Would Goldeneye have been a success with Dalton?

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  • Posts: 15,117
    Getafix wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Can we just accept that Daltons first 007 movie was not inviting enough to come back for the second Miami Vice episode with Dalton. Dalton was just not glamorous enough and his 2nd movie was poorly thought out with the popularity of Miami Vice the movie just added nothing at all. And Crockett was way better looking and sell-able than Mr. Shakespeare Grumpy.

    TLD was a straight down the line success - critically and commercially. LTK was a totally different matter and I think there's a good case for saying that the jump between TLD and LYK was too sudden. May be the success of TLD made EON think they could do something more radical and get away with it.

    TLD was arguably the weakest debut by a Bond actor outside of OHMSS. It made money and was successful, but it was definitely not as successful (relatively speaking commercially, in comparison to its immediate predecessors, as LALD, GE, & CR were). This is despite having an uncontroversial script. So while it didn't offend in any way, it didn't blow anyone's socks off either. Outside of Connery, every actor has had a less commercially successful 2nd film (in comparison to the 1st) so the first one has to come out of the blocks strong.

    The script was uncontroversial, but the casting certainly was. Not Dalton's fault of course, but people were expecting someone else. So they dismissed him. In a way, LTK needed to succeed in a big way and this did not happen.
    bondjames wrote: »
    [And if you read my other post, you'll notice I mentioned Dalton was financially unsuccessful, and that's almost certainly because of his inferior charisma compared to the likes of Brosnan. All I said was that his confrontation with Judi Dench's M probably would've been better than Brosnan's.
    I agree. Dalton with Dench would have been incredible to behold.

    I am not so sure. I think Brosnan's youthful look serves GE a lot, especially against Sean Bean (with the seasoned Dalton as Bond, Trevelyan would have come off as very lightweight), but also when it comes to his relationship with the new M. Sure, Dalton can convince as a relic of the Cold War, but his look and attitude display far less the unruly pupil. Samantha Bond as Moneypenny, however, I think might have worked really well with Dalton.


    Who said TLD was a weak debut? That's crazy talk.

    GE would obviously have been my better with Dalton.

    Nobody does. We say it was comparatively weaker than other's, save Lazenby's, regardless of its intrinsic quality. Maybe GE would have been better, but I am not so sure and it is not really obvious, is it? And I am not a Brosnan fan,
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Both Dalton films are quality entry's in the series.
    TLD starts off good but after Tangiers it falls flat and the Cello case sled scene sours the film quite a lot.

    LTK is Quality is though.
  • Posts: 11,189
    overall I think TLD holds up the better of the two. LTK has a lot of good stuff but is weakened by a generic set-up.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    TLD was a terribly weak debut, in comparison to Moore, Connery, Brosnan and Craig.

    It was actually the weakest debut in the US of any Bond actor (both Dalton's films came in at #22 and 24 respectively, adjusted for ticket price inflation). Globally it's not much better. Living Daylights is sitting at #21 and LTK sits at #24 globally in inflation adjusted terms.

    A Bond actor has to explode out of the gates. Dalton did not.

    http://www.007james.com/articles/box_office.php

    As @Ludovico said, the public was 'expecting someone else'. In 1995, they got what they wanted (ps: one the best trailers ever imho).

  • Posts: 1,631
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Both Dalton films are quality entry's in the series.

    Very much agreed.

    A 1995 version of GoldenEye featuring Dalton would not have been viable, I don't think. The series had begun to show signs of age, or at least audience fatigue, before Dalton took over and the trend just continued until the legal battles put the series on hiatus for six years. They had to change the lead actor coming into GoldenEye, regardless of how good Dalton was in the role.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    dalton wrote: »
    The series had begun to show signs of age, or at least audience fatigue, before Dalton took over and the trend just continued until the legal battles put the series on hiatus for six years.
    That's a good point. As can be seen from the link I included in my earlier post, Bond wasn't exactly lighting the box office on fire in the 80's (it sort of fell flat throughout the entire John Glen era). So Dalton just go saddled with that baggage. Bad timing......his whole era was just bad timing.
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 11,425
    bondjames wrote: »
    TLD was a terribly weak debut, in comparison to Moore, Connery, Brosnan and Craig.

    It was actually the weakest debut in the US of any Bond actor (both Dalton's films came in at #22 and 24 respectively, adjusted for ticket price inflation). Globally it's not much better. Living Daylights is sitting at #21 and LTK sits at #24 globally in inflation adjusted terms.

    A Bond actor has to explode out of the gates. Dalton did not.

    http://www.007james.com/articles/box_office.php

    As @Ludovico said, the public was 'expecting someone else'. In 1995, they got what they wanted (ps: one the best trailers ever imho).


    Hmm. I think it's a strong debut. Better film and performance IMO than LALD and GE. Being a big Dalton fan I personally probably rate it above CR as well.

    Choosing between any of the debuts now, I'd watch TLD over CR, GE and LALD most times. And inthink Dalton totally owns the role from the first scenes. I think Cubby was pretty happy with it and with Dalton as well.

    The two superior debuts are Connery and OHMSS, although Dalton's performance is perhaps superior to Lazenby. Therefore, in terms of performance I'd argue that TLD is the second best debut after Connery.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Getafix wrote: »
    Hmm. I think it's a strong debut. Better film and performance IMO than LALD and GE. Being a big Dalton fan I personally probably rate it above CR as well.

    The two superior debuts are Connery and OHMSS, although Dalton's performance is perhaps superior to Lazenby. Therefore, in terms of performance I'd argue that TLD is the second best debut after Connery.
    I was only referring to box office. I thought he did a great job in both films personally, but the box office was not there. As mentioned, it really wasn't there during the entire Glen area, compared to before and after. The 80's were a low point box office wise and Dalton just got caught up in it..

    Arnie, Sly, Bruce & Mel were cleaning up in the 80's. By the mid-90's they had all sort of run their course.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Fair enough. I personally don't care about box office although I realise its important to the survival of the series. For my money, the Glen era is one of the most consistently entertaining of the whole series - I love those films.
  • Posts: 1,098
    Dalton, fine actor as he is..........just can't do humour well, and it shows badly on the screen, it feels so forced, and is not natural to him..............so i don't think GE would of been any better with him.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    I think he dials up the drama too much too. Some times his performance can come off as "Look at me, I'm acting!" For Pierce the performance was smooth and natural.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Murdock wrote: »
    For Pierce the performance was smooth and natural.
    I feel almost compelled to post a few examples contradicting this, but I'm going to hold off.

    I agree on Dalton throwing on the drama a little heavily at times.... "Delllaaaaaa!"
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    bondjames wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    For Pierce the performance was smooth and natural.
    I feel almost compelled to post a few examples contradicting this, but I'm going to hold off.

    I agree on Dalton throwing on the drama a little heavily at times.... "Delllaaaaaa!"

    The only one I can think of is when he calls out Elektra but it's not as heavy handed as Della or YOU'RE BLOODY LUCKY TO BE ALIVE!!!
  • Posts: 1,098
    Dalton's facial acting was a bit strong so to speak.....e.g. when he pops the balloon at the fairground, after finding out Saunders has just been killed.........in TLD.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    mepal1 wrote: »
    Dalton's facial acting was a bit strong so to speak.....e.g. when he pops the balloon at the fairground, after finding out Saunders has just been killed.........in TLD.
    Those were actually good, but I think it was more overdone in LTK. It seemed like Dalton's eyes were ready to pop out of his head. :))
    bondactionscenes_15.jpg
  • Posts: 1,631
    Getafix wrote: »
    Fair enough. I personally don't care about box office although I realise its important to the survival of the series. For my money, the Glen era is one of the most consistently entertaining of the whole series - I love those films.

    I definitely agree regarding the Glen films. While the franchise was losing steam from a box office perspective, as I said earlier, I think the quality of those films was rather high, especially when compared to the films that immediately preceded them. FYEO, OP, TLD, LTK, and to a lesser extent AVTAK are all films that I rank pretty high compared to most of the rest of the films.

  • Posts: 1,098
    Off topic.......but in answer to the previous comment.........i thought the John Glen films were very good..........its just a shame that some of his films contained some unnecessary slapstick, childish, humour scenes..........but that was probably not down to him.
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 11,425
    mepal1 wrote: »
    Off topic.......but in answer to the previous comment.........i thought the John Glen films were very good..........its just a shame that some of his films contained some unnecessary slapstick, childish, humour scenes..........but that was probably not down to him.

    Not sure. I can let the slapstick pass mostly as the test of those films is so good.
    mepal1 wrote: »
    Dalton, fine actor as he is..........just can't do humour well, and it shows badly on the screen, it feels so forced, and is not natural to him..............so i don't think GE would of been any better with him.

    It's such total nonsense that Dalton 'can't do humour'. Have you seen Hot Fuzz? I'd even argue that he handles most of the humour in his Bond movies pretty well.

    I've never really understood where this idea comes from. And Dalton actually said after LTK that he wanted his next one to have more laughs. It's a bit like CR and QOS where they dialled back the humour and then ramped it up more with the next two movies (although not entirely successfully IMO). I watched SP in London a couple of weeks ago and I think there was one moment the audience laughed in the whole film.

    Any way, Dalton was perfectly capable of handling humour and there's every reason to believe that his third would have made a point of upping the laughs.
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 11,189
    Dalton could do certain types of humour but not really the Moore-style one-liners.

    "He met his Waterloo"
    "Looks like he came to a dead end"
    "He got the BOOT"
  • Posts: 1,631
    Getafix wrote: »
    mepal1 wrote: »
    Off topic.......but in answer to the previous comment.........i thought the John Glen films were very good..........its just a shame that some of his films contained some unnecessary slapstick, childish, humour scenes..........but that was probably not down to him.

    Not sure. I can let the slapstick pass mostly as the test of those films is so good.
    mepal1 wrote: »
    Dalton, fine actor as he is..........just can't do humour well, and it shows badly on the screen, it feels so forced, and is not natural to him..............so i don't think GE would of been any better with him.

    It's such total nonsense that Dalton 'can't do humour'. Have you seen Hot Fuzz? I'd even argue that he handles most of the humour in his Bond movies pretty well.

    I've never really understood where this idea comes from. And Dalton actually said after LTK that he wanted his next one to have more laughs. It's a bit like CR and QOS where they dialled back the humour and then ramped it up more with the next two movies (although not entirely successfully IMO). I watched SP in London a couple of weeks ago and I think there was one moment the audience laughed in the whole film.

    Any way, Dalton was perfectly capable of handling humour and there's every reason to believe that his third would have made a point of upping the laughs.


    Agreed. He also showed that he could handle humor very well during his turn on the NBC series Chuck.

    Now, I will say, as @BAIN123 said above, that he does struggle somewhat with the Roger Moore-style humor, but that's not the only kind of humor that can exist in a Bond film.

  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    edited November 2015 Posts: 1,984
    Dalton was a good actor, he just didn't have enough on-screen charisma. You can see pretty easily from the way he delivers a vast majority of his lines. As I said, he acts well (ie. Saunders' death), but his delivery of the lines is inferior to Brosnan's, despite the fact that Pierce also screwed up a couple of line deliveries.

    Dalton is capable of humour (he has appeared in comedies before), but not the type of humour he was given. The one-liners in LTK were definitely better than the awful ones in TLD. "Salt corrosion" and "he met his waterloo" sucked, lol.
  • Posts: 11,189
    I've said it before so many times, Dalton works better as a lead on television.
  • Posts: 7,653
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I've said it before so many times, Dalton works better as a lead on television.

    this I agree with


  • edited November 2015 Posts: 582
    mepal1 wrote: »
    Dalton's facial acting was a bit strong so to speak.....e.g. when he pops the balloon at the fairground, after finding out Saunders has just been killed.........in TLD.

    Probably because he was such a theatrical actor. Acting on the stage is so different to acting on screen. Theatre acting is all about making it big, whereas on screen conversely you go small. If you're being projected so that your eyes are measured in feet your acting needs to be the opposite of theatre acting -it's more subtle.
  • Posts: 582
    Dalton was a good actor, he just didn't have enough on-screen charisma. You can see pretty easily from the way he delivers a vast majority of his lines. As I said, he acts well (ie. Saunders' death), but his delivery of the lines is inferior to Brosnan's, despite the fact that Pierce also screwed up a couple of line deliveries.

    Dalton is capable of humour (he has appeared in comedies before), but not the type of humour he was given. The one-liners in LTK were definitely better than the awful ones in TLD. "Salt corrosion" and "he met his waterloo" sucked, lol.

    Dalton was quite good in Hot Fuzz
  • Posts: 11,189
    I'm no expert on acting but certainly in comparison to Connery, Moore and Craig's acting styles Dalton does tend to be quite dramatic when it comes to his facial expressions.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    tigers99 wrote: »
    mepal1 wrote: »
    Dalton's facial acting was a bit strong so to speak.....e.g. when he pops the balloon at the fairground, after finding out Saunders has just been killed.........in TLD.

    Probably because he was such a theatrical actor. Acting on the stage is so different to acting on screen. Theatre acting is all about making it big, whereas on screen conversely you go small. If you're being projected so that your eyes are measured in feet your acting needs to be the opposite of theatre acting -it's more subtle.
    That's true. Speaking of which, when I had the privilege of seeing DC on stage for Betrayal on Broadway in 2013, I noticed how great a theatrical actor he is.

    His performance was a lot more animated and he projected his voice very forcefully......much better than his wife who was in the same play.

    I remember thinking of Dalton at that point, because DC's performance on stage reminded me of Dalton's performance as Bond, with all the animation/drama.
  • Posts: 582
    bondjames wrote: »
    tigers99 wrote: »
    mepal1 wrote: »
    Dalton's facial acting was a bit strong so to speak.....e.g. when he pops the balloon at the fairground, after finding out Saunders has just been killed.........in TLD.

    Probably because he was such a theatrical actor. Acting on the stage is so different to acting on screen. Theatre acting is all about making it big, whereas on screen conversely you go small. If you're being projected so that your eyes are measured in feet your acting needs to be the opposite of theatre acting -it's more subtle.
    That's true. Speaking of which, when I had the privilege of seeing DC on stage for Betrayal on Broadway in 2013, I noticed how great a theatrical actor he is.

    His performance was a lot more animated and he projected his voice very forcefully......much better than his wife who was in the same play.

    I remember thinking of Dalton at that point, because DC's performance on stage reminded me of Dalton's performance as Bond, with all the animation/drama.

    Interesting. I've never seen DC act on stage, but imagine he would be very good. I reckon he'll make a good Iago.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Why do people always go on about Dalton being a 'stage actor'. Is he any more of a stage actor than Brosnan or Craig?

    As someone pointed out above, there are lots of ways to do humour, not just the Moore style, and Dalton is clearly capable of handling humour, especially when it's written to suit his style - the same goes for all the Bond actors.
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 11,189
    Getafix wrote: »
    Why do people always go on about Dalton being a 'stage actor'. Is he any more of a stage actor than Brosnan or Craig?

    As someone pointed out above, there are lots of ways to do humour, not just the Moore style, and Dalton is clearly capable of handling humour, especially when it's written to suit his style - the same goes for all the Bond actors.

    Yes. He's often looks around dramatically and tenses up his face. There's a very "visual" quality to quite a lot of his acting.

    For me, this is most obvious in LTK during the scene with Lupe in the casino (I think it's probably his weakest performance as Bond too). You can see him trying to act angry and aggressive with him turning his head all the time.

    The pause, followed by his dramatic delivery of "TAKE ME TO HIM" doesn't feel particularly natural to me either.

    I think Dalts did a lot of good stuff in LTK but I don't feel he excels in this scene. All I can think in my head is "he's acting".
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