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Would Goldeneye have been a success with Dalton?

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  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    Was thinking about this today and wondering what a GE with Dalts and directed by the Glenster would have been like. Pretty awesome I reckon. He would have made a much better film than Cambell for sure.
  • jka12002jka12002 Banned
    Posts: 188
    Goldeneye probably wouldnt have been called Goldeneye if Dalton stayed on, the original title was Property of a Lady
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    jka12002 wrote:
    Goldeneye probably wouldnt have been called Goldeneye if Dalton stayed on, the original title was Property of a Lady

    Yes but that bit the dust didn't it?

    I thought GE was a totally different script that was written originally with Dalts in mind?

    Much of the M scene makes a lot more sense with Dalts in the part.
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    Think they should bring Dalts back to one more - that would really annoy Brosnan!
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,823
    Goldeneye would have been better with Dalton IMO, but I believe it also might have been a bit less successful at the box office. The general public want a rollicking good time from a Bond movie, not a character study of a man slowly burning out on his job. Dalton's was a dark Bond, even darker than Craig's in some ways.
  • GetafixGetafix
    edited January 2014 Posts: 11,425
    You say this, but I think the evidence is contradictory. Certainly Dalton draws on darker sides to Bond's character. But that's barely evident in TLD. In LTK, the material is so much darker than the average Bond movie that Dalton had little option but to pick up on this. My understanding is that Dalton only saw the script to LTK a couple of weeks before filming started - i.e. it was EON who were pushing the more 'serious' tone, not Dalton. He is quoted after LTK came out as saying that he wanted the next one to be a bit more lighthearted (something DC seems to have said after each of his three outings so far). I would say that on the balance of the movies DC has done, his films are overall the darkest in the series so far.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited January 2014 Posts: 17,823
    Getafix wrote:
    I would say that on the balance of the movies DC has done, his films are overall the darkest in the series so far.
    No doubt his films are the darkest, but I was focusing on just the actors & their takes on the character in my comments above.
  • GetafixGetafix
    edited January 2014 Posts: 11,425
    chrisisall wrote:
    Getafix wrote:
    I would say that on the balance of the movies DC has done, his films are overall the darkest in the series so far.
    No doubt his films are the darkest, but I was focusing on just the actors & their takes on the character in my comments above.

    Yes, but did he have any choice with LTK? The subject matter and script don't leave him a huge amount of leeway. When the opportunity for humour does arise, he seizes it with both hands. The Q sequences are amongst the most enjoyable in the series. TLD is a much superior film in my opinion and I think it better represents the kind of Bond Dalton wanted to portray. I mean, if they'd made a third, it was inevitably going to be very different from LTK, for all kinds of reasons - commercial ones primarily.

    I'm not a Fleming expert, but Bond's relationship with Kara in TLD is one of the most convincing in the film series. I don't know if Bond has those kinds of connections with the female leads in the books, but it feels like something previously unseen, apart from perhaps in OHMSS. The lightness that their relationship brings to TLD is one of the things that makes it a really enjoyable movie. I think DC and EG came close in CR, but obviously the ending puts a bit of a downer on things compared to TLD.

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,823
    Getafix wrote:
    I'm not a Fleming expert, but Bond's relationship with Kara in TLD is one of the most convincing in the film series.
    That's Bond- enjoying what there is to enjoy. :)>-
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    That's the Daltonator showing how it's done.
  • ChangChang
    edited January 2014 Posts: 107
    Getafix wrote:
    GE would have been better with TD, but still not great. The story and script are still pretty bad and the score is dreadful. Even the Daltinator couldn't have changed that. I'd have liked to see him make two Cubby Bonds in the early 90s. Once Cubby died EON lost it and only began to get things back on track with CR.

    True, he is lucky to miss out on a movie with the "I am invincible" computer idiot.

  • GetafixGetafix
    edited January 2014 Posts: 11,425
    Chang wrote:
    Getafix wrote:
    GE would have been better with TD, but still not great. The story and script are still pretty bad and the score is dreadful. Even the Daltinator couldn't have changed that. I'd have liked to see him make two Cubby Bonds in the early 90s. Once Cubby died EON lost it and only began to get things back on track with CR.

    True, he is lucky to miss out on a movie with the "I am invincible" computer idiot.

    I've changed my mind a bit this week. I don't think Dalton would have tolerated such an awful performance from Cummings, who is by all accounts a decent actor. Cummings - like everyone else - would have raised their game with the Daltonator on set. Frankly (and this is evident in all of Brosnan's outings), the rest of the cast don't really seem to take him very seriously, and what comes across is very limp drama. Rarely any tension and no one is really invested in the moment. I think Dench was an acception - she had that mummsie-ish affection for Brosnan.

    Compare that to when Dalton is on set and everyone is really acting their backsides off - it just comes across as more compelling. I think that's the secret of Bond and any good thriller/fantasy/action movie - selling the story (no matter how silly) with conviction.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,823
    Getafix wrote:
    Cummings - like everyone else - would have raised their game with the Daltonator on set.
    Yes, definitely.
    :)>-
  • delticminerdelticminer
    Posts: 115
    I'll always stand by that with a few rewrites, Goldeneye would have been the best of the series with Dalton. As for commerical success, I can't see it being any less with the same actor as the previous one - Skyfall more or less proved that. The problem with Brosnan is that he was never particularly engaging or interesting, verging on bland at times. Even in it's eventual scripted form, Goldeneye is the kind of film that needs an engaging actor to make a fantastic film rather than just a pretty good one.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Getafix wrote:
    jka12002 wrote:
    Goldeneye probably wouldnt have been called Goldeneye if Dalton stayed on, the original title was Property of a Lady

    Yes but that bit the dust didn't it?

    I thought GE was a totally different script that was written originally with Dalts in mind?

    Much of the M scene makes a lot more sense with Dalts in the part.

    Yes, it would be a bit like SF in that regard, with an older Bond at 50 or so returning after six years, and it might even reference the previous film(s) more directly.
    It would have been a smash hit for sure, maybe less so than with Brosnan. OTOH maybe more. Who knows?
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited January 2014 Posts: 11,189
    [/quote]

    I've changed my mind a bit this week. I don't think Dalton would have tolerated such an awful performance from Cummings, who is by all accounts a decent actor. Cummings - like everyone else - would have raised their game with the Daltonator on set. Frankly (and this is evident in all of Brosnan's outings), the rest of the cast don't really seem to take him very seriously, and what comes across is very limp drama. Rarely any tension and no one is really invested in the moment. I think Dench was an acception - she had that mummsie-ish affection for Brosnan.
    Compare that to when Dalton is on set and everyone is really acting their backsides off - it just comes across as more compelling. I think that's the secret of Bond and any good thriller/fantasy/action movie - selling the story (no matter how silly) with conviction. [/quote]

    Yeah because Caroline Bliss, John Terry, David Hedison and Everitt McGill ("wooahhh") really acted their socks off didn't they? :)) McGill in particular is laughable. You can't take him seriously. Shame as he's meant to be the one who betrayed one of Bond's only friends.

    Don't kid yourself. Dalton is a good actor but he didn't always make people around him look better. He worked with his share of good actors (Robert Davi, Robert Brown, John Rys Davis and Benico Del Toro) but also a few bad ones (the above) who were still bad (perhaps worse) alongside him.
  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    edited January 2014 Posts: 12,837
    Getafix wrote:
    Was thinking about this today and wondering what a GE with Dalts and directed by the Glenster would have been like. Pretty awesome I reckon. He would have made a much better film than Cambell for sure.

    The problem with that is Dalton hated John Glen and said he didn't want him directing a 3rd film. I think Campbell was the best choice for GE, I like Glen, he's probably my favourite Bond director, but we'd already had loads of films from him, it was time for a change, and Campbell did brilliantly (look at the Dam shot before the bungee jump we'd have never got that with Glen).

    I do think GE would've been better with Dalton, I think every Bond film without him would be better with Dalton, but I'm pretty happy with what we got. I like Brosnan's Bond.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited January 2014 Posts: 11,189
    I've always preferred Campbell to Glenn. Glen is perfectly decent but I find his style somewhat bland at times. I can't quite imagine the statue park scene in GE been as atmospheric under Glen.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 41,009
    You know where I stand: I'd never switch out or change GE for any other director, actor, etc.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited January 2014 Posts: 11,189
    One BIG change id make to GE: the Q scene.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 41,009
    BAIN123 wrote:
    One BIG change id make to GE: the Q scene.

    Why's that?
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited January 2014 Posts: 11,189
    You can see Desmond looking off camera. It needs re-editing.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 41,009
    BAIN123 wrote:
    You can see Desmond looking off camera. It needs re-editing.

    I always noticed that, as well. Why does he, his lines? That does irritate me. Granted, no film out there is perfect, and every film (Bond or not) I would change things about, but at the same time, I've loved this film for so many years. It's always been my favorite. I'd probably tweak tiny things here and there, but nothing game-changing.
  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    Posts: 12,837
    Desmond was probably reading cue cards. I read that the whole reason John Cleese was introduced was to talk about all the techno sciencey stuff because Desmond struggled with it.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,357
    Actually Desmond was reading cue cards. It's mentioned somewhere. Give the guy a break. He was in his 80's. It doesn't ruin the scene or enjoyment. And it did give us one of the funniest moments in GE. "Don't touch that!...that's my lunch."
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited January 2014 Posts: 11,189
    I'm not having a go at Desmond. I'm sure it must have been difficult at his age to memorise that dialogue. It's just the scene probably needed to have a few cuts so it didnt look as obvious.

    There are moments of that scene I like such as the line you mentioned and the bit when the bloke in the phone box is being wheeled away.
  • LeChiffreLeChiffre
    edited January 2014 Posts: 1,548
    Dalton would have been good in Goldeneye if Trevelyan had been played by Anthony Hopkins as originally planned. Would have made a better dynamic than playing against Sean " I can't do a posh English accent without my Northern dialect slippin through" Bean.
  • delticminerdelticminer
    edited January 2014 Posts: 115
    LeChiffre wrote:
    Dalton would have been good in Goldeneye if Trevelyan had been played by Anthony Hopkins as originally planned. Would have made a better dynamic than playing against Sean " I can't do a posh English accent without my Northern dialect slippin through" Bean.

    I personally think that if Dalton did Goldeneye, him and Bean would actually be a pretty good pair - both of them brilliant actors, and as Getafix said, the actors (including Bean) would have raised their game for Dalton.
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Yeah because Caroline Bliss, John Terry, David Hedison and Everitt McGill ("wooahhh") really acted their socks off didn't they? McGill in particular is laughable. You can't take him seriously. Shame as he's meant to be the one who betrayed one of Bond's only friends.

    Dalton made the actors who ranged from good to alright go better. You can't make a wooden actor any less wooden, save from teaching them the whole principle of acting, which I do believe takes more than a few months.

    And I didn't think Caroline Bliss was that bad, and David Hedison was wonderful. Terry and McGill were the worst things about the Dalton era, I'll grant you that...
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited January 2014 Posts: 11,189
    Granted Hedison was ok (I don't think his cry of "Della" when Bond finds him in the house is all that convincing though) but I really can't stand Bliss as Moneypenny. I don't think I'll ever budge on that. She may be a nice woman in real life but she's a horrible actress.

    In TLD you get the impression her and Dalton met a few minutes before the cameras started rolling. She does the most obvious line readings possible: looks lovingly at Bond, takes off her glasses and sighs deeply when he goes (Ms Smallbone did the same thing in OP). Her actual delivery of dialogue is poor too.
  • delticminerdelticminer
    Posts: 115
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Granted Hedison was ok (I don't think his cry of "Della" when Bond finds him in the house is all that convincing though) but I really can't stand Bliss as Moneypenny. I don't think I'll ever budge on that. She may be a nice woman in real life but she's a horrible actress.

    In TLD you get the impression her and Dalton met a few minutes before the cameras started rolling. She does the most obvious line readings possible: looks lovingly at Bond, takes off her glasses and sighs deeply when he goes (Ms Smallbone did the same thing in OP). Her actual delivery of dialogue is poor too.

    I think the fact she had a single proper appearance as Moneypenny (I don't count the ten seconds or so in LTK) didn't help. Of course, she's no Lois Maxwell, but I think had she been given a few more films she could have become much, much better.

    Hedison is the second best Felix IMO (Jeffrey Wright is my number one), but my problem with him in LTK is his age - he was getting a bit Moore-esque, especially paired with the much younger Bond. Hedison's performance is maybe the only thing I would say is better in the Moore era than the Dalton era.
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