Would Goldeneye have been a success with Dalton?

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  • edited March 2015 Posts: 11,189
    Getafix wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Well, you guys don't need to do any convincing with me.

    As to why he didn't make it in USA, the mid to late 80s saw the rise of self mocking beef cake heroes like Bruce Willis and Harrison Ford. Maybe a skinny, slightly grumpy English hero didn't fit.

    That could be the key word as opposed to "grumpy" or "beefcake". The likes of Ford, Willis, Connery and Moore were experts at this. The cliché that Dalton "took things too seriously" does have an element of truth to it when compared to the other stars of the day. Maybe he just played it a bit too straight perhaps? I think people (then at least) liked that self mocking aspect of action heroes.

    (I too also noticed Dalton's "goofy grin" @NicNac is talking about a couple of times - like in the scene when him and Kara are riding in the back of the horse carriage, you can see him awkwardly "holding" the smile).
  • edited March 2015 Posts: 11,425
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Well, you guys don't need to do any convincing with me.

    As to why he didn't make it in USA, the mid to late 80s saw the rise of self mocking beef cake heroes like Bruce Willis and Harrison Ford. Maybe a skinny, slightly grumpy English hero didn't fit.

    That could be the key word as opposed to "grumpy" or "beefcake". The likes of Ford, Willis, Connery and Moore were experts at this. The cliché that Dalton "took things too seriously" does have an element of truth to it when compared to the other stars of the day. Maybe he just played it a bit too straight perhaps? I think people (then at least) liked that self mocking aspect of action heroes.

    (I too also noticed Dalton's "goofy grin" @NicNac is talking about a couple of times - like in the scene when him and Kara are riding in the back of the horse carriage, you can see him awkwardly "holding" the smile).

    I think he wanted to inject a sense that there was something really at stake. That these were real characters who you should actually care about.

    The Willis and Ford wise-cracking was itself partly inspired by Bond. I think Dalton correctly felt that this ironic/throw away approach had been done to death, firstly by late era Connery, and then by the master himself, Sir Rog. By the mid 80s, everyone was essentially aping Bond.

    What is it that people like about Craig? Essentially, it's that he injects some believeability back into the character. He's acting like he cares. Like something is actually at stake here. I think that's what Dalton was trying to do as well. And his performance was a deliberate, conscious rejection of the lighter cartoonish action heros around at the time.

    He definitely was ahead of his time, and I don't think EON fully knew how to recalibrate. Not until Bourne, did a major spy movie show that this approach could work, and be commercially successful. And not until CR did we get a Bond movie that arguably really matched the approach that Dalton was going for - fully committed to the action, hard edged, top quality acting.

    May be Dalton doesn't pull off some of the romance, but I've actually always felt the Bond-Kara relationship is one of the most genuinely convincing in the series. Not an epic love match like Bond and Tracy or even Bond and Vesper, but one of the better ones.

    Look, I'm not saying TLD and LTK are perfect - far from it. But I think they're very solid entries, and without Dalton, the late 80s to early 2000s would have been a very barren period in the box set.
  • edited March 2015 Posts: 11,189
    I don't think "self mocking" or "wise cracking" necessarily equates "cartoonish".

    One of the arguments I've heard about the first DH and why it's still so popular is because John McClane is NOT the typical action hero. Yes he's in good shape but he's still set up to be a burnt out street-wise cop who happens to end up in a tough situation. At the end of the film he's exhausted and in a mess. In other words an ordinary bloke taking on the improbable. It's more the later films he becomes the cartoony action hero.

    Likewise I remember hearing an interview with George Lucas who said "Indy gets through situations but barely". Doesn't the same kind of Dalton's Bond? A cynical figure who had seen it all before. The main difference is that Willis, Ford and Connery could ease the humour convincingly into their characters.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2015 Posts: 23,883
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I don't think "self mocking" necessarily equates "cartoonish".

    One of the arguments I've heard about the first DH and why it's still so popular is because John McClane is NOT the typical action hero. Yes he's in good shape but he's still set up to be a burnt out detective who happens to end up in a messy situation.Willis is jaded but there is humour to his character. At the end of the film he's exhausted and in a mess. It's more the later films he becomes more the action hero.

    Likewise I remember hearing an interview with George Lucas who said "Indy gets through situations but barely". Doesn't the same kind of Dalton's Bond? A cynical figure who had seen it all before. The main difference is that Willis, Ford and Connery could ease the humour convincingly into their characters.

    Agreed, but we must add Arnie, Mel and of course the legendary Sir Roger Moore (the benchmark post-Connery) to this mix as well. While not weary, there was an effortlessness to the delivery - like an extension of oneself or one's personality in all cases.

    Early Bond was definitely the template though.
  • Posts: 11,425
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I don't think "self mocking" necessarily equates "cartoonish".

    One of the arguments I've heard about the first DH and why it's still so popular is because John McClane is NOT the typical action hero. Yes he's in good shape but he's still set up to be a burnt out detective who happens to end up in a messy situation.Willis is jaded but there is humour to his character. At the end of the film he's exhausted and in a mess. It's more the later films he becomes more the action hero.

    Likewise I remember hearing an interview with George Lucas who said "Indy gets through situations but barely". Doesn't the same kind of Dalton's Bond? A cynical figure who had seen it all before. The main difference is that Willis, Ford and Connery could ease the humour convincingly into their characters.

    Fair points. At the original Die Hard is a cinematic high point.

    I guess saying that yes may be Dalton did want to get away from some of the overly flippant humour - we know he can do it if required, but he wanted his Bond to be Dalton. What I'm trying to get at is that Dalton's Bond feels like he's genuinely invested in the situation. He also comes across as (perhaps) a real person. He might be in crazy situations, but he plays it as if this were a real human character.

    Willis perhaps manages to do that in Die Hard, but he's a different type of character - a working class cop.

    I don't think Dalton was trying to be or wanted to be like those other Hollywood actors.

    At the end of the day you either like him or you don't. I just think the series would be much poorer without those two movies. OP would have been the last decent one in my book, until CR.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited March 2015 Posts: 15,716
    Every time I watch TLD, and I reach the final scenes at Whitaker's place, I feel like I've been following Dalton's Bond for a whole tenure. And then I realise I only watched 1 film, TLD. I don't know how to explain it but I have the sense the film was a lot longer than 2 hours, and I mean it in a good way. It eases the pain of knowing Daltz made only 2 films when his 2 films have the feel of an extended tenure. No offense meant to Sir Rog or Brosnan, whom I both love, the Dalton's Bond evolved and went through so much in 2 films, his short tenure feels just as long as Brozza's and Rog's.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Getafix wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I don't think "self mocking" necessarily equates "cartoonish".

    One of the arguments I've heard about the first DH and why it's still so popular is because John McClane is NOT the typical action hero. Yes he's in good shape but he's still set up to be a burnt out detective who happens to end up in a messy situation.Willis is jaded but there is humour to his character. At the end of the film he's exhausted and in a mess. It's more the later films he becomes more the action hero.

    Likewise I remember hearing an interview with George Lucas who said "Indy gets through situations but barely". Doesn't the same kind of Dalton's Bond? A cynical figure who had seen it all before. The main difference is that Willis, Ford and Connery could ease the humour convincingly into their characters.

    Fair points. At the original Die Hard is a cinematic high point.

    I guess saying that yes may be Dalton did want to get away from some of the overly flippant humour - we know he can do it if required, but he wanted his Bond to be Dalton. What I'm trying to get at is that Dalton's Bond feels like he's genuinely invested in the situation. He also comes across as (perhaps) a real person. He might be in crazy situations, but he plays it as if this were a real human character.

    Willis perhaps manages to do that in Die Hard, but he's a different type of character - a working class cop.

    I don't think Dalton was trying to be or wanted to be like those other Hollywood actors.

    At the end of the day you either like him or you don't. I just think the series would be much poorer without those two movies. OP would have been the last decent one in my book, until CR.

    That's very true, but I think EON has learned after the Dalton experience that humour is required and how best to do it. Craig's approach is the right one for a realistic, personally invested spy imho. The sarcasm and biting wit, best showcased first with the martini scene in CR ("Do I look like I give a damn") and then later when he's tied to the chair being tortured. It's again demonstrated during the psych eval in SF. Realistic but cynical due to what life's thrown at him.
  • edited March 2015 Posts: 11,189
    I do like Dalton but I suppose I can sort of understand why those names I've mentioned have more general appeal.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,716
    From 1962-2002 the series followed a general trend. Yes some of the films are polar opposites, like FRWL and MR and OHMSS and DAD, but all felt like part of the same series. The humour in various degres, the one liners, the campy characters (even OHMSS had some), the gadgets, reccuring characters, etc. Not saying Craig's outings are not real Bond films, because they certainly are 'true' Bond films, but they seem to the first to seriously break free, or atleast play around with these cliches/iconic elements of the previous 20 films. I think Dalton's take on Bond and his films are awesome, but they don't go 'all the way' like the Craig outings. I think Dalton would be a lot more popular in the general audience then and now had they removed some of the 'campy' stuff of the his films and been even more bold.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2015 Posts: 23,883
    That's true @DaltonCraig007. I always felt they sat on the fence too much with Dalton.

    Having said that, they really had no choice imho. Roger Moore cast a very long shadow and it was going to take many years to exorcize his Bond from memory, especially as his humour/wry with was being copied by successful actioners of the day (as noted above).

    Additionally, EON was making these films 2 years apart at the time, so the public's memory of the Bond they knew was very fresh - EON really needed a longer respite before going for a full break in character - which is why to some extent I agree with @Getafix that they may have missed an opportunity to break the trend with GE - while I really liked that movie it was the right time to be more daring than they were perhaps.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,716
    @bondjames In an alternate universe where the 6 years legal problems never existed, I think Dalton could have benefited a lot of he made his first outing in 1989. A 4 years thinking process could have helped EON 'break free' of the elements they didn't remove in the existing Daltong outings in our universe.
  • edited March 2015 Posts: 11,425
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I do like Dalton but I suppose I can sort of understand why those names I've mentioned have more general appeal.

    What's your point though? That there were other more popular actors and films around at the time? No denying that. But would Harrison Ford and Bruce Willis have made better Bonds? Much as I like both of them, the answer is no.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I agree. It was clear they wanted to make the break, and had the actor for the job, but weren't sure how to do it properly. A little bit of time could have helped them figure it out as you say.

    Regardless, I'm glad we never actually saw Tim on that carpet in Tangiers in the finished cut!
  • Posts: 11,425
    bondjames wrote: »
    I agree. It was clear they wanted to make the break, and had the actor for the job, but weren't sure how to do it properly. A little bit of time could have helped them figure it out as you say.

    Regardless, I'm glad we never actually saw Tim on that carpet in Tangiers in the finished cut!

    It's a funny one, because I like the 'Rog' elements in TLD myself. And some of the goofy humour in LTK.

    I feel like LTK and definitely TLD is the end of an era. After that the films don't feel the same. I'm glad they just started to wipe the slate clean for Craig and I agree the humour in CR was very good. I'm a bit concerned that Mendes has begun un-doing some of that and is drifting back towards a sort of Moore era humour, that doesn't work for Craig.
  • Campbell2Campbell2 Epsilon Rho Rho house, Bending State University
    Posts: 299
    I sppose GE was just the necessary thing at the time, the popular actor in the role or back for the first time in the role. Not a fan myself but however you look at it Brosnan was the guy to put Bond back on the map again. At the time his was the Bond the majority wanted, no? Could be Dalton would have fared better in GE than in LTK, But I don't see him as successful as Brosnan in any of the flicks GE - DAD.
  • edited March 2015 Posts: 11,189
    Getafix wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I do like Dalton but I suppose I can sort of understand why those names I've mentioned have more general appeal.

    What's your point though? That there were other more popular actors and films around at the time? No denying that. But would Harrison Ford and Bruce Willis have made better Bonds? Much as I like both of them, the answer is no.

    I agree, I think my point was that Dalton just doesn't have the screen presence of certain other actors.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited March 2015 Posts: 15,716
    Harrison Ford and Bruce Wills may be a hell of a lot better than Dalton at being action superstars, but that was not Dalton's aim to be that. He wanted to reinvent Bond, be very close to Fleming's intent. And no matter how much I love Willis, Arnold, Sly, Statham, and Ford, and no matter how much more charisma they have then Dalton, Daltz is the better actor IMO for the meatier parts. Honestly had Dalton's been a lot more well known as Bond, and his career had took off after leaving the role, I could see him rival the badass epic actors like Neeson and Washington as the mature figures action hero with endless acting chops.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2015 Posts: 23,883
    No doubt about it, Dalton could easily have done Taken and nailed it just as well if not better than Neeson.

    The key though is whether the public would have taken to him.

    I think he should reinvigorate his career by getting a senior Jedi part in the new SW sequels, like how Neeson/Lee did in the prequels.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited March 2015 Posts: 15,716
    He should @bondjames, the problem being Neeson was still in his 40's when he did SW, Dalton is now in his 70's. :( But judging from his tv show Penny Dreadful, he looks very much in shape and he could do a Taken style film. Like Caine did in Harry Brown in 2009 (I love that film).
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Wow, Dalton looks pretty good for someone in his 70's (I did not realize he was that mature).

    Well, there's always Christopher Lee as the benchmark for going strong well into one's senior years.

    Dalton needs something big as a sendoff. The man deserves it.
  • Posts: 11,425
    I see Dalton more in the Patrick Stewart and Ian McKellen mould - knight of the realm type thing.
  • edited March 2015 Posts: 11,189
    Well all three were Shakespeare trained weren't they?
  • edited March 2015 Posts: 11,425
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Well all three were Shakespeare trained weren't they?

    You mean classically trained? And they're all from oop north!

    I actually see Dalton much more in that kind of role than some lame older action star.

    Watching Denzel in the Equalizer was a bit sad really. Brilliant actor, but really? And the whole Liam Neeson thing is a bit weird too if you ask me. He looks increasingly plastic. Does he actually gleen pleasure from making these trash movies? He was once considered a decent actor. Having said that, Taken was mildly entertaining, in a highly derivative, straight to DVD kind of way.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited March 2015 Posts: 15,716
    Dalton should play a big part, or a memorable small part in a big blockbuster. Say a film by Tarantino, Spielberg, Nolan, Vaughn. The latter 2 seem to hire several recurring actors, so if Dalton could enter the 'family' of those 2 directors, he could get his career jump-started again.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Dalton should play a big part, or a memorable small part in a big blockbuster. Say a film by Tarantino, Spielberg, Nolan, Vaughn. The latter 2 seem to hire several recurring actors, so if Dalton could enter the 'family' of those 2 directors, he could get his career jump-started again.

    When is Simon Pegg or Edgar Wright going to cast him again?
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,716
    I forgot Wright. Wright would become an utter legend in my book (and he already is one) if he could cast 2 Bond's in a future film of his. I think it's never been done before to have 2 of the Bond's in the same film.
  • Posts: 11,425
    I forgot Wright. Wright would become an utter legend in my book (and he already is one) if he could cast 2 Bond's in a future film of his. I think it's never been done before to have 2 of the Bond's in the same film.

    CR 67 managed more than 2 ;)
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,716
    True but I meant the official one's. ;)
  • Posts: 11,189
    Funnily enough I could see Lazemby in the older "trashy action movie" sort of mode (at least in the 70s,80s and 90s). Dalton I could see in some sort of drama on the Beeb or ITV.

    I don't know what to make of Liam Neeson to be honest. A decent enough actor but is obviously at a point in his career where he doesn't care much anymore.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited March 2015 Posts: 15,716
    It seems Cruise doesn't care anymore either. He acted in more serious films like Magnolia, Rain Man but since the 2000's started he has preferred to entertain us with epic action films. Can't say I blame either Cruise or Neeson, they are amongst the top action stars to look for in recent years.

    As for Neeson, he did make THAT line in Taken absolutely golden ("I don't know who you are, but I will look for you, etc") so his acting skills are top notch IMO.
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