the Saudis have been paid in tanks and choppers to roll over?

    That did cross my mind before kick off, it's entertaining though for the wrong reasons both sides are garbage.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,361
    Ha ha that was shocking defending
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Russia are bog average but these are making them look like Brazil 1970.

    Against Uruguay the Saudis might even outdo their own ineptitude benchmark when they got violated 8-0 by the Krauts in 02 - probably the most inept performance I’ve ever seen on a football field (Karius excepted).
  • TorgeirtrapTorgeirtrap
    edited June 2018 Posts: 17,814
    Uruguay is going to have a great time in this group!

    …and it's 3-0.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited June 2018 Posts: 9,117
    Watching Gianni sat between Vlad and a dodgy Sheikh looking outrageously smug all I can think is that he’s just missing the cat for the full on Blofeld effect.

    Never thought I’d say it but it’s possible he might actually be a bigger c**t than Sepp!
  • TorgeirtrapTorgeirtrap
    Posts: 17,814
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    Watching Gianni sat between Vlad and a dodgy Sheikh looking outrageously smug all I can think is that he’s just missing the cat for the full on Blofeld effect.

    Never thought I’d say it but it’s possible he might actually be a bigger c**t than Sepp!

    Think they said on the TV here that it was the prince of Saudi Arabia or something.

    5-0!
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman to be exact. Effectively the power behind the throne.

    Putin's reaction to that fifth goal was classic.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,361
    Russia showed some quality though Saudi... are one of the worst teams I have ever seen in the World Cup.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    I’m all for little countries getting a fair crack of the whip but it does make a bit of a mockery of the whole thing when you see teams as woeful as that there but the likes of Italy and Holland don’t make the cut.

    Might not be the last we’ve seen of Islamic teams being garbage either:
    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jun/13/fast-friends-world-cup-squads-dealt-with-ramadan
  • SaintMarkSaintMark
    edited June 2018 Posts: 7,653
    The Dutch and Italy currently just do not have the teams to really compete in this tournament. So the Saudi have a rightful place in this world cup.

    Was it not the Saudi team that walked of the pitch at some World cup tournament after some fan blew a whistle on the stand and they stopped playing and the other team scored. And the referee refused to disallow it.

    This team sucked but the Russians will not make it to second round either. Uruguay will have an easy first three matches. I rate Egypt a bit higher than both teams in action today.
  • RogueAgentRogueAgent
    Posts: 12,526
    Well lets hope other games are just as high scoring as the opening game.
  • TorgeirtrapTorgeirtrap
    Posts: 17,814
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    Well lets hope other games are just as high scoring as the opening game.

    Didn't count on a 5-goal game that's for sure! If not as many goals, at least the upcoming group fixtures are more entertaining on paper.
  • TorgeirtrapTorgeirtrap
    Posts: 17,814
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    Anyway 15 mins to go and only Torge and me putting our reputations on the line in the fantasy league.

    Not to late to join, folks! If you put up a team, you'll get points counted from round 2. :-)
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,361
    Torgeirtrap wrote: »
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    Anyway 15 mins to go and only Torge and me putting our reputations on the line in the fantasy league.

    Not to late to join, folks! If you put up a team, you'll get points counted from round 2. :-)

    Just registered and put a team together and joined Back of the Net lol
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Top man. You haven’t lost any ground as only an utter lunatic would have any Russia of Saudi players so we’re both on zero points.
  • jobojobo
    Posts: 7,507
    The president of the Saudi Football federation says several players will be punished after yesterday game. With the reputation of tha regime, I dread to think of what that punishment might be...
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