Would Goldeneye have been a success with Dalton?

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  • Posts: 11,425
    Yes, most action films are rubbish. Only the occassional one rises above dross to achieve greatness - Die Hard, Predator.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,716
    When I was younger I used watch the first three Die Hard's over and over again.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Birdleson wrote: »
    DIE HARD was great. While I sat in the theater watching it I remember thinking, "This is what a Bond film should be. This is the way I used t feel watching a Bond film." Then, "I guess those days are over." Happily, I was wrong.

    You didn't have to wait long, as LTK came out only the following year! ^:)^
  • Posts: 11,189
    ...and Robert Davi was in Die Hard.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,716
    Both Agent Johnson's from DH were in LTK :p
  • Posts: 11,425
    Along came Die Hard and you thought it couldn't get any better, until the Daltonator showed up!

    \m/
  • edited March 2015 Posts: 11,425
    It's a grower - one that improves with age. ;)
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,716
    When I started watching all the Bond films (between DAD and CR), I loved TLD but didn't care for LTK. Once CR was released, I had a new apprecion for LTK which has been growing ever since. LTK would be right outside my top 5 if I made a ranking of all 23 outings.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Die Hard was a benchmark in American action movie making. It set the tone for many years. Truly a masterpiece. In fact, when it came out, it was so impressive that all other actioners had to play catch-up.

    As a Bond fan since the wee years, I truly felt in 1989 that Bond had lost the plot in comparison (as had everyone else - but it was more apparent with Bond because EON had been the standard setter in action movies for so long in the 60's through to the early 80's). In particular, it was Hans Gruber, played by Alan Rickman, who was such a revelation. Great villains had been Bond's domain for so long, and yet in the last Bond movie at that point, we had the pathetic Whitaker, who was a disappointment - so the contrast was quite telling.

    Interestingly, I had a similar reaction to DAD after Bourne Identity in 2002, but for different reasons (not because of lack of action in comparison, but because of lack of realism and tension).

    Having said all that, my appreciation for LTK has, like nearly everone else, improved tremendously as I've matured.

    Somewhat unusually, so has my appreciation for DAD, but mainly because I see it for the dumbed down nonsense it is now and that makes it palatable. Plus I like Brosnan's performance in it.
  • edited March 2015 Posts: 11,425
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    It's a grower - one that improves with age. ;)

    But not great. It's no DIE HARD.

    Well may be not, but you're setting the bar pretty high there. How many films match Die Hard? It's a one-off classic, never surpassed by any of the following films from that franchise.

    I look at LTK from a different angle. Not comparing it to just any other movie, but comparing it to other Bond films. I think it's a brilliant Bond movie and one that really enriches the series. Without it and without Dalton we'd be poorer as Bond fans. I cannot say that about all the other films and actors.
  • Posts: 15,117
    Birdleson wrote: »
    DIE HARD was great. While I sat in the theater watching it I remember thinking, "This is what a Bond film should be. This is the way I used t feel watching a Bond film." Then, "I guess those days are over." Happily, I was wrong.

    The original novel is ten times better. At least.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2015 Posts: 23,883
    From my point of view, having thought more about it over the last few minutes, it had to do with 'cool'. Bond was always cool to me growing up, and for a short while in the late 80's it lost that for me. It lost it at a time when benchmark American movies like Die Hard and Lethal Weapon 2 were being made, and were doing things Bond used to do, but do them better at the time, namely:

    1. witty banter with villains - check (not only Die Hard but LW 2)
    2. villain has class and knows about finer things like suits/tailoring etc. - check
    3. excellent, tense action and set pieces- check
    4. suspenseful plot - check
    5. hero has some great lines and seemed to be having fun - check

    While Die Hard in particular was doing the above (previously the exclusive domain of Bond), EON was dishing up average villains like Whittaker and Koskov, appeared not to care about Bondian witticisms (Davi had the best lines in LTK) and seemed to be going out of its way to make Bond appear disheveled and unkept, as well as seemingly depressed.

    Now that I'm older I can appreciate what they were trying to do at the time with Bond during Dalton's tenure, but the movies must be considered in the context of the times in which they were made, and I personally remember Bond having lost his mojo against some of the American fare that was out there at the time for the reasons noted above.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    DIE HARD was great. While I sat in the theater watching it I remember thinking, "This is what a Bond film should be. This is the way I used t feel watching a Bond film." Then, "I guess those days are over." Happily, I was wrong.

    The original novel is ten times better. At least.

    Never knew it was based on an novel.

    http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/novel-inspired-die-hard-returns-423586
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,716
    The only DH film not based on a previous novel/etc is DH5.
  • Posts: 11,425
    I find it a hard comparison to make. Not like for like.
  • Posts: 15,117
    Getafix wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    DIE HARD was great. While I sat in the theater watching it I remember thinking, "This is what a Bond film should be. This is the way I used t feel watching a Bond film." Then, "I guess those days are over." Happily, I was wrong.

    The original novel is ten times better. At least.

    Never knew it was based on an novel.

    http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/novel-inspired-die-hard-returns-423586

    It is much darker than the movie and the hero is so different. Imagine an aging Clint Eastwood (heck, Eastwood would have been perfect at the time) who had better days and is dealing with old age, recovering from alcoholism, and whathever life threw at him, fighting Eastern European terrorists in their 20s, at the top of their game and highly motivated. And victory is bitter.
    bondjames wrote: »
    From my point of view, having thought more about it over the last few minutes, it had to do with 'cool'. Bond was always cool to me growing up, and for a short while in the late 80's it lost that for me. It lost it at a time when benchmark American movies like Die Hard and Lethal Weapon 2 were being made, and were doing things Bond used to do, but do them better at the time, namely:

    1. witty banter with villains - check (not only Die Hard but LW 2)
    2. villain has class and knows about finer things like suits/tailoring etc. - check
    3. excellent, tense action and set pieces- check
    4. suspenseful plot - check
    5. hero has some great lines and seemed to be having fun - check

    While Die Hard in particular was doing the above (previously the exclusive domain of Bond), EON was dishing up average villains like Whittaker and Koskov, appeared not to care about Bondian witticisms (Davi had the best lines in LTK) and seemed to be going out of its way to make Bond appear disheveled and unkept, as well as seemingly depressed.

    Now that I'm older I can appreciate what they were trying to do at the time with Bond during Dalton's tenure, but the movies must be considered in the context of the times in which they were made, and I personally remember Bond having lost his mojo against some of the American fare that was out there at the time for the reasons noted above.

    There was a huge difference between the DH lot and James Bond: the heroes of action movies of the 80s were working class, fighting upper class villains.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    DIE HARD was great. While I sat in the theater watching it I remember thinking, "This is what a Bond film should be. This is the way I used t feel watching a Bond film." Then, "I guess those days are over." Happily, I was wrong.

    The original novel is ten times better. At least.

    Never knew it was based on an novel.

    http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/novel-inspired-die-hard-returns-423586

    It is much darker than the movie and the hero is so different. Imagine an aging Clint Eastwood (heck, Eastwood would have been perfect at the time) who had better days and is dealing with old age, recovering from alcoholism, and whathever life threw at him, fighting Eastern European terrorists in their 20s, at the top of their game and highly motivated. And victory is bitter.
    bondjames wrote: »
    From my point of view, having thought more about it over the last few minutes, it had to do with 'cool'. Bond was always cool to me growing up, and for a short while in the late 80's it lost that for me. It lost it at a time when benchmark American movies like Die Hard and Lethal Weapon 2 were being made, and were doing things Bond used to do, but do them better at the time, namely:

    1. witty banter with villains - check (not only Die Hard but LW 2)
    2. villain has class and knows about finer things like suits/tailoring etc. - check
    3. excellent, tense action and set pieces- check
    4. suspenseful plot - check
    5. hero has some great lines and seemed to be having fun - check

    While Die Hard in particular was doing the above (previously the exclusive domain of Bond), EON was dishing up average villains like Whittaker and Koskov, appeared not to care about Bondian witticisms (Davi had the best lines in LTK) and seemed to be going out of its way to make Bond appear disheveled and unkept, as well as seemingly depressed.

    Now that I'm older I can appreciate what they were trying to do at the time with Bond during Dalton's tenure, but the movies must be considered in the context of the times in which they were made, and I personally remember Bond having lost his mojo against some of the American fare that was out there at the time for the reasons noted above.

    There was a huge difference between the DH lot and James Bond: the heroes of action movies of the 80s were working class, fighting upper class villains.

    Absolutely. It is the upper class nature of the villains that gave the movies their style/class, and they capitalized on that element.

    Class/style was an almost exclusive domain of the James Bond films in the preceding years. During Dalton's time, that element of class/style appeared to be consciously removed, particularly with respect to the 5 points I noted above. I personally did not like that they appeared to downplay those above points, and I think a lot of moviegoers probably felt the same, which may be why relative box office returns were not so good as in the past.

    All the above 5 points came back in full force in GE, and that could be why that movie did so well at the Box office.

    I'm not referring to critical success, but rather relative box office success and the necessary element of 'cool'. Die Hard was gritty, but it was also very cool. So was CR, despite also having gritty aspects (the torture scene). I think EON has learnt from the Dalton era that one must inject that necessary element for general audience appeal. Even QoS had the cool factor despite the relatively dark approach.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I would put at least 11Bond films above DIE HARD.
    Hmmm, let me do my math here... DN + FRWL + YOLT + TLD + LTK + GE + TND + QOS...
    That's 8 at least I'd put above Die Hard.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited March 2015 Posts: 17,798
    Birdleson wrote: »
    GF, FRWL, OHMSS, CR, TSWLM, DN, LALD, TB, SF, YOLT. Others are possible, but that group for sure.
    TSWLM? Hey, I like that movie a whole lot, but no way is it better than Die Hard...
    :-??
    Christopher Wood's novel is an entirely other story. :)>-
  • ThomasCrown76ThomasCrown76 Augusta, ks
    Posts: 757
    Come out to the the coast, well get together, have a few laughs
  • ThomasCrown76ThomasCrown76 Augusta, ks
    Posts: 757
    Went out to an oscar party in 2013. Wanted to visit fox plaza
  • Posts: 11,425
    Birdleson wrote: »
    It is far better than DIE HARD.

    I think it's a pointless comparison. TSWLM is one of my favourite Bonds, but the Die Hard is also an excellent movie.
  • Campbell2Campbell2 Epsilon Rho Rho house, Bending State University
    Posts: 299
    DH2 was my first DH film, blew me away. I thought that was not so much blue collar good guy against white collar villains but ageing old school cop against high tech mercenary types what withn their Glocks and encrypted communication, hacking the airport and so on. While Willis in the end got at them with his old Zippo, that was my take on it
  • Posts: 15,117
    Funny that DH was a success after they seriously lighten up and modified the original novel, while Bond felt out of time for many by trying to get back to the source material.
  • Campbell2Campbell2 Epsilon Rho Rho house, Bending State University
    Posts: 299
    Yeah. Wasn't Leathal Weapon also on the funny side at times? Haven't seen them mind. And True Lies also had the odd tongue in cheek moment, just as the entire Maverick. Bond went againstthecurrent there.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Funny that DH was a success after they seriously lighten up and modified the original novel, while Bond felt out of time for many by trying to get back to the source material.

    This does not surprise me. They are two different mediums. One does not necessarily translate well without modifications to the other.

    Die Hard got it right by injecting the witticisms, excellent dialogue, humour and fine style (villain).

    EON got it wrong by dialling all those essential elements back consciously for LTK.

    That's why I was referring to in my earlier posts - EON has a better idea of what the public sees as essential for Bond now, and are balancing it better in the Craig era imho.

    As an example, despite current gritty Bond, they took time to discuss Rolex vs. Omega and food on the train as well as suits and tailoring in CR. None was mentioned during Dalton's run (and Dalton was almost intentionally unkept in LTK in particular).

    What is not necessary is 'shaken not stirred' or contrived 'Bond, James Bond' (although I like this personally), or gadgets for the sake of gadgets, or 'Bond theme every five minutes'. They know that now, thankfully. I don't think they knew it during Dalton's time.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,716
    Maybe Cubby stayed on for too long, or he didn't notice times were changing and it wasn't the 60's or 70's anymore?
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    I would rather have the Bond theme every 5 minutes, than 3 bars of the theme film in the entire film. Though ideally, the Bond theme should not be used constantly, but at least use it in the action sequences. Who knows, maybe when EON are ready to stop doing.... whatever it is that they are doing now, and get back to making Bond films, that are comfortable in just being Bond, the Bond theme will be used once more.
  • Posts: 15,117
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Funny that DH was a success after they seriously lighten up and modified the original novel, while Bond felt out of time for many by trying to get back to the source material.

    This does not surprise me. They are two different mediums. One does not necessarily translate well without modifications to the other.

    Die Hard got it right by injecting the witticisms, excellent dialogue, humour and fine style (villain).

    EON got it wrong by dialling all those essential elements back consciously for LTK.

    That's why I was referring to in my earlier posts - EON has a better idea of what the public sees as essential for Bond now, and are balancing it better in the Craig era imho.

    As an example, despite current gritty Bond, they took time to discuss Rolex vs. Omega and food on the train as well as suits and tailoring in CR. None was mentioned during Dalton's run (and Dalton was almost intentionally unkept in LTK in particular).

    What is not necessary is 'shaken not stirred' or contrived 'Bond, James Bond' (although I like this personally), or gadgets for the sake of gadgets, or 'Bond theme every five minutes'. They know that now, thankfully. I don't think they knew it during Dalton's time.

    Some of the many misconceptions about Bond in the general public: he should always drink and ask for martinis "shaken, not stirred", introduce himself this way and wear a tuxedo.
  • Posts: 11,425
    At the end of the day Dalton is my thrid favourite Bond after Sean and Rog, so it would have been nice to have another entry from the Daltonator.
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