Would Goldeneye have been a success with Dalton?

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  • Posts: 11,425
    SaintMark wrote: »
    I think that the car stunt in TMWTGG is brilliant especially when you know that there is no CGI involved.

    The stunt is amazing. Shame about JW and the slide whistle!
  • Posts: 7,653
    Getafix wrote: »
    SaintMark wrote: »
    I think that the car stunt in TMWTGG is brilliant especially when you know that there is no CGI involved.

    The stunt is amazing. Shame about JW and the slide whistle!

    Always an excuse to pull a perfect stunt down, for me that one stunt with JW & theslide whistle has more creativity in it then all stunts in SPECTRE combined because lets face it they were rather lifeless in execution and people. Some of those stunts in SPECTRE could use a little JW.

  • Posts: 11,425
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    SaintMark wrote: »
    I think that the car stunt in TMWTGG is brilliant especially when you know that there is no CGI involved.

    The stunt is amazing. Shame about JW and the slide whistle!

    Always an excuse to pull a perfect stunt down, for me that one stunt with JW & theslide whistle has more creativity in it then all stunts in SPECTRE combined because lets face it they were rather lifeless in execution and people. Some of those stunts in SPECTRE could use a little JW.

    I agree Spectre's stunts were lacklustre. They looked like CGI, even if they weren't. But the slide whistle is an atrocity. As is JW.

    Wade in GE and TND always reminded me of JW. Another reason I loved the Brosnan era so much.
  • Posts: 7,653
  • mcdonbbmcdonbb deep in the Heart of Texas
    edited December 2015 Posts: 4,116
    Getafix wrote: »
    mcdonbb wrote: »
    dalton wrote: »
    mcdonbb wrote: »
    Yes, Craig lost brownie points with me as well after the faux suicidal ideations he made.

    Very much agreed. I was also rather confused by the lengths that some were willing to go to in order to defend Craig for those comments, while outright slamming Brosnan for having the slightest critique of SPECTRE while having nothing but praise for Craig's work in the film.

    The fact of the matter is that Craig is not the first actor to attempt a serious portrayal of Bond, yet it would seem that the media would like to crown him as such, or at least the first to attempt it since Sean Connery. While it would be nice if Dalton would get the credit that he clearly deserves, if for nothing else but attempting to bring the franchise back to something both closer to the novels as well as more in line with the tone of the original films as opposed to the camp of Diamonds are Forever onward, I'm not holding my breath waiting for it to happen. Still, hopefully Craig's films have caused a few people to go back and give Dalton another look, and see that he was ahead of his time rather than the failure that many people perceive him to be.

    My opinion of Dalton has swayed back and forth ..thanks to a few here that have encouraged me to reevaluate Dalton I am back on board.

    I was a fan of Dalton during his tenure as Bond but I felt alone ...

    I have been critical of Dalton here but that's changing. I was too harsh...

    My gripe against the Dalton films still remains to be Glen. I really wish another director had helmed Dalton's outings.

    Sorry ...the acting in those two especially LTK just ruins what should have been classic outings.

    Sorry I had to vent.

    May be if we can convince you to reassess Dalton then we can also get you to reevaluate the criminally under appreciated John Glen as well. The man gave cinema some of the most iconic action sequences ever committed to celluloid and (IMO) five of the most consistently entertaining entries in the whole series. Even his less good films as Bond director have a lot going for them.

    His action sequences for LTK have been referenced and ripped off by so many other films and yet people make out that he's a director of no consequence.

    I appreciate that but I'm sorry I really am not a Glen fan.

    But yes I do agree that Glen did give us some iconic and often copied action sequences.

    And whomever mentioned the "chase bomb" sequence in OP is right. I love that part of the movie. OP is one of my favorites.

    Truly respect your opinion though.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Getafix wrote: »
    Wade in GE and TND always reminded me of JW. Another reason I loved the Brosnan era so much.
    I never thought I'd see the day! ;)
    Even in jest I'll take it!
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited December 2015 Posts: 23,883
    AceHole wrote: »
    John Glen's greatest hits, action sequences which he oversaw & filmed:

    - OHMSS ski chase(s), bobsleigh finale
    - TSWLM pts, Lotus chase
    - MR pts
    - FYEO ski chase
    - OP pts, plane stunt finale
    - TLD pts, C-130 stunts (Necros fight & Jeep escape)
    - LTK pts, wavecrest action
    All works of genius, as was the TMWTGG flip. I don't mind the whistle actually. That was Barry's choice, and he's allowed a few mess ups here and there, given the brilliance he has delivered for the franchise, including scoring that car chase up to that point.
  • Posts: 11,425
    mcdonbb wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    mcdonbb wrote: »
    dalton wrote: »
    mcdonbb wrote: »
    Yes, Craig lost brownie points with me as well after the faux suicidal ideations he made.

    Very much agreed. I was also rather confused by the lengths that some were willing to go to in order to defend Craig for those comments, while outright slamming Brosnan for having the slightest critique of SPECTRE while having nothing but praise for Craig's work in the film.

    The fact of the matter is that Craig is not the first actor to attempt a serious portrayal of Bond, yet it would seem that the media would like to crown him as such, or at least the first to attempt it since Sean Connery. While it would be nice if Dalton would get the credit that he clearly deserves, if for nothing else but attempting to bring the franchise back to something both closer to the novels as well as more in line with the tone of the original films as opposed to the camp of Diamonds are Forever onward, I'm not holding my breath waiting for it to happen. Still, hopefully Craig's films have caused a few people to go back and give Dalton another look, and see that he was ahead of his time rather than the failure that many people perceive him to be.

    My opinion of Dalton has swayed back and forth ..thanks to a few here that have encouraged me to reevaluate Dalton I am back on board.

    I was a fan of Dalton during his tenure as Bond but I felt alone ...

    I have been critical of Dalton here but that's changing. I was too harsh...

    My gripe against the Dalton films still remains to be Glen. I really wish another director had helmed Dalton's outings.

    Sorry ...the acting in those two especially LTK just ruins what should have been classic outings.

    Sorry I had to vent.

    May be if we can convince you to reassess Dalton then we can also get you to reevaluate the criminally under appreciated John Glen as well. The man gave cinema some of the most iconic action sequences ever committed to celluloid and (IMO) five of the most consistently entertaining entries in the whole series. Even his less good films as Bond director have a lot going for them.

    His action sequences for LTK have been referenced and ripped off by so many other films and yet people make out that he's a director of no consequence.

    I appreciate that but I'm sorry I really am not a Glen fan.

    But yes I do agree that Glen did give us some iconic and often copied action sequences.

    And whomever mentioned the "chase bomb" sequence in OP is right. I love that part of the movie. OP is one of my favorites.

    Truly respect your opinion though.


    So OP is one of your favourites but you don't rate Glen...?

    I'll try and work that one out later.

    OP is top ten material for me. Possibly Moore's best.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    edited December 2015 Posts: 5,131
    I like Glen. But FYEO, TLD and LTK are his best. Fleming's influence with the right amount of humour. OP went to far in parts. With some careful editing it would have been one of Glens best.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Have to say OP is one of my favourites. Glen is very underrated by many.

    A shame he and Tim didn't get on.
  • MI60071987892016MI60071987892016 Australia
    Posts: 40
    GoldenEye would be more better if Timmy did it, cuz GoldenEye was made for him like How the Living Daylights was made for Roger Moore, GoldenEye would be more a spy thriller than a funny movie
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Odd seeing as they knew Dalton wasn't coming back since 1991. ;)
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    Odd seeing as they knew Dalton wasn't coming back since 1991. ;)

    Not only that, but Dalton felt that too much time had passed since his last Bond, to make another in 1995 (as well as something about audiences not wanting to see a 50+ year old Bond).
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    Odd seeing as they knew Dalton wasn't coming back since 1991. ;)

    Not only that, but Dalton felt that too much time had passed since his last Bond, to make another in 1995 (as well as something about audiences not wanting to see a 50+ year old Bond).

    A big shame because even at 70+ year old, Dalton looks quite Bondian.
  • Posts: 15,125
    Odd seeing as they knew Dalton wasn't coming back since 1991. ;)

    Not only that, but Dalton felt that too much time had passed since his last Bond, to make another in 1995 (as well as something about audiences not wanting to see a 50+ year old Bond).

    I never saw GE as a potentially Dalton Bond movie. Not as it stands anyway. Maybe in its earlier draft but as it stands it is a Bond movie for a new Bond actor.

    And Dalton was wise in his reservations to play Bond again.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Odd seeing as they knew Dalton wasn't coming back since 1991. ;)

    Not only that, but Dalton felt that too much time had passed since his last Bond, to make another in 1995 (as well as something about audiences not wanting to see a 50+ year old Bond).

    I never saw GE as a potentially Dalton Bond movie. Not as it stands anyway. Maybe in its earlier draft but as it stands it is a Bond movie for a new Bond actor.

    And Dalton was wise in his reservations to play Bond again.

    Now I see it being the opposite. GoldenEye feels like we are supposed to be already used to this Bond.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,400
    Getafix wrote: »
    Have to say OP is one of my favourites. Glen is very underrated by many.

    A shame he and Tim didn't get on.

    yes, the difference between OP and some of the other wackier entries is that, as crazy as it gets, it never forgets to tell an engaging and intriguing story with good characters and genuine tension. With MR, DAD and to a certain extent DAF, they all just kinda unravel after a certain point and nothing seems to matter anymore. Even the much derided clown suit in OP is part of a fantastically thrilling and suspenseful sequence. For me the film pushes the comedy to the limit, without ever losing the central focus of the plot. Its a great flick for a Sunday afternoon.
  • Posts: 16,169
    Odd seeing as they knew Dalton wasn't coming back since 1991. ;)

    Not only that, but Dalton felt that too much time had passed since his last Bond, to make another in 1995 (as well as something about audiences not wanting to see a 50+ year old Bond).

    If I remember correctly, Tim was up for coming back as late as Fall, 1993. In an interview at that time he had mentioned Michael France was writing the script, and anticipated starting around January/February. He was planning on just doing GoldenEye, then play it by ear. He resigned in April as Cubby had wanted him to plan on doing 4 or 5 more films. Too long of a commitment at that point.
    Too bad they couldn't have worked something out. Seems whenever there is a gap of more than 3 years a new contract must be made. Like Craig having signed for 3 films after QoS (even though lately we're told it's an open contract).
  • Posts: 15,125
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Odd seeing as they knew Dalton wasn't coming back since 1991. ;)

    Not only that, but Dalton felt that too much time had passed since his last Bond, to make another in 1995 (as well as something about audiences not wanting to see a 50+ year old Bond).

    I never saw GE as a potentially Dalton Bond movie. Not as it stands anyway. Maybe in its earlier draft but as it stands it is a Bond movie for a new Bond actor.

    And Dalton was wise in his reservations to play Bond again.

    Now I see it being the opposite. GoldenEye feels like we are supposed to be already used to this Bond.

    But he's Bond so that would make sense whoever plays him. I don't think the antagonism between Bond and Trevelyan would have worked as well with Dalton. Bean's character would have come off as far weaker against a seasoned Bond. In this one instance Brosnan's youthful looks served him and the movie.
  • edited July 2016 Posts: 16,169
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Odd seeing as they knew Dalton wasn't coming back since 1991. ;)

    Not only that, but Dalton felt that too much time had passed since his last Bond, to make another in 1995 (as well as something about audiences not wanting to see a 50+ year old Bond).

    I never saw GE as a potentially Dalton Bond movie. Not as it stands anyway. Maybe in its earlier draft but as it stands it is a Bond movie for a new Bond actor.

    And Dalton was wise in his reservations to play Bond again.

    Now I see it being the opposite. GoldenEye feels like we are supposed to be already used to this Bond.

    But he's Bond so that would make sense whoever plays him. I don't think the antagonism between Bond and Trevelyan would have worked as well with Dalton. Bean's character would have come off as far weaker against a seasoned Bond. In this one instance Brosnan's youthful looks served him and the movie.

    Trevelyan, in the early Dalton drafts was older. I believe Anthony Hopkins was one of the first choices to play Trevelyan.
  • Posts: 7,434
    I think Hopkins was considered for the role, but not offered the part! He was to play Carver in TND, but opted out because the script wasn't finished. I do think GE would have worked with Dalton, but i believe now it wasn't his decision, i think the money men wouldn't agree with bringing him back because of the critical and commercial failure of LTK! And it was true that Dalton was still in there to play Bond in the early script stages (Didn't Director Renny Harlin of Diehard 2 fame, turn down the helming job of GE, because he didn't like Daltons portrayal of 007? ) Not sure even Dalton could have improved GE, as I think it has aged very badly compared to other Bond films!
  • edited July 2016 Posts: 11,189
    Most of Brosnan's films haven't aged particularly well, though I think parts of GE still hold up reasonably.

    That said, I'm not entirely convinced that much of LTK has aged very well either (except the tanker chase which is great).
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,400
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Most of Brosnan's films haven't aged particularly well, though I think parts of GE still hold up reasonably.

    That said, I'm not entirely convinced that much of LTK has aged very well either (except the tanker chase which is great).

    You're right, LTK looks like an episode of murder she wrote.
  • Posts: 11,189
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Most of Brosnan's films haven't aged particularly well, though I think parts of GE still hold up reasonably.

    That said, I'm not entirely convinced that much of LTK has aged very well either (except the tanker chase which is great).

    You're right, LTK looks like an episode of murder she wrote.

    Parts of it do have a television feel. I've always felt that some of the early scenes such as those in Felix's house feel like they are made for the small screen.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,400
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Most of Brosnan's films haven't aged particularly well, though I think parts of GE still hold up reasonably.

    That said, I'm not entirely convinced that much of LTK has aged very well either (except the tanker chase which is great).

    You're right, LTK looks like an episode of murder she wrote.

    Parts of it do have a television feel. I've always felt that some of the early scenes such as those in Felix's house feel like they are made for the small screen.

    Not just that, but the sounds effects and the acting from the extras. Like, tell me Della or the accountable for Sanchez hasn't just walked off the set of Murder She Wrote. And some of the sounds effects were done by people making 'swoosh' sounds into a mic.
  • Posts: 11,189
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Most of Brosnan's films haven't aged particularly well, though I think parts of GE still hold up reasonably.

    That said, I'm not entirely convinced that much of LTK has aged very well either (except the tanker chase which is great).

    You're right, LTK looks like an episode of murder she wrote.

    Parts of it do have a television feel. I've always felt that some of the early scenes such as those in Felix's house feel like they are made for the small screen.

    Not just that, but the sounds effects and the acting from the extras. Like, tell me Della or the accountable for Sanchez hasn't just walked off the set of Murder She Wrote. And some of the sounds effects were done by people making 'swoosh' sounds into a mic.

    Some of the supporting cast were rather bad.
  • Posts: 16,169
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Most of Brosnan's films haven't aged particularly well, though I think parts of GE still hold up reasonably.

    That said, I'm not entirely convinced that much of LTK has aged very well either (except the tanker chase which is great).

    You're right, LTK looks like an episode of murder she wrote.

    LOL!!! I hadn't thought about Murder She Wrote. LTK reminds me of Hunter. Even on the US one sheet poster Dalton looks a bit like Fred Dryer behind the obviously pasted on photo of Lowell and Soto.
    More than anything, LTK, looks like a Chuck Norris or Charles Bronson Cannon
    film from that time. Although the Blu-ray for LTK is sharp as a pin, in the cinema the picture was extremely dirty looking. There's a moment during the casino sequence, where the reel changes, cuts to a shot of Sanchez and the film stock is considerably different.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited July 2016 Posts: 23,883
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Most of Brosnan's films haven't aged particularly well, though I think parts of GE still hold up reasonably.

    That said, I'm not entirely convinced that much of LTK has aged very well either (except the tanker chase which is great).

    You're right, LTK looks like an episode of murder she wrote.

    Parts of it do have a television feel. I've always felt that some of the early scenes such as those in Felix's house feel like they are made for the small screen.

    Not just that, but the sounds effects and the acting from the extras. Like, tell me Della or the accountable for Sanchez hasn't just walked off the set of Murder She Wrote. And some of the sounds effects were done by people making 'swoosh' sounds into a mic.

    Some of the supporting cast were rather bad.
    I agree. In fact, I'd say it looked cheaper in places (particularly Key West) than contemporary tv shows of the time, including Miami Vice, and some of the acting was quite poor including Grant Bush and Everett McGill (who was great in Twin Peaks).
  • Posts: 15,125
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Odd seeing as they knew Dalton wasn't coming back since 1991. ;)

    Not only that, but Dalton felt that too much time had passed since his last Bond, to make another in 1995 (as well as something about audiences not wanting to see a 50+ year old Bond).

    I never saw GE as a potentially Dalton Bond movie. Not as it stands anyway. Maybe in its earlier draft but as it stands it is a Bond movie for a new Bond actor.

    And Dalton was wise in his reservations to play Bond again.

    Now I see it being the opposite. GoldenEye feels like we are supposed to be already used to this Bond.

    But he's Bond so that would make sense whoever plays him. I don't think the antagonism between Bond and Trevelyan would have worked as well with Dalton. Bean's character would have come off as far weaker against a seasoned Bond. In this one instance Brosnan's youthful looks served him and the movie.

    Trevelyan, in the early Dalton drafts was older. I believe Anthony Hopkins was one of the first choices to play Trevelyan.

    I know that. And a mentor figure to Bond (good idea) and I believe a former M (questionable idea). But then you might as well speak of a completely different movie. Hence what I said: Goldeneye as it stands would not have worked as well with Dalton. Unless you considerably change it... And then it's no longer the GE we know.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,013
    If Dalton had done GE he would have had to have worn a hairpiece as he was seriously receding by the time GE came out!

    GE was a real re-start for the Bond films and I think it worked very well in balancing all the Bondian elements together. Martin Campbell brought a nice fresh feel to the film as he did with CR. This new start really did need a new actor and Brosnan came up trumps.
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