Would Goldeneye have been a success with Dalton?

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  • Posts: 7,653
    Getafix wrote: »
    I
    think the Dalton films will stand the test if time much better than the Brosnan movies. In fact I think to all but the most partisan onlooker, it's pretty clear that TLD and LTK are bother superior to any of the Brosnan entries. So I disagree with the last post. A Dalton GE might not have made as much money, but it would have been a much better film.

    As always a personal opinion not based upon any fact, Pierce Brosnans GE gave the franchise the boost it needed after two Daltons & six years of pause.
    I doubt sincerely if Dalton would have welcomed by the general audience like the welcomed Dalton.
    Dalton was just not a very commercial choice and his two movies showed that they clearly had no idea what to do with this version. One thing was made clear that Keatons Batman did better in its opening weekend than Daltons whole run with TLD.

    At the end of the day the franchise is a financial enterprise and Dalton just is not a very hot commercial property, and that was the end of him.
  • edited March 2015 Posts: 11,425
    That's actually got nothing to do with why Dalton didn't do GE. EON wanted him to commit to three and he only wanted to do one.

    Plus my point was not that it would have made more money, just that it would have been a better movie.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    Getafix wrote: »
    That's actually got nothing to do with why Dalton didn't do GE. EON wanted him to commit to three and he only wanted to do one.
    Plus my point was not that it would have made more money, just that it would have been a better movie.
    Agreed. The public (sadly, ME included before I read Fleming) wanted the super-spy, not Dalton's literary take. Dalton's third would not have had quite the box office of Brosnan's first IMO, but it would have been glorious.



  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Personally, neither of there films are among my favorites. They both brought some strengths to the role, but both were also wanting in ways.
    Oh, so what's the Bond movie that's NOT wanting in ways, huh? What, like From Russia With Love??
    Like, that's the most perfect Bond movie ever?? Ho ho ho, that's the EASY choice, RIGHT?
    ;)

    Well... that's mainly because it mostly IS the most perfect Bond film, I conjure.... B-)
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Personally, neither of there films are among my favorites. They both brought some strengths to the role, but both were also wanting in ways.

    That's true. One never got the chance to show his commercial chops (cut down too soon) and the other only showed his commercial chops (and never really showed critical ones) imho.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    bondjames wrote: »
    One never got the chance to show his commercial chops (cut down too soon) and the other only showed his commercial chops (and never really showed critical ones) imho.
    That was extremely well put! Bravo dude!!!
    =D>
  • edited March 2015 Posts: 11,425
    @Chrisisall, that's very true. Few of the films are without any fault. Like you say , FRWL may be as close to perfect as Bond ever got. I have a soft spot for TSWLM as well - I think on it's category, it's close to perfection . But while TLD and LTK have issues I do think they really stand up well.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    Birdleson wrote: »
    @chrisisall , what do you want me to say, that my opinion is yours? I never said that no Bond film is wanting. You tend to read what you want to see. I was referring to the actors, clearly.
    Actors only? Then Connery, Dalton & Craig are CLEARLY tops.
    Getafix wrote: »
    @Chrisisall, that's very true. Few of the films are without any fault. Like you say , FRWL may be as close to perfect as Bond ever got. I have a soft spot for TSWLM as well - I think on it's category, it's close to perfection . But while TLD and LTK have issues I do think they really stand up well.
    TLD & LTK are at the top of my list. Yes, some strange, comedic & weak moments, but Dalton delivers big time.
    FRWL is just the best overall film from a literary POV IMHO.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Moore dreadful? When?
  • Posts: 11,425
    Spy and OP are amongst my favourites. Roger was a legend.
  • Posts: 11,425
    I get where you're coming from. I still love late Rog though, despite this. May be because of it!
  • Posts: 11,425
    OP is brilliant.
  • ThomasCrown76ThomasCrown76 Augusta, ks
    Posts: 757
    Well they were trying like hell to toughen him up, even going so far as to have him shoot stromberg repeatedly at the end, but it just wasn't right
  • Posts: 7,653
    Getafix wrote: »
    That's actually got nothing to do with why Dalton didn't do GE. EON wanted him to commit to three and he only wanted to do one.

    Plus my point was not that it would have made more money, just that it would have been a better movie.

    But EON was not the only boss, so what they wanted is moot after LTK performance at the US BO.

    Daltons third would have been ridicolous from what I gathered from the ideas of his "property of a lady" ideas. It would have made CR '67 look reasonable.

    Daltons GE would never have been a better movie as LTK was already a poor movie as a Miami Vice wannabee.
  • marketto007marketto007 Brazil
    edited March 2015 Posts: 3,277
    edit
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Daltons GE would never have been a better movie as LTK was already a poor movie as a Miami Vice wannabee.
    Eeennh! Sorry Hans, wrong guess. Would you like to go for Double Jeopardy where the scores can really change?
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131

    SaintMark wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »

    Daltons GE would never have been a better movie as LTK was already a poor movie as a Miami Vice wannabee.

    LTK was the best Bond movie of the 80's & 90's. Yes some elements could have been improved (007 was too casual in some scenes). But I see it as a true refelection of Flemings character. Brilliant film that unfortunately was not welcomed by the American (not UK) audience.
  • edited March 2015 Posts: 11,425
    suavejmf wrote: »
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »

    Daltons GE would never have been a better movie as LTK was already a poor movie as a Miami Vice wannabee.

    LTK was the best Bond movie of the 80's & 90's. Yes some elements could have been improved (007 was too casual in some scenes). But I see it as a true refelection of Flemings character. Brilliant film that unfortunately was not welcomed by the American (not UK) audience.

    Yes, it did fine everywhere other than the US. In the UK that was despite a 15 certificate.
  • sunsanvilsunsanvil Somewhere in Canada....somewhere.
    Posts: 260
    "Would Goldeneye have been a success with Dalton?"

    Yup.

    The man was robbed. Its impossible to have these conversations without "blaming" his departure on License To Kill of course, which is in fact one of my lower ranking Bonds, not because of Dalton, but because of a cheese factor no Moore film could ever touch. A semi-tractor whose frame suddenly articulates to get past some flaming wreckage? If it were anything other than a Bond I'd have written the movie off as a farce based on that scene alone (never mind the myriad other).

    Goldeneye was good with Brosnan, but it and all his Bonds were a little too "machine gun" heavy for me if you know what I mean. I do wish Dalton had been given the same serious attention (and budget)...might have been spectacular.
  • edited March 2015 Posts: 11,425
    To be fair to Brosnan, I'm not sure GE had a particularly lavish budget.

    I know where you're coming from with regards to LTK. Although I have always been a big Dalton fan, I also used to have my reservations about LTK, but have come to like it more and more over time. Dalts was indeed 'robbed' of a third. Not by Brosnan (although that's the way I like to tell the story) but by the disastrous 6 year hiatus. He'd have done at least one more if it hadn't been for the legal wranglings.

    Although, as someone has said above, the story outlines of the Dalton's third outing that we've heard of sound a bit dodgy.
  • sunsanvilsunsanvil Somewhere in Canada....somewhere.
    Posts: 260
    Its not my favorite of all the Bonds, but The Living Daylights it pretty high up there, in great part due to Dalton.
  • edited March 2015 Posts: 15,117
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    That's actually got nothing to do with why Dalton didn't do GE. EON wanted him to commit to three and he only wanted to do one.
    Plus my point was not that it would have made more money, just that it would have been a better movie.
    Agreed. The public (sadly, ME included before I read Fleming) wanted the super-spy, not Dalton's literary take. Dalton's third would not have had quite the box office of Brosnan's first IMO, but it would have been glorious.



    In the end, I think this is why they went with Brosnan, some people made the same assessment. And with all its flaws, I am glad we had the GE we ended up with in the end, with Brosnan and all. It did relaunch the franchise.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    In the best of all possible scenarios, I'd keep GE as is, and just give Dalton his third in '91 or '92.
  • Posts: 7,653
    chrisisall wrote: »
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Daltons GE would never have been a better movie as LTK was already a poor movie as a Miami Vice wannabee.
    Eeennh! Sorry Hans, wrong guess. Would you like to go for Double Jeopardy where the scores can really change?

    Sure, serve me a white Russian or I'll pee on your carpet. ;)

    To be really honest the whole drug scene had been done to dead and way better by Miami Vice, the TV show that did change the face of tv series in those days [I recently re-watched the show and was struck about how dark and strong the show really was and how that was hidden by visual aspects of the show].

    EON had different plans with the movie which fell through and they came up with a subpar revenge drugs movie with the main character that was called James Bond but could easily have featured Schwarzenegger, Stallone, Brucie, and the rest of the action tribe and it would not have been a very different movie.
    EON was struggling with Daltons style, his first being much more aimed at the strengths of Brosnan or Moore and number two being a generic actioner.
    And for me that is Daltons legacy: close but no cigar.

    SO hence my position that Kevin did the franchise a favor by stopping them for so many years in legislation and then restarting the franchise afresh with a new but familiar face that guaranteed bums in the seats for 007. It is after all the movie business and not some hobby. EON let Dalton go with his head up but they knew it was the right thing to do.
    To bad they failed to sit down with Brosnan and explain the new plans, but it was Connery all over again. They have a difficulty with learning things especially handling primadonna actors. [which all of them are probably]
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,716
    Although I love Dalton, I have to agree with @SaintMark. There is no way the franchise could have continued without the 6 years hiatus. They had done 1 film every 2 years more than a decade, it was just to much. I don't see how it could have worked if they'd done outings in 1991 and 1993 and then made GE with Brosnan in 1995. There wouldn't be a fresh start within only 2 years of Dalton's last, the producers needed a much needed moment of doubt to think 'Ok, where do we go from here?'. Shame it fell on Dalton but it was necessary for the franchise to continue.

    If anything Dalton could have worked if he'd have gotten the 6 years gap before his first outing so the producers would have had the balls to get rid of all the Moore elements and go in a different direction.
  • edited March 2015 Posts: 11,425
    Completely and utterly disagree with what you guys are saying. Dalton was the new direction they needed. After a six years break they panicked and played it safe, and continued to do so for the next four movies. The Brosnan era was not a creative reboot after time out, it was a creative dead end. What do they do to get things back on track? Cast a proper actor and go back to basics. Deja vu all over again !
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,716
    Yes @Getafix, but you can have 6 or 7 Dalton films, the general audience did not want a serious take on Bond until 9/11 occured. He was the right Bond, at the wrong time.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    So then, can we all agree then that Brosnan was cool???? ;)
  • edited March 2015 Posts: 11,425
    I would dispute the degree to which Dalton was a commercial failure. I'm not sure he was. TLD did perfectly well, as did LTK, apart from in one market - the US, where the studio renamed the movie and totally screwed up the marketing campagin. Read film reviews from the time and American reviewers are full of praise for Dalton and LTK.

    May be they encountered a wobble with LTK in terms of the US box office, but they'd been there before with TMWTGG, and bounced back stronger than ever. Not saying that Dalton's third would have been another TSWLM, but it's not as if LTK lost money. Why assume EON couldn't have turned things around with Dalton?

    But I am happy to acknowledge that when you look at Dalton's two films, Brosnan was commercially more successful. I also think it's fair to say, when you compare LTK with the Brosnan films, that the latter's 4 movies were simply aiming for a more conventional, commercial audience. EON weren't willing to rock the boat or take any risks. LTK takes Bond to places he hadn't been before - they were stretching the envelope a little, as they have done again with Craig. They never attempted that with Brosnan. We all have views on which Bond is better. Personally I think the two Dalton films are a more interesting and personally, entertaining, watch than the Brosnan films, which bore me rigid. TLD and LTK have faults, but give me those films, over timid, poorly written homages to the 1970s and early 80s any day of the week.

    But the main point that I was disagreeing with above is the idea that there was some kind of creative reawakening during the Brosnan era. I dispute that 100%. The Brosnan era was all about a nostalgia ride - riffing off the Roger Moore era and ticking endless boxes. To the extent that for DAD they thought it would be clever to reference every single preceding movie. It was an era of almost total creative failure and lack of ideas. It may have been commercially successful, and perhaps when seen from one step removed you can credit those films with putting Bond on a stable financial path, but from a creative perspective it was a dire time to be a Bond fan. Poor scripts, stories, music. Just bad.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    Getafix wrote: »
    Personally I think the two Dalton films are a more interesting and personally, entertaining, watch than the Brosnan films
    Agreed completely.
    Getafix wrote: »
    The Brosnan era was all about a nostalgia ride - riffing off the Roger Moore era and ticking endless boxes.
    Again, agreed completely, but I loved them anyway.
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