Would Goldeneye have been a success with Dalton?

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  • Posts: 11,189
    I think GE was kind of a response to True Lies in some respects.

    Arnie was in a harrier jet, Bond was in a tank.
  • edited February 2015 Posts: 15,218
    Getafix wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    I for one would rather watch either of the Dalton films over any of the Brosnan movies, which for me is all that matters.

    I love them both. I don't really dwell too much on the what ifs. It happened. I enjoy what we've got, rather than crave what we haven't.

    i think the issue here, or rather the point of dispute, is that many people use a lot of "if" to defend a hypothetical success of GE as Dalton. There are reasons why he did not come back to do GE. They may have been unfair, but this is what happened. If they thought Dalton could have done as well, in terms of popularity, then thy would have made sure he stayed for one more Bond. It did not happen. And GE was not a success sorely because of Brosnan, but the fact that there was a new actor for Bond certainly generated interest for the movie.

    Slight distortion of the facts. I think Cubby and Babs were very committed to keeping Dalton but the studio, and perhaps just one individual in particular, were adament that he should be replaced. That sadly is the legacy of Harry's decision to sell his stake to UA rather than Cubby.

    We should not underestimate EON's ability to turn around a seemingly dire situation. They'd done it several times before and there is no reason to assume that they wouldn't have delivered the ship-steadying entry required with Dalton in the lead in 1995. As has been stated countless times before, LTK performed poorly IN THE US, for a wide range of reasons, not purely because of Dalton's supposed poor reception there. And by 1995 the US was becoming increasingly less important in terms of a film's overall financial performance.

    I agree this all hypothetical, but that is what fan sites like this are for, surely?

    I wish I could share in your enjoyment of the Brosnan era, but for me it's an enterainment-free zone - a dead period that registers almost an extension of the post-89 hiatus. Bond didn't return again until 2006 for me.

    I know Cubby and Babs wanted Dalton to stay... and it did not happen in the end. I doubt Dalton himself wanted to stay. In the end, what Cubby wanted was not enough. In any case, I don't think the US market was the only one enthusiastic about Brosnan and not too happy about Dalton.

    And let me be clear here: I am not defending the quality of the Brosnan era, neither am I a fan of Brosnan. Not anymore anyway, not since 2002. When I evaluate GE and the Dalton doing GE hypothesis, I am trying with the best of my ability to do it objectively, based on what we know of the climate of the time. And Brosnan in GE was a contributing factor to the success of the movie.

    And this is regardless of the quality of GE and what you think about it. I find The Phantom far superior to Batman Forever (stupid drivel), but it is the latter that was a big success in 1996. And Independence Day was a terrible movie, a turkey of epic proportions, but it was still a huge success.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited February 2015 Posts: 17,823
    Ludovico wrote: »

    Independence Day was a terrible movie
    Credibility instantly downgraded due to casual & trendy pseudo-intellectual cinematic judgmentalism towards what is nothing more than a big popcorn flick. :))
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,357
    "GoldenEye is the best movie ever."
    ~Wesley Kerns Feburary 27th, 2015 ;)
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,722
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »

    Independence Day was a terrible movie
    Credibility instantly downgraded due to casual & trendy pseudo-intellectual cinematic judgmentalism towards what is nothing more than a big popcorn flick. :))

    Independence Day is one of my favorite movies!
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,823
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »

    Independence Day was a terrible movie
    Credibility instantly downgraded due to casual & trendy pseudo-intellectual cinematic judgmentalism towards what is nothing more than a big popcorn flick. :))

    Independence Day is one of my favorite movies!

    It's grand entertainment.
    Terrible is... American Hot Wax... or similar drek.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,722
    chrisisall wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »

    Independence Day was a terrible movie
    Credibility instantly downgraded due to casual & trendy pseudo-intellectual cinematic judgmentalism towards what is nothing more than a big popcorn flick. :))

    Independence Day is one of my favorite movies!

    It's grand entertainment.
    Terrible is... American Hot Wax... or similar drek.

    Star Trek Generations? ;)
  • Posts: 11,425
    Independence Day entertains.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,823
    chrisisall wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »

    Independence Day was a terrible movie
    Credibility instantly downgraded due to casual & trendy pseudo-intellectual cinematic judgmentalism towards what is nothing more than a big popcorn flick. :))

    Independence Day is one of my favorite movies!

    It's grand entertainment.
    Terrible is... American Hot Wax... or similar drek.

    Star Trek Generations? ;)
    Nah, I was being silly; I just dislike the film is all.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,722
    I must say when you look at it, the 1990's had some pretty badass action films. The only ones post 2000 I put on the same level would be Taken, Rambo 4, MI:4, the Craig Bond films, Bourne Supremacy/Ultimatum, Olympus has Fallen. Not saying those are the only ones, but I prefer the 1990's :D
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Very true @DaltonCraig007. IMHO, that was primarly due to 911 and the impact on the American psyche.

    It took many years before Hollywood action bravado came back in full effect. Even now it's not quite to that pre-911 level. It's less fun. More pensive and moody.

    Only MI4 and Olympus Has Fallen, and maybe Die Hard 4 (I'm not including the abomination that is 5) sort of took us back to that all American kick 'a' heroism.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,722
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    [ And Independence Day was a terrible movie, a turkey of epic proportions, but it was still a huge success.

    I'm in total agreement. Crap from start to finish.

    jeff_goldblum-450x299.jpg
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited February 2015 Posts: 17,823
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    [ And Independence Day was a terrible movie, a turkey of epic proportions, but it was still a huge success.

    I'm in total agreement. Crap from start to finish.
    fun
    fən
    noun
    1.
    enjoyment, amusement, or lighthearted pleasure.
  • edited February 2015 Posts: 11,189
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    [ And Independence Day was a terrible movie, a turkey of epic proportions, but it was still a huge success.

    I'm in total agreement. Crap from start to finish.

    Good ol' Independence Day. A real guilty pleasure for me. Now 2012 on the other hand (*spit*). One of the only films I genuinely felt like walking out of when watching it in the cinema.
  • Posts: 15,218
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »

    Independence Day was a terrible movie
    Credibility instantly downgraded due to casual & trendy pseudo-intellectual cinematic judgmentalism towards what is nothing more than a big popcorn flick. :))

    Even as a popcorn flick, it was incredibly dumb.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,823
    Ludovico wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »

    Independence Day was a terrible movie
    Credibility instantly downgraded due to casual & trendy pseudo-intellectual cinematic judgmentalism towards what is nothing more than a big popcorn flick. :))

    Even as a popcorn flick, it was incredibly dumb.
    You mean like Goldfinger or Skyfall?
    :))
  • Posts: 15,218
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »

    Independence Day was a terrible movie
    Credibility instantly downgraded due to casual & trendy pseudo-intellectual cinematic judgmentalism towards what is nothing more than a big popcorn flick. :))

    Even as a popcorn flick, it was incredibly dumb.
    You mean like Goldfinger or Skyfall?
    :))

    The sarcasm would work better if the context was not clear.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,823
    I thought it was fairly non-opaque.
  • Posts: 533
    That is a question that no one can really answer. I don't know why anyone would even bother to try.
  • Posts: 15,218
    DRush76 wrote: »
    That is a question that no one can really answer. I don't know why anyone would even bother to try.

    I think a lot of people do wishful thinking here. Like a second movie with Lazenby or a fifth Brosnan movie.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Or one less with Moore.
  • Posts: 15,218
    Or one less with Moore.

    That is one that really gives me headaches. FYEO would have been the best first movie for a new Bond actor, but some scenes in OP I cannot think of anyone selling it but Moore and AVTAK would have been a terrible first Bond movie.
  • Posts: 7,653
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Or one less with Moore.

    That is one that really gives me headaches. FYEO would have been the best first movie for a new Bond actor, but some scenes in OP I cannot think of anyone selling it but Moore and AVTAK would have been a terrible first Bond movie.

    And Octopussy is brilliant with Roger Moore, nobody could do it better. And FYEO with another actor would be blasphemy as Sir Moore did nail the role perfectly.

  • Posts: 15,218
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Or one less with Moore.

    That is one that really gives me headaches. FYEO would have been the best first movie for a new Bond actor, but some scenes in OP I cannot think of anyone selling it but Moore and AVTAK would have been a terrible first Bond movie.

    And Octopussy is brilliant with Roger Moore, nobody could do it better. And FYEO with another actor would be blasphemy as Sir Moore did nail the role perfectly.

    Then again AVTAK was one movie too many and FYEO would have been the ideal first Bond movie for a new Bond actor. More than TLD or LALD.
  • Posts: 7,653
    Ludovico wrote: »
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Or one less with Moore.

    That is one that really gives me headaches. FYEO would have been the best first movie for a new Bond actor, but some scenes in OP I cannot think of anyone selling it but Moore and AVTAK would have been a terrible first Bond movie.

    And Octopussy is brilliant with Roger Moore, nobody could do it better. And FYEO with another actor would be blasphemy as Sir Moore did nail the role perfectly.

    Then again AVTAK was one movie too many and FYEO would have been the ideal first Bond movie for a new Bond actor. More than TLD or LALD.

    Well I am glad that we did not get a new actor as Roger Moore did a splendid job and as for AVTAK I still find it a grand movie even if Moore was a tad bit old, for me Patrick MacNee & Roger Moore in one movie should have been explored more with MacNee doing a John Steed.

    AVTAK remains a guilty pleasure for me.

  • Posts: 15,218
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Or one less with Moore.

    That is one that really gives me headaches. FYEO would have been the best first movie for a new Bond actor, but some scenes in OP I cannot think of anyone selling it but Moore and AVTAK would have been a terrible first Bond movie.

    And Octopussy is brilliant with Roger Moore, nobody could do it better. And FYEO with another actor would be blasphemy as Sir Moore did nail the role perfectly.

    Then again AVTAK was one movie too many and FYEO would have been the ideal first Bond movie for a new Bond actor. More than TLD or LALD.

    Well I am glad that we did not get a new actor as Roger Moore did a splendid job and as for AVTAK I still find it a grand movie even if Moore was a tad bit old, for me Patrick MacNee & Roger Moore in one movie should have been explored more with MacNee doing a John Steed.

    AVTAK remains a guilty pleasure for me.

    I do not like AVTAK much, but I agree that Patrick Macnee was great in it and his interaction is Roger Moore too. It arrived too late in Moore's tenure, sadly. But Moore is simply too old. That said, I don't think the movie would have worked at all for a new Bond.

    That is why I find thinking about the right time for Moore to leave so headache inducing.
  • Posts: 7,653
    Following Roger Moore a succesfull performer of the part would always be tough act, and Like Lazenby, Brosnan needed a Dalton in between him and a successful performer.

    It seems that Craig did not need such a buffer, for the time being. I still think that SF will be considered the most overrated 007 movie in a few years.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2015 Posts: 23,883
    I don't think the buffer is necessary really.

    One just has to be superior to the immediate predecessor in the general public's mind.

    -Craig is, in relation to Brosnan.
    -Lazenby was not, in relation to Connery
    -Moore was, in relation to Lazenby
    -Dalton was not, in relation to Moore
    -Brosnan was, in relation to Dalton

    I've never thought highly of AVTAK, but I've not seen it for many years. I'll try to catch a viewing soon and see if my impression changes.
  • Posts: 15,218
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Following Roger Moore a succesfull performer of the part would always be tough act, and Like Lazenby, Brosnan needed a Dalton in between him and a successful performer.

    It seems that Craig did not need such a buffer, for the time being
    . I still think that SF will be considered the most overrated 007 movie in a few years.

    Because Brosnan's star had waned during his tenure. I don't think any other Bond actor had it so easy when they were cast in the role, not even Sir Rog. He never really recreated the momentum of GE.
  • Posts: 7,653
    Ludovico wrote: »
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Following Roger Moore a succesfull performer of the part would always be tough act, and Like Lazenby, Brosnan needed a Dalton in between him and a successful performer.

    It seems that Craig did not need such a buffer, for the time being
    . I still think that SF will be considered the most overrated 007 movie in a few years.

    Because Brosnan's star had waned during his tenure. I don't think any other Bond actor had it so easy when they were cast in the role, not even Sir Rog. He never really recreated the momentum of GE.

    I dare to say that the Craigs' movies have become gradually worse as well, I fear for SP.
    SF looks great but is easily one of the poorest 007 movie imho.

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