Would Goldeneye have been a success with Dalton?

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  • Posts: 11,425
    Whatever he'd have done it would have been awesome
  • Posts: 15,124
    bondjames wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Dalton with Hopkins and Dench would have been epic.

    Sorry I'm one of the few who never liked GE from day one. Feels like a straight to video thing to me. Don't get it at all.

    Agree totally. It's a Bond movie that hasn't aged well either!
    It was made on a very tight budget, which may explain the ageing thing. Having said that, it had a bit of a dated look from the outset, and some of that was perhaps deliberate with the cold war callbacks. It's true that it's a bit more pulpy than some of the other films, but the charismatic characters seem to generally connect and resonate. It's a case of less is more.

    I think it’s part of GE’s charm.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Getafix wrote: »
    Whatever he'd have done it would have been awesome

    In comparison to Brosnan, no doubt about that.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    A Dalton-led GoldenEye film would have not worked at all.

    Biased Dalton fans may want it and would do anything to discredit Brosnan, but I've read the first draft written with him in mind, and it was a load of mess.

    Even if Dalton was to star in the final draft depiction of the screenplay, that statue park scene would've had him overreacting to Alec's betrayal, thus offering a cringeworthy moment rather than what we've seen with Brosnan responding coldly with "the job we're chosen for."
    Do you think he would have screamed "Aaaleec!!!", then clenched his fists?
    Or something along the lines of "How could you do this?! I bloody trusted you!"
    Haha.

    The Brozzer was great in that scene. Very understated and Bondian.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    My guess is that GE would not have been nearly the hit it was if TD were to star. Large pockets of cinema and Bond fans wanted Brosnan to be Bond for too long, so this was an event.

    However, I'd also guess that I'd be drawn to and very much like a Timothy Dalton GE over PB's GE (a film I have yo-yo'd on, and my last viewing depressed me, lol). I think it could have been quite a strong 007 adventure. We know by this point that Glen wasn't coming back, so there would have been a new director no matter what. Dalton was off the charts in TLD and some of his most subtle and exciting scenes during his tenure were vs Robert Davi's Sanchez.

    I would have liked to see Tim Dalton being betrayed by an old 00-agent-turned-enemy. I think this type of story would have been up his alley.

    (the script as is would have to more tailored to fit him, but the basic premiss seems something TD would knock out of the park).
  • Posts: 11,425
    Perfect premise for TD. We lost a classic
  • Posts: 16,169
    I really liked the Michael France Dalton treatment. Cool PTS, some un-used Fleming characters, and we might have had Anthony Hopkins, which back in '95 would have made for a huge box office draw.
    I have been wondering, though how much truth there was that the new heads of MGM decided they didn't want Tim in the role, and thus he was booted out, but made to look as though he resigned?

    I tended to believe Tim only wanted to do the one film, and Cubby wanted him to commit to more. But now I wonder.
  • edited January 2019 Posts: 11,425
    I think there's an element of truth to both stories. I've read somewhere that Babs holds one of those MGM guys in particularly low esteem because of the way she feels they forced Cubbys hand on Dalton.

    Might also be because Babs and Dalton were rumoured to be an item at one point.

    I do think Cubby would have stuck by Dalton tho if Dalton had been willing to commit to 3 more.
  • edited January 2019 Posts: 628
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    I really liked the Michael France Dalton treatment. Cool PTS, some un-used Fleming characters, and we might have had Anthony Hopkins, which back in '95 would have made for a huge box office draw.
    I have been wondering, though how much truth there was that the new heads of MGM decided they didn't want Tim in the role, and thus he was booted out, but made to look as though he resigned?

    I tended to believe Tim only wanted to do the one film, and Cubby wanted him to commit to more. But now I wonder.

    It's absolutely true that the studio didn't want Dalton. It was confirmed by former MGM/UA executive Jeff Kleeman in the book Some Kind of Hero and in a recent interview in MI6 Confidential.

    The second thing -- Dalton only wanting to do one more film -- is probably also true. I believe Cubby would have changed his mind and allowed Dalton to do the one film had MGM/UA been keen on bringing the actor back.
  • Posts: 628
    Also, I put a link to this podcast episode in the Dalton thread a few weeks ago but will post it here as well. It's a discussion about a story treatment that was written for Dalton in 1993 ("Reunion with Death"), and the hosts/guest also touch on the France draft of GE:

    https://anchor.fm/the-james-bond-complex/episodes/Daltons-Fourth-Reunion-With-Death-e2oeh7
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Escalus5 wrote: »
    Also, I put a link to this podcast episode in the Dalton thread a few weeks ago but will post it here as well. It's a discussion about a story treatment that was written for Dalton in 1993 ("Reunion with Death"), and the hosts/guest also touch on the France draft of GE:

    https://anchor.fm/the-james-bond-complex/episodes/Daltons-Fourth-Reunion-With-Death-e2oeh7

    This is an incredible podcast. Thanks for posting @Escalus5 ... This "fourth" Dalton film has an amazing outline. This would have been awesome.
  • Posts: 11,425
    peter wrote: »
    My guess is that GE would not have been nearly the hit it was if TD were to star. Large pockets of cinema and Bond fans wanted Brosnan to be Bond for too long, so this was an event.

    However, I'd also guess that I'd be drawn to and very much like a Timothy Dalton GE over PB's GE (a film I have yo-yo'd on, and my last viewing depressed me, lol). I think it could have been quite a strong 007 adventure. We know by this point that Glen wasn't coming back, so there would have been a new director no matter what. Dalton was off the charts in TLD and some of his most subtle and exciting scenes during his tenure were vs Robert Davi's Sanchez.

    I would have liked to see Tim Dalton being betrayed by an old 00-agent-turned-enemy. I think this type of story would have been up his alley.

    (the script as is would have to more tailored to fit him, but the basic premiss seems something TD would knock out of the park).

    Always a relief to know there are others out there who don't share the unadulterated admiration for GE that (totally inexplicably to me) seems to be the default on these threads.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    edited January 2019 Posts: 13,978
    A Dalton-led GoldenEye film would have not worked at all.

    Biased Dalton fans may want it and would do anything to discredit Brosnan, but I've read the first draft written with him in mind, and it was a load of mess.

    Even if Dalton was to star in the final draft depiction of the screenplay, that statue park scene would've had him overreacting to Alec's betrayal, thus offering a cringeworthy moment rather than what we've seen with Brosnan responding coldly with "the job we're chosen for."

    That's it right there, first draft. There would have been who knows how many drafts afterwards.

    The thought of T-Dalts going up against Hopkins is too much. Dammit, we missed out on something special.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    I'm not a biased Dalton fan (although I am liking him more and more; he blew the lid off TLD and I enjoyed his performance immensely when he and Davi shared the screen in LTK).

    I did find that PB was over-powered by too many strong actors in GE, and he/Bond felt second-fiddle. If I wanted sexual charisma, I got that from Onatopp/Jansen, masculine ruggedness was delivered by Alec/Bean; all 'round stellar character work in M/Dench, Mishkin/Karyo, Ourumov/Gottfried.

    I found PB at his very best, and effortless in his next outing. He was fun and light and whimsical and excelled-- at least to me.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Ditto. TND was Brozza's best performance. I don't think it's a great film but I left the theatre thinking that the next entry could be really good. Then we got TWINE...
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    I don't think so I can't think of Goldeneye the film or the game for that matter without thinking of Brosnan. He was the Bond that made me love James Bond and discover the brilliant films and the amazing books. No offence to Dalton whatsoever, I just don't think the tone of the film as a whole would have suited his Bond. I think he himself would agree. Just my thoughts
  • Posts: 628
    Although France's script has structural problems, the skeleton of what became GOLDENEYE (the film) was already there in that first draft, particularly in the conflict between Bond and Trevelyan.

    I'm not in love with France's handling of the action -- his pre-credits scene was too ridiculous even for Bond -- but he nailed the dialogue, and he totally understood how to write to Dalton. When one character reminds Bond that Trevelyan has legal immunity, Bond gives a "dark laugh" and replies: "For that bastard?" There are a couple of little moments like that where you can hear Dalton saying the lines. They're perfect for him.

    It's also nice to see General Pushkin again, returning from TLD.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    I don't think so I can't think of Goldeneye the film or the game for that matter without thinking of Brosnan. He was the Bond that made me love James Bond and discover the brilliant films and the amazing books. No offence to Dalton whatsoever, I just don't think the tone of the film as a whole would have suited his Bond. I think he himself would agree. Just my thoughts

    Absolutely correct @Jordo007 ; GE with TD would have to be altered (but I don’t think too much). The idea of having Dalton Bond betrayed by a friend (something which is few and far between in his world), opens up a lot of possibilities. I think in an alternative universe, this GoldenEye would be a darker suspense/thriller film.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Escalus5 wrote: »
    Although France's script has structural problems, the skeleton of what became GOLDENEYE (the film) was already there in that first draft, particularly in the conflict between Bond and Trevelyan.

    I'm not in love with France's handling of the action -- his pre-credits scene was too ridiculous even for Bond -- but he nailed the dialogue, and he totally understood how to write to Dalton. When one character reminds Bond that Trevelyan has legal immunity, Bond gives a "dark laugh" and replies: "For that bastard?" There are a couple of little moments like that where you can hear Dalton saying the lines. They're perfect for him.

    It's also nice to see General Pushkin again, returning from TLD.
    I can definitely visualize that scene. Very Dalton.
  • Posts: 2,918
    peter wrote: »
    I did find that PB was over-powered by too many strong actors in GE, and he/Bond felt second-fiddle. If I wanted sexual charisma, I got that from Onatopp/Jansen, masculine ruggedness was delivered by Alec/Bean

    Perhaps that's why some reviewers said Bean would have been a more convincing Bond than Brosnan (though certainly less suave). I think Brosnan was rather stiff in GE and improved with each subsequent film--in DAD he'd finally relaxed in the role and gave his most assured performance. Poor Dalton never got the opportunity to follow a similar trajectory. Curse the interregnum of the early 90s!
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2019 Posts: 23,883
    I believe that casino scene may have been very early in the filming (I remember reading that somewhere but can't be sure).

    I thought Pierce was good in GE but he seemed cautious - as though he was feeling his way about. The pressure must have been immense given the long gap, the fact that LTK didn't light the box office on fire, and the fact that there were rumours circulating about Bond being irrelevant in a post-Cold War era. Having said that, he nails quite a few scenes in this film and is uber cool. The supporting cast really elevate that film, and I feel similarly about SF.

    I personally think The Tailor of Panama, which gave him an opportunity to play a spy type character without the pressure of Bond, helped him to find his groove. Once he'd done that (brilliantly imho), he then brought the same flippance, slight arrogance and indifference to DAD. He had it in him all along, but it took a while for him to bring it out.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited January 2019 Posts: 9,509
    The pressure must have been immense given the long gap
    ...

    .... I have to disagree. All new 007 actors have sickening pressure. Having a gap would have been an advantage-- especially knowing that the actor before you was "unpopular"...;

    Lazenby had to follow King Connery two years after his retirement (perhaps GL was too naive to realize the weight on his shoulders? He kinda went with the flow (which worked for the film)).

    Connery comes back and;

    Moore hasta continue the legacy two years after the the legacy retired for a second time. Lots of pressure to follow Connery (but LALD is arguably one of his best films);

    After 12 years of hijinks, Timothy Dalton had to re-make the image of James Bond. My Dog, this was a tough assignment; I bet if Dalton had the five or six year lay-off Brosnan had between actors, his interpretation of James Bond would have been more successful.

    He and DC had the worst and toughest transitions; DC at the very bottom considering the vitriol thrown his way thanks to the internet backlash.

    I'm convinced there are some on this site that still dislike DC, one in particular because he's threatened by an alpha male.

    Saying that, there will always be pressure to be James Bond. One must rise to meet a challenge and get on with it.

    Most did.

  • Posts: 9,847
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    Tim could have easily played Bond up through 2002. He looked great in the 90s.


    I would of been fine with that especially if his era was like this

    The living Daylights 1987
    Licence to Kill 1989
    The property of a lady 1991
    Goldeneye 1995 (have Ouramov be the main villain and 006 “killed halfway through the film)
    Risico 1997 (have Carver work for Janus and the paper titled Risico)
    The world is not enough 1999 ( the Goldfinger of the era)
    The Diamond Smugglers 2002 (have it revealed that 006 is Janus and have Bond Kill him)

    A good era in my opinion
  • Posts: 628
    Risico007 wrote: »
    I would of been fine with that especially if his era was like this

    The living Daylights 1987
    Licence to Kill 1989
    The property of a lady 1991
    Goldeneye 1995 (have Ouramov be the main villain and 006 “killed halfway through the film)
    Risico 1997 (have Carver work for Janus and the paper titled Risico)
    The world is not enough 1999 ( the Goldfinger of the era)
    The Diamond Smugglers 2002 (have it revealed that 006 is Janus and have Bond Kill him)

    I would have been fine with him doing four films -- the two that exist plus the Bond 17 Osborne/Davies script and GOLDENEYE. I think four films is perfectly respectable.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2019 Posts: 23,883
    peter wrote: »
    The pressure must have been immense given the long gap
    ...

    .... I have to disagree. All new 007 actors have sickening pressure. Having a gap would have been an advantage-- especially knowing that the actor before you was "unpopular"...;

    Lazenby had to follow King Connery two years after his retirement (perhaps GL was too naive to realize the weight on his shoulders? He kinda went with the flow (which worked for the film)).

    Connery comes back and;

    Moore hasta continue the legacy two years after the the legacy retired for a second time. Lots of pressure to follow Connery (but LALD is arguably one of his best films);

    After 12 years of hijinks, Timothy Dalton had to re-make the image of James Bond. My Dog, this was a tough assignment; I bet if Dalton had the five or six year lay-off Brosnan had between actors, his interpretation of James Bond would have been more successful.

    He and DC had the worst and toughest transitions; DC at the very bottom considering the vitriol thrown his way thanks to the internet backlash.

    I'm convinced there are some on this site that still dislike DC, one in particular because he's threatened by an alpha male.

    Saying that, there will always be pressure to be James Bond. One must rise to meet a challenge and get on with it.

    Most did.
    No doubt all actors have pressure on them when they take on Bond, and I don't believe I said otherwise. That comes with the territory of taking on this role and is inevitable. It's high profile and career defining. The pressure on George in particular must have been truly immense.

    Having said that I personally believe the circumstances in 1995 brought added pressure. As I mentioned earlier, despite great anticipation among some members of the public, there was also a school of thought that Bond was old news and a dinosaur - that newer heroes of the day were needed now that the Cold War was over. That concern extended to the studio which only greenlighted a limited budget for this film. In addition they also had an essentially entirely new crew at the helm for GE (writers, director, producer transition etc.), so there was less continuity. Most importantly however, Brosnan had to deal with the public's expectations of being an anointed Bond in waiting for almost a decade. Review of his film output at the time indicates that his career may have floundered a bit, except for a few hits here and there such as Mrs. Doubtfire.

    I personally think all 6 actors have stepped up and delivered, and I also believe Brosnan did just fine in his first performance as Bond as I noted above with some excellent moments - just a bit cautious in my estimation. I also believe he truly came into his own for his last kick at the can, and I personally wish he had been given a chance to make another one.
  • Posts: 11,425
    bondjames wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    The pressure must have been immense given the long gap
    ...

    .... I have to disagree. All new 007 actors have sickening pressure. Having a gap would have been an advantage-- especially knowing that the actor before you was "unpopular"...;

    Lazenby had to follow King Connery two years after his retirement (perhaps GL was too naive to realize the weight on his shoulders? He kinda went with the flow (which worked for the film)).

    Connery comes back and;

    Moore hasta continue the legacy two years after the the legacy retired for a second time. Lots of pressure to follow Connery (but LALD is arguably one of his best films);

    After 12 years of hijinks, Timothy Dalton had to re-make the image of James Bond. My Dog, this was a tough assignment; I bet if Dalton had the five or six year lay-off Brosnan had between actors, his interpretation of James Bond would have been more successful.

    He and DC had the worst and toughest transitions; DC at the very bottom considering the vitriol thrown his way thanks to the internet backlash.

    I'm convinced there are some on this site that still dislike DC, one in particular because he's threatened by an alpha male.

    Saying that, there will always be pressure to be James Bond. One must rise to meet a challenge and get on with it.

    Most did.
    No doubt all actors have pressure on them when they take on Bond, and I don't believe I said otherwise. That comes with the territory of taking on this role and is inevitable. It's high profile and career defining. The pressure on George in particular must have been truly immense.

    Having said that I personally believe the circumstances in 1995 brought added pressure. As I mentioned earlier, despite great anticipation among some members of the public, there was also a school of thought that Bond was old news and a dinosaur - that newer heroes of the day were needed now that the Cold War was over. That concern extended to the studio which only greenlighted a limited budget for this film. In addition they also had an essentially entirely new crew at the helm for GE (writers, director, producer transition etc.), so there was less continuity. Most importantly however, Brosnan had to deal with the public's expectations of being an anointed Bond in waiting for almost a decade. Review of his film output at the time indicates that his career may have floundered a bit, except for a few hits here and there such as Mrs. Doubtfire.

    I personally think all 6 actors have stepped up and delivered, and I also believe Brosnan did just fine in his first performance as Bond as I noted above with some excellent moments - just a bit cautious in my estimation. I also believe he truly came into his own for his last kick at the can, and I personally wish he had been given a chance to make another one.

    Thank goodness that didn't come to pass!
  • Posts: 7,431
    Getafix wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    The pressure must have been immense given the long gap
    ...

    .... I have to disagree. All new 007 actors have sickening pressure. Having a gap would have been an advantage-- especially knowing that the actor before you was "unpopular"...;

    Lazenby had to follow King Connery two years after his retirement (perhaps GL was too naive to realize the weight on his shoulders? He kinda went with the flow (which worked for the film)).

    Connery comes back and;

    Moore hasta continue the legacy two years after the the legacy retired for a second time. Lots of pressure to follow Connery (but LALD is arguably one of his best films);

    After 12 years of hijinks, Timothy Dalton had to re-make the image of James Bond. My Dog, this was a tough assignment; I bet if Dalton had the five or six year lay-off Brosnan had between actors, his interpretation of James Bond would have been more successful.

    He and DC had the worst and toughest transitions; DC at the very bottom considering the vitriol thrown his way thanks to the internet backlash.

    I'm convinced there are some on this site that still dislike DC, one in particular because he's threatened by an alpha male.

    Saying that, there will always be pressure to be James Bond. One must rise to meet a challenge and get on with it.

    Most did.
    No doubt all actors have pressure on them when they take on Bond, and I don't believe I said otherwise. That comes with the territory of taking on this role and is inevitable. It's high profile and career defining. The pressure on George in particular must have been truly immense.

    Having said that I personally believe the circumstances in 1995 brought added pressure. As I mentioned earlier, despite great anticipation among some members of the public, there was also a school of thought that Bond was old news and a dinosaur - that newer heroes of the day were needed now that the Cold War was over. That concern extended to the studio which only greenlighted a limited budget for this film. In addition they also had an essentially entirely new crew at the helm for GE (writers, director, producer transition etc.), so there was less continuity. Most importantly however, Brosnan had to deal with the public's expectations of being an anointed Bond in waiting for almost a decade. Review of his film output at the time indicates that his career may have floundered a bit, except for a few hits here and there such as Mrs. Doubtfire.

    I personally think all 6 actors have stepped up and delivered, and I also believe Brosnan did just fine in his first performance as Bond as I noted above with some excellent moments - just a bit cautious in my estimation. I also believe he truly came into his own for his last kick at the can, and I personally wish he had been given a chance to make another one.

    Thank goodness that didn't come to pass!

    +1
  • Posts: 11,425
    A film that would have been a lot less successful without Dalton is Toy Story. Saw TS4 last night and Dalton totally owns it.
  • Posts: 678
    I don't think so. I'm glad the Dalton era was over and we got GE with Brosnan.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Controversial.

    Wouldn't you have liked to see Dalton films out in 91 and 93 at least?
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