A View to a Kill. Let's make it better!

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  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,583
    How to make View to a Kill better:

    1) Bring in Timothy Dalton
    2) Keep Duran Duran’s theme
    3) No May Day
    4) No Beach Boys during the PTS
    5) A more complex Max Zorin
    6) Michelle Pfeiffer as Mary Ann Russell.
    7) Keep Patrick McNamee
    8) Entirely new story that expands on the Fleming short story, which sees Bond investigating the death of a motorcycle dispatch rider and the theft of top secret documents that Zorin is behind.

    Easy.

    Except maybe about the casting of Michelle Pfeiffer and the removal of May Day, I pretty much agree with all your points, especially the introduction of Dalton and the need of a new and better story, while retaining Zorin as the antagonist. Looking back, Osborne and Davies's screenplay for Bond 17, rewritten with Zorin in place of Sir Henry Ferguson, could have been an interesting base for an alternative Bond 14 starring Dalton.

    In a more secondary way, I would have preferred the title to be "From a View to a Kill".

    I like the idea of Michelle Pfeiffer. She hadn't entered my thoughts, but she would have been perfect...and might have done it--perfect point in her career.

    But let's not stop at Dalton. What if Pierce started with AVTAK?
  • FoxRox wrote: »
    The thing with AVTAK for me is that while it could never be among the very best-made, elite Bond films, I don't think much tweaking could really make the experience of it more enjoyable. Christopher Walken as Zorin is one of the series' best villains, May Day is a fantastic henchwoman, Roger Moore as Bond - though noticeably old in the role - is still so hard to imagine being swapped out of this one for me. John Barry's score and the title song are pure awesomeness. Stacey ranks as one of my least favorite Bond girls, so I guess perhaps some altering there could help, but as a collective whole AVTAK has this silly, even flawed charm to it that I feel it would lose with changes to make it objectively "better." I used to put this film right at the bottom. Now it's in the middle and I adore it for what it is.

    I feel similarly. AVTAK has always been one of my favorites. It’s both a Moore film and a Glen film through and through, yet has an identity all its own, and while it’s fun to imagine Dalton or a young Brosnan as the lead, some of the film’s charm and dare I say “soul” would be lost with the removal of Moore’s gentlemanly older Bond. There is little in the film that needs to be taken out to improve the whole. I’d readily take my shears to the bumbling San Francisco cop and ensuing fire truck chase and maybe have Bond outwit the myriad thugs by means other than fisticuffs so they wouldn’t all have to be quite so aged and dusty looking, but that’s about it. The cast is terrific as is. Some interesting replacements for Tanya Roberts have been mentioned here, and I’d go along with Pfeiffer or whomever else. But Walken, Jones, Macnee—can’t think of better replacements for any of them. Sure, Bowie would have been incredible, Sting interesting, but either of them better than Walken in this? Not a chance. Then you’ve got Paris and San Francisco put beautifully on display, one of John Barry’s most sublime scores ever, and a masterpiece of a title song by Duran Duran. Perhaps things could have been pushed further for heightened effect: the relationship between Zorin and May Day, the interference of the KGB tracking Zorin down, the threat posed to the Bay Area by Zorin’s scheme beyond the display Bond and Stacey discover. But these are all additions rather than subtractions—or rather elaborations. What exists is at its worst solid and at its best an indispensable chapter in Bond history.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 2020 Posts: 16,344
    echo wrote: »
    More May Day and Madonna (in her prime) as Stacey.

    That's fun, although she'd have been even younger than Roberts and I'm not sure that would work well with Roger! Plus two pop stars in the same film might be a bit much :)
    FoxRox wrote: »
    The thing with AVTAK for me is that while it could never be among the very best-made, elite Bond films, I don't think much tweaking could really make the experience of it more enjoyable. Christopher Walken as Zorin is one of the series' best villains, May Day is a fantastic henchwoman, Roger Moore as Bond - though noticeably old in the role - is still so hard to imagine being swapped out of this one for me. John Barry's score and the title song are pure awesomeness. Stacey ranks as one of my least favorite Bond girls, so I guess perhaps some altering there could help, but as a collective whole AVTAK has this silly, even flawed charm to it that I feel it would lose with changes to make it objectively "better." I used to put this film right at the bottom. Now it's in the middle and I adore it for what it is.

    Yeah I agree there. I think better set pieces could really help (I was watching it in the background last night and I'd forgotten about the fight with the 'baboons' in Stacey's house- there's no real concept to it and feels like it went into the script as a placeholder until they could think of something better, as a few of the other sequences do too) and maybe the earthquake theme could have been expanded a bit (maybe have Zorin set off a test quake somewhere and Bond gets caught up in it), plus, yes I'm afraid I'd probably swap Stacey out too, but otherwise I actually really like it! :)
    TripAces wrote: »
    How to make View to a Kill better:

    1) Bring in Timothy Dalton
    2) Keep Duran Duran’s theme
    3) No May Day
    4) No Beach Boys during the PTS
    5) A more complex Max Zorin
    6) Michelle Pfeiffer as Mary Ann Russell.
    7) Keep Patrick McNamee
    8) Entirely new story that expands on the Fleming short story, which sees Bond investigating the death of a motorcycle dispatch rider and the theft of top secret documents that Zorin is behind.

    Easy.

    Except maybe about the casting of Michelle Pfeiffer and the removal of May Day, I pretty much agree with all your points, especially the introduction of Dalton and the need of a new and better story, while retaining Zorin as the antagonist. Looking back, Osborne and Davies's screenplay for Bond 17, rewritten with Zorin in place of Sir Henry Ferguson, could have been an interesting base for an alternative Bond 14 starring Dalton.

    In a more secondary way, I would have preferred the title to be "From a View to a Kill".

    I like the idea of Michelle Pfeiffer. She hadn't entered my thoughts, but she would have been perfect...and might have done it--perfect point in her career.

    But let's not stop at Dalton. What if Pierce started with AVTAK?

    Well that's what I said a few posts ago: Dalton would have really struggled with this one and in my mind he'd have been blown off the screen by Jones and Walken, but Brosnan would have managed this one just fine. He'd have probably been a bit... enthusiastic with some of the comedy stuff as St. John Smythe but at least he could have handled it.
    But I still prefer Roger in it.
    Perhaps things could have been pushed further for heightened effect: the relationship between Zorin and May Day, the interference of the KGB tracking Zorin down, the threat posed to the Bay Area by Zorin’s scheme beyond the display Bond and Stacey discover. But these are all additions rather than subtractions—or rather elaborations. What exists is at its worst solid and at its best an indispensable chapter in Bond history.

    Good point about the KGB: why does Pola disappear? Just because Bond takes her tape it doesn't mean her investigation stops: he barely learns anything from the tape anyway. It might have been quite fun if she'd popped up at the mine at the end, maybe getting killed by Mayday or something.
  • wintandkiddfaroutwintandkiddfarout Australia
    edited September 2020 Posts: 32
    (quote from mtm) Good point about the KGB: why does Pola disappear? Just because Bond takes her tape it doesn't mean her investigation stops: he barely learns anything from the tape anyway. It might have been quite fun if she'd popped up at the mine at the end, maybe getting killed by Mayday or something.





    That sounds interesting, although to me that would give Bond one more motive to terminate May Day. Remember the knife throwing twins? "That's for 009!" Necros begged in vain for mercy because Bond was presumably thinking about Saunders's murder. Not to mention Licence To Kill as a whole.

    I have to wonder how many victims it would take to push Bond over the edge with May Day.

    Sorry. I'm having difficulty selecting quotes and I can't seem to delete my posts and try again from scratch.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 2020 Posts: 16,344
    (quote from mtm) Good point about the KGB: why does Pola disappear? Just because Bond takes her tape it doesn't mean her investigation stops: he barely learns anything from the tape anyway. It might have been quite fun if she'd popped up at the mine at the end, maybe getting killed by Mayday or something.





    That sounds interesting, although to me that would give Bond one more motive to terminate May Day. Remember the knife throwing twins? "That's for 009!" Necros begged in vain for mercy because Bond was presumably thinking about Saunders's murder. Not to mention Licence To Kill as a whole.

    I have to wonder how many victims it would take to push Bond over the edge with May Day.

    Yes it's a good point, I just don't think he's ever let it compromise a mission: we've always seen him getting revenge as a by-product of the mission.
    Sorry. I'm having difficulty selecting quotes and I can't seem to delete my posts and try again from scratch.

    Yes it can be very complex on here with all of the multiple quotes; I have trouble too. It's a nightmare on a phone! :)
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,277
    I seem to recall that they were going after Grace Jones for OP (for the character that eventually became Gobinda).

    I see Jones as a much better henchman/foil for Walken than Jordan who, like Lonsdale, is underrated in the canon.

    Couldn't May Day have been part of the firetruck chase (or some other action scene here, or at the mine)? This chase is dumb as it is, and could have been excised in its entirety.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,344
    echo wrote: »

    Couldn't May Day have been part of the firetruck chase (or some other action scene here, or at the mine)? This chase is dumb as it is, and could have been excised in its entirety.

    It's a good idea. I think you need a big action scene there, but as you say the firetruck scene doesn't really work. There's a poster concept that depicts it involving helicopters and all sorts and I wonder if it did need to be bigger or something.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I have come to appreciate AVTAK a great deal more than I used to, but the pts could easily have been much better. One of the series worst.
  • wintandkiddfaroutwintandkiddfarout Australia
    Posts: 32
    echo wrote: »
    I seem to recall that they were going after Grace Jones for OP (for the character that eventually became Gobinda).

    I see Jones as a much better henchman/foil for Walken than Jordan who, like Lonsdale, is underrated in the canon.

    That's strange to consider. Assuming the script for Gobinda's role was 100% exactly what they had originally written for Jones, it certainly feels weird to picture her in the climax involving the plane.
    Kamal: Go out and get him.
    Jones: (nervously) Out there?
    Kamal: GO!
    Jones: (reluctantly) Yes excellency.

    Then we all know what happens next, but Jones meeting Gobinda's fate feels so very out of place. Maybe I'm just so used to the character we did get for Octopussy's henchman, but I think it's probably the part of momentary fear at being ordered to go climbing over the plane that does it for me. That feels so unworthy of Jones's May Day character. She would not hesitate to fight in any reckless situation no matter how dangerous.
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    What are the 'rules' with this? Re-casting? Scene refining? Total whitewash and different story entirely?
  • DeathToSpies84DeathToSpies84 Newton-le-Willows, England
    Posts: 257
    echo wrote: »
    More May Day and Madonna (in her prime) as Stacey.

    Acknowledgement that this is Moore's last mission.

    That would have been good with Madonna playing Stacey.

    Madonna can’t act :D
  • If you watch this as Rog's last mission it is a lot more enjoyable.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited November 2023 Posts: 16,344
    If you watch this as Rog's last mission it is a lot more enjoyable.

    Yeah, considering they pretty much knew at the time, it would have been nice to have had a nod or two towards Bond nearing the end of the road.
    I'd forgotten about this thread- it's a fun one! I love this film, despite it not being the best one.
  • George_KaplanGeorge_Kaplan Being chauffeured by Tibbett
    edited November 2023 Posts: 673
    If you watch this as Rog's last mission it is a lot more enjoyable.

    I know what you mean. Something about those shots of Bond hanging onto the rope over San Francisco; the aging hero with the odds up against him, always puts a lump in my throat. Same thing with the music when he rescues Stacey from city hall. Everything about that says it's Roger's last hurrah to me, even if the scene itself is pretty over the top.

    I don't think it was intentional, but it's hard for me not to see it in that context, and I think it's to the film's benefit.

    mtm wrote: »
    I'd forgotten about this thread- it's a fun one! I love this film, despite it not being the best one.

    Quite agree. I always have a good time with it, even if objectively, there's quite a bit wrong with it.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    I like AVTAK a lot as is, but it would have been cool to have Tim start in it. I think his tenure would have benefited from a slightly sillier first film, and the Smythe character would have given him a chance to be more comedic in the first half.

    The second half has some rather dark moments that would play to Dalton's more obvious strengths anyway.
  • I wouldn't have killed off Tibbet. Have him in danger but he could be "drowned" with Bond in the car and then after it is a buddy adventure to bring down Zorin. Tibbet could maybe die nearer the end.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,019
    The thought just crossed my mind that if AVTAK came out today, with Bond basically being dominated by May Day in bed, and making quiche for Stacey, the usual suspects would be screaming that Bond had gone "woke" and that it was all BB's fault.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    The thought just crossed my mind that if AVTAK came out today, with Bond basically being dominated by May Day in bed, and making quiche for Stacey, the usual suspects would be screaming that Bond had gone "woke" and that it was all BB's fault.

    Great point @j_w_pepper ... You're so correct!
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,019
    Say, @peter ...at what ungodly time do you get up in the morning? :-) If I'm not mistaken, we're seven hours ahead of Toronto.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,787
    I would've put Felix Leiter in this film instead of Chuck Lee.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Lol @j_w_pepper ... I have a quirk of waking up between 430 and 5 am. I like to do reading, first chunk of writing for the day, then off to the gym! It keeps me grounded, lol!
  • Posts: 1,324
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    The thought just crossed my mind that if AVTAK came out today, with Bond basically being dominated by May Day in bed, and making quiche for Stacey, the usual suspects would be screaming that Bond had gone "woke" and that it was all BB's fault.

    GE was PC and people knew that at the time.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited November 2023 Posts: 16,344
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    The thought just crossed my mind that if AVTAK came out today, with Bond basically being dominated by May Day in bed, and making quiche for Stacey, the usual suspects would be screaming that Bond had gone "woke" and that it was all BB's fault.

    Very true! Don’t forget all of the ‘has James Bond met his match?’ posters- we’d never be hearing the end of the whining about having a black woman in it.
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    I would've put Felix Leiter in this film instead of Chuck Lee.
    Yes it would have been nice to bookend Roger’s run with a reappearance of David Hedison. Although I guess that would mean perhaps repeating the Tibbett dynamic slightly, and I wouldn’t want to lose him! I think it could probably work though.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,277
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    The thought just crossed my mind that if AVTAK came out today, with Bond basically being dominated by May Day in bed, and making quiche for Stacey, the usual suspects would be screaming that Bond had gone "woke" and that it was all BB's fault.

    LOL I love it.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,787
    mtm wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    I would've put Felix Leiter in this film instead of Chuck Lee.
    Yes it would have been nice to bookend Roger’s run with a reappearance of David Hedison. Although I guess that would mean perhaps repeating the Tibbett dynamic slightly, and I wouldn’t want to lose him! I think it could probably work though.


    For me, I'm just used that everytime Bond goes to America, there's Felix Leiter to welcome him and act as his contact.
    This film is literally where Bond goes to America, kinda like Diamonds Are Forever, but in this film, it's lacking because Felix Leiter completes that presence, I'm really missing him in this film, always makes me think where was Felix at the time Bond arrived there.
    Instead, we're given by a sacrificial lamb and a forgettable character in Chuck Lee.

    Then when in a film like The Living Daylights where he's not totally necessary, the Producers decided to put him there.

    I don't care who played him, the important was to make the Felix Leiter appear everytime Bond goes to America 😁.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited November 2023 Posts: 5,970
    I think May Day should remain but be kept as a henchwoman. The Roger Moore era never really had a proper villainous femme-fatale besides Naomi from The Spy Who Loved Me and she wasn't that big of a character, and May Day had a lot of potential as a villain. I've also found it strange that despite her strength, she never faced off with Bond himself.
  • Posts: 1,916
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    I would've put Felix Leiter in this film instead of Chuck Lee.
    Yes it would have been nice to bookend Roger’s run with a reappearance of David Hedison. Although I guess that would mean perhaps repeating the Tibbett dynamic slightly, and I wouldn’t want to lose him! I think it could probably work though.


    For me, I'm just used that everytime Bond goes to America, there's Felix Leiter to welcome him and act as his contact.
    This film is literally where Bond goes to America, kinda like Diamonds Are Forever, but in this film, it's lacking because Felix Leiter completes that presence, I'm really missing him in this film, always makes me think where was Felix at the time Bond arrived there.
    Instead, we're given by a sacrificial lamb and a forgettable character in Chuck Lee.

    Then when in a film like The Living Daylights where he's not totally necessary, the Producers decided to put him there.

    I don't care who played him, the important was to make the Felix Leiter appear everytime Bond goes to America 😁.

    Completely agree. The only reference I can recall addressing this was in the Starlog AVTAK magazine that came out at the time, someone said since Bond is in America they usually use Leiter but since this AVTAK has a Chinatown it would be more appropriate to have an Asian actor as a contact. That's a pretty flimsy excuse.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited November 2023 Posts: 3,787
    BT3366 wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    I would've put Felix Leiter in this film instead of Chuck Lee.
    Yes it would have been nice to bookend Roger’s run with a reappearance of David Hedison. Although I guess that would mean perhaps repeating the Tibbett dynamic slightly, and I wouldn’t want to lose him! I think it could probably work though.


    For me, I'm just used that everytime Bond goes to America, there's Felix Leiter to welcome him and act as his contact.
    This film is literally where Bond goes to America, kinda like Diamonds Are Forever, but in this film, it's lacking because Felix Leiter completes that presence, I'm really missing him in this film, always makes me think where was Felix at the time Bond arrived there.
    Instead, we're given by a sacrificial lamb and a forgettable character in Chuck Lee.

    Then when in a film like The Living Daylights where he's not totally necessary, the Producers decided to put him there.

    I don't care who played him, the important was to make the Felix Leiter appear everytime Bond goes to America 😁.

    Completely agree. The only reference I can recall addressing this was in the Starlog AVTAK magazine that came out at the time, someone said since Bond is in America they usually use Leiter but since this AVTAK has a Chinatown it would be more appropriate to have an Asian actor as a contact. That's a pretty flimsy excuse.

    Thanks for the info, but yes, a flimsy excuse indeed, a hollow reasoning.
  • use proper fight sequences and not ageing stuntmen in stupid wigs. That one ar Staceys is embarrassing as well as the one in the microchip factory involving Tibbitt..And replace Stacey Sutton with a less annoying character. Moore and Lois Maxwell are clearly too old. But the film is.a guilty 80s pleasure before Bond was taken seriously.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    The only reference I can recall addressing this was in the Starlog AVTAK magazine that came out at the time, someone said since Bond is in America they usually use Leiter but since this AVTAK has a Chinatown it would be more appropriate to have an Asian actor as a contact. That's a pretty flimsy excuse.

    Ugh! So woke!! Babs should be replaced immediately!! Cubby wouldn’t be so wo-

    Oh…
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