Would Goldeneye have been a success with Dalton?

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  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    Dalton
    Connery/Brosnan
    Moore
    Craig
    Lazenby
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Current rankings for me:

    Connery (far ahead of the pack)
    Craig/Dalton/Moore (it's close and changes because they're all great)
    Lazenby
    Brosnan (Brozz would be level with Laz for me if he stopped at GE)
  • Posts: 11,425
    bondjames wrote: »
    Current rankings for me:

    Connery (far ahead of the pack)
    Craig/Dalton/Moore (it's close and changes because they're all great)
    Lazenby
    Brosnan

    Fair enough.

    How do you rate OHMSS as a film though?

    I've always loved it, but on a recent rewatching I realised it didn't make sense to rank the film so highly but have Laz in 4th or 5th place. I feel that there's a taboo around saying that Laz was actually really quite good.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Getafix wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Current rankings for me:

    Connery (far ahead of the pack)
    Craig/Dalton/Moore (it's close and changes because they're all great)
    Lazenby
    Brosnan

    Fair enough.

    How do you rate OHMSS as a film though?

    I've always loved it, but on a recent rewatching I realised it didn't make sense to rank the film so highly but have Laz in 4th or 5th place. I feel that there's a taboo around saying that Laz was actually really quite good.

    I watched OHMSS recently and I think the early bit is brilliant. All the way up to Piz Gloria. When he gets to Piz Gloria it just shuts down for me (with the Angels of Death stuff etc). Then it picks up brilliantly again with the ski sequence and Tracey meet at the bottom and then I found the finale back at Piz Gloria sort of boring (even though it ranked so highly on this site in a recent vote).

    I guess I don't rate the movie as highly as some do on this site, which is likely why my ranking of Laz is lower than many. I've always liked him (I actually preferred him to Dalton when I was younger, although that's changed now) but I personally think he's lower than all but the Brozz now. Also, I think Lazenby sort of benefits from being in a deep (for Bond) movie based on a novel, something not all Bonds have had the benefit of.
  • Posts: 11,425
    bondjames wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Current rankings for me:

    Connery (far ahead of the pack)
    Craig/Dalton/Moore (it's close and changes because they're all great)
    Lazenby
    Brosnan

    Fair enough.

    How do you rate OHMSS as a film though?

    I've always loved it, but on a recent rewatching I realised it didn't make sense to rank the film so highly but have Laz in 4th or 5th place. I feel that there's a taboo around saying that Laz was actually really quite good.

    I watched OHMSS recently and I think the early bit is brilliant. All the way up to Piz Gloria. When he gets to Piz Gloria it just shuts down for me (with the Angels of Death stuff etc). Then it picks up brilliantly again with the ski sequence and Tracey meet at the bottom and then I found the finale back at Piz Gloria sort of boring (even though it ranked so highly on this site in a recent vote).

    I guess I don't rate the movie as highly as some do on this site, which is likely why my ranking of Laz is lower than many. I've always liked him (I actually preferred him to Dalton when I was younger, although that's changed now) but I personally think he's lower than all but the Brozz now.

    I agree the scenes at Piz Gloria are a bit limp. It's played too campy IMO. But I guess that was the era. Has a bit of a Blake Edwards vibe. And that girl from Lancashire is pretty dire - makes it feel like a Carry On movie at that point. But I don't think that's Laz's fault - they dubbed him for god's sake...

    I think for the rest of the film, when's allowed to actually use his own voice, he's very good. The whole escape with Tracy is a fantastic sequence - you really feel their relationship being forged amongst all that tension.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Getafix wrote: »
    The whole escape with Tracy is a fantastic sequence - you really feel their relationship being forged amongst all that tension.

    Yes, agreed. that whole bit is really good. One of the best scenes in a Bond movie I think.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    bondjames wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    The whole escape with Tracy is a fantastic sequence - you really feel their relationship being forged amongst all that tension.

    Yes, agreed. that whole bit is really good. One of the best scenes in a Bond movie I think.

    Lazenby did great there; the whole film was on fire at that point.
  • Posts: 11,425
    bondjames wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    The whole escape with Tracy is a fantastic sequence - you really feel their relationship being forged amongst all that tension.

    Yes, agreed. that whole bit is really good. One of the best scenes in a Bond movie I think.

    That's what I mean. One of the best scenes in a Bond movie - surely Laz deserves to be ranked more highly than he often is?
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    This is my best attempt-

    Rog
    Tim
    Sean
    Brozzer
    Dan
    Laz (going off one film, it's hard to rank him any higher. But I really liked Lazenby in OHMSS. I thought he was excellent. OHMSS is my no.1, btw).
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Getafix wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    The whole escape with Tracy is a fantastic sequence - you really feel their relationship being forged amongst all that tension.

    Yes, agreed. that whole bit is really good. One of the best scenes in a Bond movie I think.

    That's what I mean. One of the best scenes in a Bond movie - surely Laz deserves to be ranked more highly than he often is?

    Yes, he played that scene very very well. Very subtle but you could feel the connection between the two of them. Rigg was an accomplished actress, and Laz held his own without appearing hammy/melodramatic. He underplayed it with depth. The only one to do it as well was Craig imo, and he is also an accomplished actor.

    However, Moore, Dalton & Craig have brought so much more to the series over their tenures that I can't in good conscience rank Laz higher than them or the man god that is Connery.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Fair enough. It's why I tend to rank Moore over Dalts - I feel the sheer amount of enjoyment he brought to the screen simply trumps Dalts' two great performances.
  • Posts: 34
    After LTK , TD in GE would have been fantastic , I like PB in it and it IMO his best film as bond , I think of every scene in that film , the DB5 / Ferrari chase , intro to onnatopp in the casino, fight onboard the yaught every single scene I can picture TD doing it better and with a bit more convincing grit than PB did it. Just like GL not doing DAF for me a missed opportunity in the series. so true of so many films , with the initial rejection by some of DC if he had started in DAD and not CR he would of only done 1 film. So for me TD would of made GE a much better film.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Totally agree. GE would have been on a higher level entirely with Dalts. Some of those scenes with M would have been Amazing.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited January 2015 Posts: 17,795
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Dalton was for shit in fight scenes.
    A good choreographer can coax a good fight scene out of anyone who can walk up stairs comfortably two at a time. And also remember that Dalton wasn't portraying 'Action Hero Bond' but the slightly more realistic version of the character. This means that if you attempt what you see on screen in real life you might be seriously harmed or crippled.
    'Action Hero' means that if you attempt what you see on screen in real life you will die.
    There's a difference.
    :))
  • Posts: 11,425
    A shame the best fight in TLD is in the safe house kitchen!
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Action hero or not, those fight scenes were inexcusable.
    The TLD PTS was pretty good. The cargo net fight was well done. Dalton's movies never really made room for a Lee vs. Norris-type one on one.
    I'm not getting where Dalton's fights were 'inexcusable'?
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Isn't this just about the team they had to do the fight choreography during Glen's time? I don't remember one good fight during John Glen's tenure (apart from the aforementioned kitchen fight in TLD).

    The best Moore fights were in the earlier films, but he was also younger so that may explain it. I'm sure Tim could have stepped it up if he had a better choreographer during his two movies.

    Pierce never had a better fight than the one he had in GE for example and that is probably due to the choreography. I found the TND ones pretty bad in comparison (particularly in the news factory). I remember thinking, what happened (after GE that is)? I actually felt the same way about SF vs. CR/QoS (much better). It's the same Craig in all 3 but he looks so much better in the fights in the first 2.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited January 2015 Posts: 17,795
    bondjames wrote: »
    It's the same Craig in all 3 but he looks so much better in the fights in the first 2.
    Yep.
    Dalton stepped up to the plate pretty well in Rocketeer, and that wasn't a film known for its pugilism. Most actors are not trained fighters, but can move well enough if given the right moves to execute. Look at Keanu Reeves in The Matrix.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I never got what was so hot about the fight with Necros, either. How about I upgrade to fairly serviceable.
    In an all-out Action Hero version, hundred mph wind & cold would not interfere with a load of precision moves expertly executed. What made that so cool was that it looked like they both could be swept away by gusts at any moment, yet persisted in the struggle.
    =D>
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Birdleson wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »

    Pierce never had a better fight than the one he had in GE for example and that is probably due to the choreography. I found the TND ones pretty bad in comparison (particularly in the news factory). I remember thinking, what happened (after GE that is)? I actually felt the same way about SF vs. CR/QoS (much better). It's the same Craig in all 3 but he looks so much better in the fights in the first 2.

    I agree about Pierce, most of the rest of his fights don't quite rate (though I prefer them all to Dalton's efforts). The only other one that I also enjoy is his brawl with Carver's security team in TND.

    By the way, we had one of the best fights during Glen's reign, as @Getaflix mentioned above, the kitchen fight in TLD. But aside from that, yes, nothing. When I was compiling a list of best fights for a potential future "Elimination Game", I included nothing from Glen's run (I would have included the exception that I just mentioned, but I decided to go strictly Bond).

    Yes, that kitchen fight is very good for that era. I've always enjoyed that one.

    I'm surprised that Glen and Co. did not give Dalton a direct one on one fisticuff fight of that nature. I can't remember one except maybe the end scene with Sanchez in LTK, but even that wasn't done as well as it could have been. I can understand with Moore because he was already in his 50's when Glen took over, but Dalton was in his prime and surely could have handled the physicality of it. The only thing I can think of is maybe Dalton did not want to do them for some reason. It seems surpising that they had such a well choreographed sequence in TLD without Bond otherwise.

    I'm looking forward to the fight elimination game. I'm betting now that Connery/FRWL will win, & Brozz/GE will probably come 2nd. One of Craig's will likely take 3rd.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Yes, it's a shame that Dalts didn't get a classic fight scene. The one in the kitchen is so good but doesn't even involve Bond. Bit of a shame.

    Still, the cargo plane net stunt sort of makes up for it, even if it isn't actually the Daltonator on screen!
  • Posts: 15,116
    Birdleson wrote: »
    You can BS a fight scene (most of Moore's, almost anything filmed today outside of Bond seems to be quick cuts with no full shots of combat), but with Bond, like with stunts and sets, I want top shelf. Action hero or not, those fight scenes were inexcusable. At least with Moore I can point to the fight in the belly dancer's dressing room as being better than average, even pretty good. I don't think Dalton would have fit the bill. As much as I rag on Brosnan, and despite the few (but major) gripes I have with GE, I don't think Dalton could have given us as solid a film.

    I agree here. And as GE stands, it fits Brosnan far better. Take the antagonism between Trevelyan and Bond for instance: Brosnan's youthful look and his inexperience in the role make it far more believable. Sean Bean looks like he could out-think Bond and have the upper hand in a fight. Have the more mature Dalton, who is naturally more menacing than Brosnan, and Trevelyan is weakened right away.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    bondjames wrote: »
    I'm surprised that Glen and Co. did not give Dalton a direct one on one fisticuff fight of that nature.
    It's been a while since I've read the Fleming novels, and please do correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall any large or significant hand to hand, mano e mano fight scenes in the books. In my memory of them, most were quick. Perhaps Dalton lobbied NOT to have long & dragged out pugilism for his Bond...
    :-??
  • Posts: 11,425
    chrisisall wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I'm surprised that Glen and Co. did not give Dalton a direct one on one fisticuff fight of that nature.
    It's been a while since I've read the Fleming novels, and please do correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall any large or significant hand to hand, mano e mano fight scenes in the books. In my memory of them, most were quick. Perhaps Dalton lobbied NOT to have long & dragged out pugilism for his Bond...
    :-??

    I had actually wondered about this. Hand to hand combat, is I imagine a sign of failure in the world of espionage. You don't go around getting into fights all the time as it draws attention to you. If you need to take someone out you do as cleanly and coldly as possible. Like the Daltonator.
  • Posts: 1,310
    @Getafix wrote:
    Still, the cargo plane net stunt sort of makes up for it, even if it isn't actually the Daltonator on screen!
    In my opinion, one of the best fights in the entire series. As a matter of fact, it still holds up because they (THANKFULLY) decided to forego the rear-projection and do a much more realistic looking faux-background. And Dalton does get to throw a punch or two!
  • ThomasCrown76ThomasCrown76 Augusta, ks
    Posts: 757
    And not a judo chop in sight!
  • Posts: 11,189
    Getafix wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I'm surprised that Glen and Co. did not give Dalton a direct one on one fisticuff fight of that nature.
    It's been a while since I've read the Fleming novels, and please do correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall any large or significant hand to hand, mano e mano fight scenes in the books. In my memory of them, most were quick. Perhaps Dalton lobbied NOT to have long & dragged out pugilism for his Bond...
    :-??

    I had actually wondered about this. Hand to hand combat, is I imagine a sign of failure in the world of espionage. You don't go around getting into fights all the time as it draws attention to you. If you need to take someone out you do as cleanly and coldly as possible. Like the Daltonator.

    So by that logic the train fight in FRWL is a load of rubbish.
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    edited January 2015 Posts: 5,080
    chrisisall wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I'm surprised that Glen and Co. did not give Dalton a direct one on one fisticuff fight of that nature.
    It's been a while since I've read the Fleming novels, and please do correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall any large or significant hand to hand, mano e mano fight scenes in the books. In my memory of them, most were quick. Perhaps Dalton lobbied NOT to have long & dragged out pugilism for his Bond...
    :-??

    Yes, I would agree with this. I don't mind a brawl now and then, but I don't think that they are essential in a Bond film. If done very well, a la FRWL and GE, I have nothing to complain about because they are classic scenes, but, as brutal as the CR stairwell fight was, it does seem a bit crowbarred in (especially in an already saturated release).
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    BAIN123 wrote: »

    So by that logic the train fight in FRWL is a load of rubbish.
    That was a special & unavoidable situation.
  • Posts: 11,425
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I'm surprised that Glen and Co. did not give Dalton a direct one on one fisticuff fight of that nature.
    It's been a while since I've read the Fleming novels, and please do correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall any large or significant hand to hand, mano e mano fight scenes in the books. In my memory of them, most were quick. Perhaps Dalton lobbied NOT to have long & dragged out pugilism for his Bond...
    :-??

    I had actually wondered about this. Hand to hand combat, is I imagine a sign of failure in the world of espionage. You don't go around getting into fights all the time as it draws attention to you. If you need to take someone out you do as cleanly and coldly as possible. Like the Daltonator.

    So by that logic the train fight in FRWL is a load of rubbish.

    Clearly not. An unavoidable, brutal and crucially unseen encounter. A classic scene in the series.
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