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Yes, of course its the managers fault when England don't win. Everyone knows the players are amazing, the finest in Europe! (And the universe, naturaly...)
Never said we would win it, and obviously technically we can't match the death by a thousand cuts tedium of Spain's tiki taka, but our players are not so bad that we should not be taking more than the miserable 6 points out of 18 that this mug has accrued in the last 6 tournament games. Extrapolate that over a 38 game season and you're talking 38 points!! Basically relegation form! The guy has no idea what his best team is and less of an idea how to break teams down. But for a jammy result against Wales we'd be sitting on 3 points sweating on whether we might go through. And the FA are talking about extending his contract FFS?
The guy last won a trophy in 2001 and that was the f**king Danish cup! And before that his only other trophies were all won before 1990 and all in the cut and thrust of that well known pinnacle of the game - the Scandinavian leagues. In 40 years of management he's only spent 7 years in the premier league and 2 years in Serie A. The rest of the time in Mickey Mouse leagues or managing Mickey Mouse international teams (Switzerland, UAE, err England).
At best he's a journeyman manager who might just scrape us to the QF. At worst he's an old duffer who's 20 years past his sell by date and should be put out to grass.
Any chance the FA might be bold and appoint someone like Eddie Howe and say 'You're taking us all the way through to Qatar son'? Not while they have uninspiring yes men like Roy to turn to I'm afraid.
After not qualifying in 90 and 94 the French FA took decisive action and look what happened. After finishing bottom of the group in 00 the Germans did the same. You'd like to think the FA might do the same once Roy's misbegotten tenure ends with a whimper in a week or so. But of course we all know they won't.
After all that they'll probably go and win it now!
But, to quote the great Les Dennis: 'If it's up there I'll give you the money myself'!
His appointment surprised me as well, and still does. But its an interesting pattern don't you think? With England, the manager is always the problem. Its been like that for, what is it, thirty, fourty years? Hodgson is one thing, but one would think it was impossible to question the credentials and coaching know how of Fabio Capello. The English could though...
Its refreshing that you have altered the levels of expectation from "winning every tournament" to "beating Wales". But its interesting how the coach is still the problem, always, never the players.
Yeah the players are utter shit mate you're right. England's underachievement nothing to do with the manager. Because Greece's squad in 04 was man for man light years ahead of the likes of Becks, Gerrard, Lampard, Owen, Terry, Scholes, Rooney, Gary Nev and Cashley wasn't it? Can't blame the manager if he's given rubbish like that to fashion a team out of can you? I guess the Greece manager had the advantage of having no players playing in the buisness end of the CL (unlike the names above were doing all through the noughties) so they were fresh when it came to the tournament. The fact he was pragmatic and came up with a rigid tactical plan that best suited the limited players he had at his disposal is an irrelevance isn't it?
Remind me again how the 'coaching know how' of Capello worked out for Russia?
English players aren't great but they're not so far behind Germans, Italians and French as results would suggest. The recent dominant Spanish side are technically ahead of everyone but as Leicester have proven possession not the be all and end all.
The players available to the England manager now are not as good as in recent years but that doesn't change the fact that Roy is continuing a fine tradition, which goes back to when Glen Hoddle left, of getting the players to perform to less than the sum of their parts.
The only managers in my lifetime to get an England team playing to their capabilities are Bobby (but only towards the end), Tel and Hoddle. That's not good enough.
And ever since Leicester, managers are out of excuses for underachieving. If Claudio can win the league with Leicester then there is no reason why England can't reach at least a semi.
As it is Wales look like with a bit of a rub of the green it really could be on. Mind you that said they got battered by England so Christ knows what Spain will do to them.
In the last 50 years, England have reached quarter finals just three times in 12 World Cups, and three times in 12 Euros (including one semi at home). Woeful. Thus cannot solely be fault of the manager.
The reason we can no longer get a top class manager is because they know England is an impossible job. Expectations are far beyond the ability of the players, and they know they will be slaughtered regardless of how they do. Every England manager leaves the job as a broken man (career wise). The best England manager in recent times was Sven, with 3 successive quarter finals - and look how he was treated.
If we were serious about winning tournaments, we would make the young players go to every tournament they can (U19, U21 etc) and gain invaluable tournament experience, instead of going direct to the first team to sit on the bench. But their egos and agents won't allow it - they need to kudos of being a full International for that juicy new contract.
Fact is the England players are over-hyped by the media and the agents, who despair when the public see just how bad they actually are (Sterling) - so desperately look for a fall guy.
Try getting your facts right if you want to be taken seriously as an England fan mate.
World Cup
QF - 1966, 1970, 1986, 1990, 2002, 2006.
1982 got 2nd in the final group phase of 4 groups of 3 so equates to QF.
Euros
QF - 1996, 2004, 2012.
1968 the final tournament was 4 teams so effectively SF.
1980 the final tournament was 8 teams so effectively QF.
1992 the final tournament was 8 teams so effectively QF.
I don't argue that that is a woeful return but not really buying our players are that shit. Yes they are overhyped and think that they are the bolllocks (happy to use Sterling as the textbook example) but the way you're making out they're barely pub players.
In 2004 there's not one Greek player that would have got near our squad. That's not overhype that's a fact, yet they all went home with a medal each. That's a failing both of the players and the manager.
Thank you! Moments ago you claimed only the manager was to blame.
Thank you to you to because moments ago you were claiming the manager wasn't to blame at all.
A good manager who knows what he's doing, gets across his message and gets the players on board can make the difference as in Greece 2004.
A bad or average manager that has no idea what he's doing and cannot inspire his players will be lucky to get you out of the group.
Roy is the latter.
*Edit*
And there we see the genius of our manager gents. Rest your players in the misguided notion that our second string is good enough to roll Slovakia and now we are in the same half of the draw as France, Spain, Germany and Italy.
Meanwhile it's basically Wales v Croatia for a spot in the final. Good luck to them both.
Where and when did I do that? Are you making up stuff, or are you hallucinating?
Your constant mentioning of Greece is a bit daft. Yes, pretty much any team can win in football with a healthy strategy and a necessary dosis of luck. That doesn't mean Roy is a bad coach because he doesn't perform miracles like Otto did that one competition. Its a very weak line of reasoning to be frank.
And the greeks won because they had a manager who knew how to get the best from his players and the right formation.
Englands best chance to win a euro is to play in their back yard or have the same formation as the greeks and leicester and have a bit of luck doesn't go astray.
Also they should practice their penalties 1000% more as they always lose penalty shootouts. :))
England is actually quiet successfull on a low level (QF level), however, they regularly fail to make it to the Semi final despite their good players.
Well Belgium and Portugal are in there too. Not saying they've been brilliant so far but they do have enough talent in their squad to take on either Wales or Croatia.
Croatia were good last night.
Lovely counter-attacking. 'You carry on doing your passing stuff, lads'.
Your previous post:
Capello with all his 'credentials and coaching know how' has been a total failure in two international jobs now not just England. But none of it his fault - all the players being shit I guess.
International and club management are different animals hence forgettable club managers such as Bora Milutinovic and Leo Beenhakker achieve moderate successes at international level where the stellar Capello didn't.
Interestingly Roy would fit this mould. A nomad who is at home in 2nd tier leagues, with a mediocre CV, who can get a team reasonably organised. That's enough to get teams to the tournament but not to make an impact on proceedings. He would be much better suited to managing countries with extremely low expectations who would be just happy to be here.
Greece is absolutely the point. As is Leicester.
A manager who can get his players believing in what he is doing and thinking that they can do it creates his own luck. All teams that win tournaments need a bit of luck (even Brazil 1970 were jammy that Jeff Astle missed an easy chance that may have changed things in the group stage!) so you will always be able to point to the winners at having been lucky on the way at some point. It's a truism that when you're fighting at the bottom luck goes against you and when you're at the top it goes for you. Don't ask me how that works but that's football for you.
Merely taking penalty shootouts as one example. They are allegedly a 'lottery' so one would expect to win 50% of the time and lose the other 50%. Yet Germany have a 73% success rate and England have a 17% success rate.
That's not luck. Spot which country gets to the semis of practically every tournament. Bemoaning luck is the last resort of the loser. And as an England fan I know more about that than most. I've bemoaned Maradona 86 (not so much luck as cheating), Waddle hitting the inside of the post in 90, Anderton and Gazza in Golden Goal ET 96, Sol Campbell's disallowed goal 98, Phil Neville 00, Ronaldinho's ridiculous goal in 02, Rooney limping off 04, Rooney sent off 06, Lampard's goal 10. We're always unlucky aren't we?
I know you're firmly of the contention that our players are about as good as Steptoe's dray horse but Conference players can take a penalty. There's a systematic failing throughout the England setup that, given the players change constantly, has to be levelled at the FA and management structure for consistently delivering teams that are less than the sum of our parts compared to the Milutinovics, Beenhakkers and Rehhagels who manage to gett small countries to overachieve.
The fundamental question is what has Roy ever achieved at a decent level? Let's discount Mickey Mouse leagues in Scandinavia (the only place he has won a trophy lest we forget); he took Inter to a UEFA cup final (and when he lost they sacked him because their expectation as a big club was to win it), took Blackburn (champions a few seasons earlier) down, took Liverpool into the bottom half of the table, did an average stabilising job at West Brom and, to be fair, took little Fulham to a UEFA cup final - probably his greatest triumph (where he lost).
Is this the CV of a bloke you would want managing your country?
I'll leave it to the man himself to sum up with a preposterously delusional quote I spotted whilst perusing his career:
'Hodgson later complained that his failure at Blackburn tarnished his reputation in England, whilst his record on the continent should have made him comparable to Sir Alex Ferguson: "Of course, my track record, if people bothered to study it, would put me in the same category as [Sir Alex] Ferguson enjoys today, but people don't talk about what I've done outside England", he says. "Here, they just talk about Blackburn Rovers, but that's just a very small part of a 26-year career. To most English journalists it's the only part. I've got an excellent track record in Sweden, Switzerland, Italy and in Denmark, where FC Copenhagen was my last job before I went to Udinese. We won the league there by seven points."
Staggering. Absolutely off his nut. The asylums are full of people who think they are Napoleon. Or Fergie.
Yep. Graham Le Saux mincing out of a challenge in 98 gave us a path to the final of Argentina, Holland, Brazil. That was always going to work out well wasn't it?
And now Roy's inept tinkering from day one when it's clear he hasn't had a clue what he is doing (Harry Kane taking corners anyone? A great idea by Roy until everyone saw how shit it was so he binned it in the very next game) has left us in the same half of the draw as France, Italy, Germany and (who'd have thunk it?) Spain.
I'll let you guess for yourselves how the story ends... (Clue not with Roy and Wayne getting a knighthood in 6 months time).
I know they were, it was a joy to watch. Doesn't mean they can't be beaten by another talented side though ;)
Your level of childishness is pretty staggering. Find something better to do on a wednesday afternoon.
I never said that Roy was a terrible coach on the basis that Leicester and Greece won trophies.
I am saying it in the basis of his CV, which I went into in reasonable detail, and which is, by any standards, unless we call picking up trophies in poor leagues success, extremely mediocre (and that's being generous).
The salient point about Greece and Leicester which you seem to be missing in your desperation to absolve Roy of any blame for the state of the England team over the last three dismal tournaments, is that they were very average teams that managed to overachieve.
Roy isn't blessed with a stellar squad, but it is not as bad as those Greece and Leicester squads were in comparison with the other sides in their respective competitions, yet he has proven over several tournaments that all he can get them to do is underacheive. This is hardly surprising because, apart from the Fulham run to the final, he has never shown an ability to do anything else the highest level. I'm not really blaming Roy if I'm honest as he's doing exactly what I expected from him. Conservative averageness. That's fine to keep West Brom up but its never getting you to the business end of tournaments.
I take your point about Capello, in that if he couldn't do it then who could (although his similar failure at improving Russia suggests it might not just be England and perhaps he is not cut out for international management) and I'm not claiming that there are any easy answers.
Sacking Roy just leaves you with a difficult question with no answer but keeping him is worse as you are just left stuck with the wrong answer. At least in the former scenario you have the opportunity to find the right answer somehow.
As to what that right answer might be? Well clearly there are no English managers with a CV any better than Roy's. Big Sam? Pards? Hardly inspiring.
Given the expensive foreign mercenary option has proven to be a mixed bag (Sven did reasonably well but was unable to find that extra 5% needed to break the QF sound barrier, Capello lost the plot) I would be against that.
The last time England have looked anything half decent was under Glenn Hoddle - a young up and coming coach - so I'd be inclined to go for Eddie Howe and give him a contract through till Qatar. Anything has to be better than a guy whose philosophy is still rooted in the early 80s and hasn't won a meaningful trophy in his entire career.
Not back at work until 11th July. I'm going nowhere mate.
However I suspect most England fans will be pleased with that outcome.
Well on paper England is an easier game than Wales because they finished second. And on grass it's probably true as well. We know what Iceland are going to do - park the bus and try and get something on the break. Are we good enough to break them down? Distinctly doubtful.
A bit naive from Iceland if they wanted to get on the other side of the draw. Could've just run it to the corner and secured third but their enthusiasm meant they just wanted to win.
It's Italy I feel genuinely sorry for (never thought I'd write that sentence!) as they have been royally stitched up.
Firstly they're one of the two top teams that get a second placed team and then to compound that they end up getting Spain! How is it decided which first teams get a second team exactly? Was there a draw at the main draw? You notice as usual France get the rub of the green in this regard? Just as they did in 2014 when FIFA (at Michel's instigation no doubt) arbitrarily changed how the groups were seeded from every previous World Cup so they got an easy group and England and Italy got grouped together.
Winner of Portugal and Croatia has to fancy they can go all the way although if Belgium ever get their shit together it's on for them too.
The other side is the draw of death so if I was a betting man I'd obviously go Germany.
Cracking stuff. All the home nations (bar Scotland - which just makes it all the funnier) in the last 16. 25% representation from these islands but our players are shit aren't they?
I guess it's a tad difficult to guage as Italy had no incentive to get a result (another fault with the format. Wouldn't matter if Belgium had won 10-0 Italy knew they couldn't be overtaken due to the head to head. Should be how you did in the group (ie points and GD) that is used to decide things first before head to head comes into play) so things might have been different but who cares about that? Italy had earned the right take it easy but nonetheless Ireland took the game to them for the whole 90 mins and were more than value for the win.
In other heartbreaking news Zlatan exits a tournament for the last time. Not that you'd notice. Biggest flat track bully in history. His stats look good but I'd wager 90% of his goals are against bottom half of the table teams like Guincamp and Toulouse.
All his league titles not really impressing me. Wes Brown and Phil Neville have plenty of those. Just getting a transfer to the biggest team in each country not the mark of a great player, more of a great agent. Classic pinup boy of the FIFA generation - flicks and tricks galore but bugger all substance when you're in the shit and need him to deliver. Have a look at Ronaldo this afternoon to see proper world class mate.
Never done anything in the CL.
Never done anything in the World Cup.
Never done anything in the Euros.
Turn the light off on your way out Zlatters old son.
Well he is going to Man Utd if that is any help.
Another shrewd move by Ed Woodward.