Would Goldeneye have been a success with Dalton?

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  • edited November 2015 Posts: 11,425
    acoppola wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    I agree that the crazy big budget for SP is not really up there on the screen.

    $25m on that car chase? Bonkers.

    Just goes to show how easy it is to waste money on a big movie.

    I am going to be honest, and say that it was a letdown. John Glen did an amazing job, and knew how to do a great story. He was original with action. He was the man who filmed the PTS of TSWLM.

    Skyfall on watching it again, looks so pretentious, and too much filler. Craig looks like a British right-wing thug with that hairstyle. I was bored. Yet, I can watch DAF hundreds of times and enjoy it. Big budget does not equal great Bond.

    Totally agree with you.

    John Glen is the single most underrated director on these threads. Above all, as you say, he knew how to tell a story and his action was fantastic.

    SF is a pretentious snore fest with zero rewatch-ability. I actually enjoyed SP but it's poor man's fare compared to the Glen era Bonds. I'd rather watch pretty much any of Glen's films over anything made since.

    And I totally agee on DAF as well. Bizarre cheese fest that it is, I still enjoy it more than the post Dalton Bond movies.
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 11,189
    Getafix wrote: »
    But Davi is so good...

    He is! He elevates what was a fairly standard 80s drug lord figure into someone far more frightening.

    I will admit, I think he is a stronger villain than Sean Bean.

    Bean had the physical toughness but doesn't actually do a lot in the film other than bark orders and give speeches.
  • Posts: 11,425
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    But Davi is so good...

    He is! He elevates what was a fairly standard 80s drug lord figure into someone far more frightening.

    I will admit, I think he is a stronger villain than Sean Bean.

    Bean had the physical toughness but doesn't actually do a lot in the film other than bark orders and give speeches.

    I'm not a huge fan of the Beanster. Remember thinking what an underwhelming villain he was. And what a lame cartoon villain Onatop was as well (a waste of a good actress too).
  • Posts: 613
    Getafix wrote: »
    I agree that the crazy big budget for SP is not really up there on the screen.

    $25m on that car chase? Bonkers.

    Just goes to show how easy it is to waste money on a big movie.

    Wow didn't know that scene cost 25m.Dan crashing 4 cars probably didn't help.
  • Posts: 11,189
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    The dialogue is fine. Flawless gem though.... I guess you watch GE on mute to ignore the awful score.
    The score is not awful. The only track I don't like is "Ladies First" I happen to enjoy the score very much.


    Bar the pre-title sequence and tank chase. I hate the score, it sounds cheap and nasty like a channel 5 TV movie. Serra's 'Experience of Love' is laughable........the male vocal is amatuer.

    I never had a problem with it when I was younger but its dated terribly and doesn't suit Bond at all.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    Posts: 1,243
    Getafix wrote: »
    acoppola wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    I agree that the crazy big budget for SP is not really up there on the screen.

    $25m on that car chase? Bonkers.

    Just goes to show how easy it is to waste money on a big movie.

    I am going to be honest, and say that it was a letdown. John Glen did an amazing job, and knew how to do a great story. He was original with action. He was the man who filmed the PTS of TSWLM.

    Skyfall on watching it again, looks so pretentious, and too much filler. Craig looks like a British right-wing thug with that hairstyle. I was bored. Yet, I can watch DAF hundreds of times and enjoy it. Big budget does not equal great Bond.

    Totally agree with you.

    John Glen is the single most underrated director on these threads. Above all, as you say, he knew how to tell a story and his action was fantastic.

    SF is a pretentious snore fest with zero rewatch-ability. I actually enjoyed SP but it's poor man's fare compared to the Glen era Bonds. I'd rather watch pretty much any of Glen's films over anything made since.

    And I totally agee on DAF as well. Bizarre cheese fest that it is, I still enjoy it more than the post Dalton Bond movies.

    Glad it is not only me. My brother-in-law loves Skyfall, but he thinks Bond films are shit. Skyfall is depressing and does not hold a candle to FRWL or even LALD.

    And Skyfall has upped my appreciation of LTK. LTK feels like a comedy at times in comparisson, which is ironic, considering how serious some say Dalton was. But, the Craig era has boosted the popularity of Dalton. I

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    acoppola wrote: »
    Big budget does not equal great Bond.
    This very true. In fact, an argument can be made that the opposite is normally true, especially with EON.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Yes, LTK has a lot of lighthearted typical Bond moments. With hindsight it's the last film of the classic era. Although I do regret the way it introduces the 'going rogue' dimension, that is now the starting point for every film.

    As M said, 'We're not a country club 007'.
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 11,189
    Bond's don't necessarily have to be big budget...but they should feel classy and sophisticated.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited November 2015 Posts: 1,243
    bondjames wrote: »
    acoppola wrote: »
    Big budget does not equal great Bond.
    This very true. In fact, an argument can be made that the opposite is normally true, especially with EON.

    Yes, on doing some thinking and reappraising, I think the old Bond films were so inventive with little resources. And the humour was spectacular. I feel modern Bond is too over-calculated and a bit too corporate. I never confused old Bond with any other films.

    But, now, I am reminded of other films when I watch new Bond.
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 11,425
    The quality of the writing has plummeted.

    SP was a bit better, but it's like scraps from the table compared to the briliiantly to the point and witty Maibaum scripts.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    Posts: 1,243
    Getafix wrote: »
    Yes, LTK has a lot of lighthearted typical Bond moments. With hindsight it's the last film of the classic era. Although I do regret the way it introduces the 'going rogue' dimension, that is now the starting point for every film.

    As M said, 'We're not a country club 007'.

    Agree 100%. It feels like classic Bond. I got John Glen to sign my book in London recently, and told him how I love how LTK had elements of Thunderball with the water scenes. And he said he loved those early films and was conscious of that/

    And LTK ties in with LALD. They used story elements from the novel, and we have the same Felix. I love Dalton serious, but, I love Moore campiness when done brilliantly like LALD.

  • edited November 2015 Posts: 11,189
    Getafix wrote: »
    Yes, LTK has a lot of lighthearted typical Bond moments. With hindsight it's the last film of the classic era. Although I do regret the way it introduces the 'going rogue' dimension, that is now the starting point for every film.

    As M said, 'We're not a country club 007'.

    I actually think TLD was after re-watching it the other day.

    It's got the last score from Barry as well as the last to feature sweeping cinematography.

    I've got some problems with that film, but as an overall Bond experience it works better than LTK does...Dalton prefers it too apparently.

    Regarding David Hedison, I actually don't think he's all that great in LTK. His "He was married once, but it was a long time ago" is nice, but he overplays things sometimes. The moment when he mutters "Della" as he comes to is melodramatic and unconvincing.
  • Posts: 613
    LTK was the last one in the era where there was a bond film every 2 years.That's why I agree its the last of the classic era.
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 11,425
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Yes, LTK has a lot of lighthearted typical Bond moments. With hindsight it's the last film of the classic era. Although I do regret the way it introduces the 'going rogue' dimension, that is now the starting point for every film.

    As M said, 'We're not a country club 007'.

    I actually think TLD was after re-watching it the other day.

    It's got the last score from Barry as well as the last to feature sweeping cinematography.

    I've got some problems with that film, but as an overall Bond experience it works better than LTK does...Dalton prefers it too apparently.

    Regarding David Hedison, I actually don't think he's all that great in LTK. His "He was married once, but it was a long time ago" is nice, but he overplays things sometimes. The moment when he mutters "Della" as he comes to is melodramatic and unconvincing.

    Yes it's open to debate. At the time I felt LTK represented a major break, but now it seems closer to the Classic era than what came afterwards.

    Perhaps it's more accurate to see it as a bit of a transition film.

    I've grown to like it a lot more than I once did.

    On balance I agree that TLD is the more successful film though.

    Nice point about Dalton preferring TLD. He's stereotyped as "the serious Bond" but like Craig, he actually enjoyed and pushed for the lighter moments and the humour.

    Back in Dalton's time the actors were just handed the script and that was that. I think I'm correct in saying Dalton got the LTK script 6 weeks before filming started. He was just expected to get on and do it.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I think EON intended for LTK to be a major break actually. They almost said as much during the North American premiere (I think I saw that posted somewhere here).

    Ultimately and in retrospect it does seem more like the 'classic era' though, even with all the changes they made, due to what came afterwards not having thematic consistency. There is something to be said for having the same director over multiple films.
  • Posts: 11,425
    bondjames wrote: »
    I think EON intended for LTK to be a major break actually. They almost said as much during the North American premiere (I think I saw that posted somewhere here).

    Ultimately and in retrospect it does seem more like the 'classic era' though, even with all the changes they made, due to what came afterwards not having thematic consistency. There is something to be said for having the same director over multiple films.

    And Glen had directed parts of the previous films as well - namely some of the wonderful action sequences. His imprint is all over so many great Bond moments.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Getafix wrote: »
    Like Benicio Del Torro?

    Does it really matter whether people are known for TV or film? What matters at the end of the day are the performances.

    Any way at the time the GE cast were mainly known to me for TV work - Sean Bean, Robbie Coltrane, Cummings, Minnie Driver, Serena Gordon, Dench etc. And Brosnan was Mr TV incarnate.

    The LTK cast may have also been drawn from TV, but as a Brit I didn't know any of them, so it didn't bother me.

    LTK has a 'Fleming feel to it'.
  • Posts: 11,189
    See that's the thing. Other than a couple of moments and nods, I'm not sure it does. It's too "80s".

    TLD has more of a Fleming feel in my view.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    edited November 2015 Posts: 5,131
    I think both Dalton's films are top 10 Bonds with strong 'nod's' to Fleming. Many people praise TSWLM....that is an example of a dated film, blatently 70's (score, haircuts and clothes). Any 80's dating with regards to LTK is 'small fry' compared to this.
  • Posts: 11,189
    But Spy has a spectacle and charm that Kill doesn't really have.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    edited November 2015 Posts: 5,131
    LTK has a Flemingseque plot. Spectacle doesn't mean great...i.e. DAD and charm is subjective.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    But Spy has a spectacle and charm that Kill doesn't really have.
    Absolutely, but they are both excellent top tier Bond films, even though they are on completely different ends of the spectrum, imho. I love them both.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    I love them both as well as they are Bond. However, TSWLM never makes my top 10.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited November 2015 Posts: 1,243
    Having grown up in the 1980's, I get a 60's feel in parts of LTK. Especially the underwater scenes. Bond feels like a good old-fashioned character, and definitely not like a Bruce Willis or Mel Gibson in Lethal Weapon. Dalton definitely is more Fleming action hero than 80's action hero.

    And the villain in Sanchez is outstanding. Arguably one of the best villains in the entire series. I miss the classic Bond villain. Sanchez has it all, and the interraction between Bond and him is spectacular. It feels unsettling, because you know that Bond knows what will happen if Sanchez discovers what he is really up to.

    Sanchez is so perverse, yet can be likeable. Davi is a fantastic!!!

    And in LTK, you see Bond as using his intelligence against the villain. Bond is not all braun, which he is more brauny now! I mean in Specre when he says to the villain "I came here to kill you!", well, that is asking for it. Old Bond bides his time, and keeps his plans to himself.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    Posts: 1,243
    suavejmf wrote: »
    LTK has a Flemingseque plot. Spectacle doesn't mean great...i.e. DAD and charm is subjective.

    Agreed, LTK is very Flemingesque. Dalton is the dark avenger Bond here!

  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited November 2015 Posts: 1,243
    suavejmf wrote: »
    LTK has a Flemingseque plot. Spectacle doesn't mean great...i.e. DAD and charm is subjective.

    Agreed, LTK is very Flemingesque. Dalton is the dark avenger Bond here! He is very commanding and is not playing to audience expectation of what they want from the character. That takes guts, as he sure got a beating for it.

    Bond as the intervening years have proved, is way more than just an image.



  • AceHoleAceHole Belgium, via Britain
    Posts: 1,731
    bondjames wrote: »
    Speaking from a personal standpoint, when I saw GE first in 1995, I thought it looked very glamorous, primarily because of Monaco (such a Bond fave that place....it's made for him).

    When I saw LTK, I thought it looked cheap (in comparison to previous 80's fare, particularly FYEO etc.).

    However, on recent rewatches, GE appears the more 'tv like' to me these days, while LTK has actually risen in my estimation (in regards to the set designs etc...).

    Having said all that, in the 'acting performance' dept, I think GE wipes the floor with LTK. The GE performances may be exaggerated, but they are Bondian exaggerated to me. The LTK performances do have a tv feel (particularly useless Lowell and Soto), except for Davi and of course Dalton/Del Torro.

    I think even GE beats LTK in the production value department, but to be honest that's no real triumph.
    LTK's strengths rests solidly on it's leading men's performances, and it's stunts (the Wavecrest action sequence is one of "80's Bond's" best), and for that alone it trumps GE for me.

    I stand by my statement that it's a crying shame Dalton never got his 'full' Bond outing - both written for him and with the production/PR budget that his fellow 007's were all granted at some point...

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    AceHole wrote: »
    LTK's strengths rests solidly on it's leading men's performances, and it's stunts (the Wavecrest action sequence is one of "80's Bond's" best), and for that alone it trumps GE for me.
    That's true. Dalton is definitely the highlight, along with Davi. It's great to watch these two go at it. The Brosnan/Bean rivalry in GE did not have the same resonance for me.

    The Wavecrest action sequence, including Kamen's score, is absolutely wonderful. Real Bondian genius, especially when Bond water ski's parallel up to the plane and lands on the side. I wish we had something like that in SP.
  • AceHoleAceHole Belgium, via Britain
    edited November 2015 Posts: 1,731
    bondjames wrote: »
    AceHole wrote: »
    LTK's strengths rests solidly on it's leading men's performances, and it's stunts (the Wavecrest action sequence is one of "80's Bond's" best), and for that alone it trumps GE for me.
    That's true. Dalton is definitely the highlight, along with Davi. It's great to watch these two go at it. The Brosnan/Bean rivalry in GE did not have the same resonance for me.

    The Wavecrest action sequence, including Kamen's score, is absolutely wonderful. Real Bondian genius, especially when Bond water ski's parallel up to the plane and lands on the side. I wish we had something like that in SP.

    EXACTLY. That is what I miss in Bondfilms these days - the 'cool' factor of the action sequences.
    This does not mean 'bigger' or 'louder explosions', I mean that sort of indefinable smart solution to a precarious situation which is THE HALLMARK of James Bond action, to me... see also TLD's parachute+Jeep escape.

    It's that sort of stuff that Craig needs imo. And MGW wrote that sort of thing. Ergo...
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