The TIMOTHY DALTON Appreciation thread - Discuss His Life, His Career, His Bond Films

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  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,159
    I think that DC and TD are on a different side of the 'dark' spectrum. Craig is a brawler, Dalton makes precise calculations before he moves.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    Getafix wrote:
    Although I think he's good, I still don't think DC has matched Dalt's take on the character.
    I think Craig's sort of detached Bond works well for him, but yeah, the Daltinator just gave Bond more character IMO.
  • edited January 2014 Posts: 11,425
    Agree with you both. For me DC has less range as an actor than Dalton and so his Bond is less complex and three dimensional. But what he does he does pretty well, so I'm not complaining.

    One thing that I personally find a little annoying about DC though is his physical presence. For me Bond has to have an air of physical vulnerability - this is what gives so many of the classic scenes their high tension. For me DC too often looks like such a bruiser that you never really believe that he's in peril. I've said it before, but there are a lot of sequences in the DC era where you just have to feel sorry for the villain, because you know he doesn't stand a chance.
  • edited January 2014 Posts: 11,189
    Craig still edges it a bit for me. Watch the final Jusef scene in QOS. Craig's brilliant in it. His performance is subtle but yet you really feel for him. You can see he's hurting but he's not doing it in a dramatic way which Dalton sometimes did. I didn't get quite as invested with Dalton and (at times for me) it felt a bit like he was acting. The moment that comes closest IMO is the scene when he catches Dellas thingy on her leg. Great bit from Dalts.

    I have grown to like Dalton more though in the last few years. I just think Craig a. has a more alluring screen presence and b. takes it further than Dalton managed.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    chrisisall wrote:
    Getafix wrote:
    Presumably you're impying that Dalton brought it crashing down?
    I think he's saying that if you did pick the wrong actor, it could happen.
    Yes, that's what I'm saying. Dalton certainly did not bring it down. The success of a franchise like Bond in the 80s depended an awful lot on it's showing in the USA. And if TD wasn't clicking with the American audience then the films would suffer. And I believe TLD and LTK did suffer. Not enough to bring the franchise down (it was wobbling throughout the 80s), but enough for a shakeup to be the order of the day.

    I think GE with Dalton would have worked fine and been successful.
  • Posts: 11,425
    NicNac wrote:
    chrisisall wrote:
    Getafix wrote:
    Presumably you're impying that Dalton brought it crashing down?
    I think he's saying that if you did pick the wrong actor, it could happen.
    Yes, that's what I'm saying. Dalton certainly did not bring it down. The success of a franchise like Bond in the 80s depended an awful lot on it's showing in the USA. And if TD wasn't clicking with the American audience then the films would suffer. And I believe TLD and LTK did suffer. Not enough to bring the franchise down (it was wobbling throughout the 80s), but enough for a shakeup to be the order of the day.

    I think GE with Dalton would have worked fine and been successful.

    Glad we agree.
  • Posts: 6,601
    NicNac wrote:
    chrisisall wrote:
    NicNac wrote:
    Well, a serious Bond was very welcome in the late 80s believe you me. I was there and we couldn't wait. Dalton..simply didn't light the screen up,
    I was there too, and I couldn't wait for serious Bonds either. But two things here: first, we were all revved up for our man Remington Steele as Bond for the movie after AVTAK, when he didn't (couldn't) do it, any actor in his place was going to be unfavourably compared, and second, after decades of OTT bad guys, wink-wink, nudge-nudge, and Moore's light touch, a switch from fifth gear to reverse was quite a jarring thing, even for those of us who thought we wanted it. Dalton brought emotional weight to a previously near weightless character. No, he did NOT light the screen up, because his Bond was a human Bond. To see him light the screen up, watch The Rocketeer where he chews scenery up as a cartoon bad guy.

    Crikey yes, I remember The Rocketeer. He does, but it isn't exactly what I meant.

    Timothy Dalton is the actor more than any I would love to see on stage. It's his medium. Cinema is different. Great film actors understand that less is more. Dalton does tend to bring a bit of his stage craft to film, IMHO. His fans think his performance as Bond is subtle, but I see it differently. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. Jack Nicholson can play 'human', so can Jeff Bridges, and many other actors. But as great film actors they still light the screen up.

    @Getafix, it's a point I thought about, and hoped no one would bring it up! But Craig is a successful film actor, as Connery was before him (another one who suffered from endless flops). They both have the charisma and skill to have careers as leading stars.

    I'm in the minority I know, and it really doesn't matter what I think. Having said all this though, I'm pleased as punch that Dalton has such strong support.

    You are NOT in the minority in general, just within this thread, which is normal. I agree with what you said. IMO he is the weakest of them all as far as charisma is concerned. That is, i think, what you meant with not lighting up the screen. He didnt...

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    Dalton to Bond was like Keaton to Batman, Reeve to Superman, Shatner to Kirk, Guinness to Smiley....*

    * who says I am not the master of OTT statements?! :D
  • Posts: 2,402
    Getafix wrote:
    Agree with you both. For me DC has less range as an actor than Dalton and so his Bond is less complex and three dimensional. But what he does he does pretty well, so I'm not complaining.

    One thing that I personally find a little annoying about DC though is his physical presence. For me Bond has to have an air of physical vulnerability - this is what gives so many of the classic scenes their high tension. For me DC too often looks like such a bruiser that you never really believe that he's in peril. I've said it before, but there are a lot of sequences in the DC era where you just have to feel sorry for the villain, because you know he doesn't stand a chance.

    Funny you mention that - I was thinking last night of how I get that feeling from Tim more than from any of the other Bonds. He just has this air about himself that seems very self-assured, very confident.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    I was thinking last night of how I get that feeling from Tim more than from any of the other Bonds. He just has this air about himself that seems very self-assured, very confident.
    I got that in spades from Connery myself. That's the only real Connery/Dalton connection for me.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    chrisisall wrote:
    I was thinking last night of how I get that feeling from Tim more than from any of the other Bonds. He just has this air about himself that seems very self-assured, very confident.
    I got that in spades from Connery myself. That's the only real Connery/Dalton connection for me.

    That and they smoke. :p
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    Murdock wrote:
    That and they smoke. :p
    Ooops! That too.
    :\">
  • Posts: 11,425
    Getafix wrote:
    Agree with you both. For me DC has less range as an actor than Dalton and so his Bond is less complex and three dimensional. But what he does he does pretty well, so I'm not complaining.

    One thing that I personally find a little annoying about DC though is his physical presence. For me Bond has to have an air of physical vulnerability - this is what gives so many of the classic scenes their high tension. For me DC too often looks like such a bruiser that you never really believe that he's in peril. I've said it before, but there are a lot of sequences in the DC era where you just have to feel sorry for the villain, because you know he doesn't stand a chance.

    Funny you mention that - I was thinking last night of how I get that feeling from Tim more than from any of the other Bonds. He just has this air about himself that seems very self-assured, very confident.

    Well, I see self confidence as different from the physical vibe that DC gives out. But fair enough if that's what you feel. I don't think Dalton looks like someone who is necessarily gone come out on top in every encounter though - just my view. Whereas DC looks every inch the ex-military type who people are going to move out of their way to avoid.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    DarthDimi wrote:
    I think that DC and TD are on a different side of the 'dark' spectrum. Craig is a brawler, Dalton makes precise calculations before he moves.


    That's a good way of looking at it. But I still don't like how the lead character (a badly conceived one at that) has become a generic action hero, but that's for another thread.
  • edited January 2014 Posts: 11,425
    I think that's being a little harsh on DC. Not sure his portrayal is exactly generic action hero (although there are lots of parallels with several recent 'troubled' anti-heroes), but I share your reservations about where he and EON have taken the character. The lack of a coherent writing team with a clear idea of who Bond is has been a serious issue over recent decades. I hope this is something Logan can help resolve now he has a clear run at the next two movies.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    Getafix wrote:
    I hope this is something Logan can help resolve now he has a clear run at the next two movies.

    I'm at the point where it's a bit late now. 3 films in and I don't like like what they've done to the character and I don't see it changing until the next actor. It's unlikely that I will see the next one on the big screen, maybe if curiosity gets the better of me, i'll see it on DVD. It brings me no joy to feel this way towards a series that I have had much enjoyment out of since becoming a fan of 18 years ago.
  • edited January 2014 Posts: 11,425
    I felt the same way during the Brosnan era (Brosnan for me is the archetypal action hero interpretation of Bond and utterly bland as a result), but still dragged my sorry self along to watch DAD. I was really excited when they cast DC originally, but my enthusiasm has flagged, particularly after SF. You're probably right though. Three down and I don't really feel that he's nailed it, so unlikely to happen now. I guess DC feels he's achieved what he wants to do with the role and being who he is that's unlikely now to change much. That said, I don't rule out a couple more moderately entertaining entries - which is what CR and QoS were from my perspective.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    @MajorDSmythe and @Getafix. Despite me being a massive Craig fan I do see where you are coming from. He has sort of re-invented the character of (film) Bond. No longer the Gentleman Spy of Moore/Brosnan/Lazenby. He has taken the cool toughness of Connery and fused it with a modern day man of action

    I personally think he has nailed the part in a way no one has since Connery, and the 'man of action' seems more realistic than it did when an elderly Moore was swinging off draw bridges and clinging to the back of planes ( Connery never really had those kind of stunts in his films, so it isn't comparable).

    Craig makes the action as believable as is possible.

    What we are left with is his look. Under 6 feet, blonde, unconventionally handsome (as opposed to classically handsome Brosnan/Moore/Dalton) and all of that. Is it so wrong for Bond to be represented thus?

    So everything about Craig as Bond is wrong...yet so right.

    I just happen to think he conveys more emotion in a blank stare than some actors do with all of their grimacing and smirking tricks. It's 'film acting' of the highest quality.

    And I apologise for hi-jacking the Daltonite thread and talking about Craig, I really do. Call myself a mod!
  • edited January 2014 Posts: 11,425
    I agree with many of the qualities you identify in DC. I like a lot of them. He plays Bond as this very taciturn, slightly grumpy character, which is fine by me, although I do like the rare moments when he shows Bond relaxing a little and enjoying himself. But for me - and I do think this is in large part to do with the scripts and plots we've had - he has never fully become Bond in my eyes. I feel his wings have been clipped. The constant mummying by M and the almost continuous ear-piece contact with MI6 HQ means I have rarely had the sense of him as this man alone in the world, facing immense danger and just using his wits to survive. That ear piece really does annoy the hell out of me - he spends half his time these days babbling on it like some teenager on a school bus.
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    Posts: 13,355
    Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the ear-piece only in Skyfall?

    With Dench out of the way, who knows where we go from here.
  • edited January 2014 Posts: 11,425
    I'm sure they had them at the start of CR as well, didn't they? Any way, it's part of a trend which started during the Brosnan era of Bond being constantly managed and tracked by his handlers back at MI6 HQ. Utterly tedious - turns it into a sort of rebel cop type thing, with Bond going off the rails, losing M's trust, coming back, proving himself. Etc. etc. ad infinitum. I suppose you could say it started with LTK, but at least the electronic surveillance aspect was less evident back then.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    I agree about the rebel cop thing, Bond as a loose cannon. There was a time when Bond annoyed M because he gambled and drank too much (even as early as Dr No M was asking Bond if he ever slept). Now it's a case of M asking Bond to stop killing all of the witnesses.

    Unfortunately it's a curse of the 21st Century that Bond can be followed every step of his way, and it would be more unrealistic if it wasn't so.

    I was watching a drama the other day where the plot progression would have been hampered had a character done the obvious thing and made a call on his mobile. So they just acted as if such a device didn't exist. Can't do that in a Bond anymore..sadly.
  • edited January 2014 Posts: 11,425
    NicNac wrote:
    I agree about the rebel cop thing, Bond as a loose cannon. There was a time when Bond annoyed M because he gambled and drank too much (even as early as Dr No M was asking Bond if he ever slept). Now it's a case of M asking Bond to stop killing all of the witnesses.

    Unfortunately it's a curse of the 21st Century that Bond can be followed every step of his way, and it would be more unrealistic if it wasn't so.

    I was watching a drama the other day where the plot progression would have been hampered had a character done the obvious thing and made a call on his mobile. So they just acted as if such a device didn't exist. Can't do that in a Bond anymore..sadly.

    I'm not so sure. I don't like the sequence, but wasn't the whole point of the third act of SF that they go off the radar and back to basics? No phones. No back up. I found it absurd that Bond is allowed to take the head of MI6 to her death - on British soil - without so much as the locally Bobby turning up to ask what all the commotion is. Any way, my point is, clearly for many people you can do away with the gadgets and ear pieces and still convince.

    I think the Bourne films dealt with the modern technology aspect much better. Yes, people can be tracked, but there are always holes and flaws in the surveillance state that can be exploited. The thing about surveillance technology also is that is does feel oppressive - and that's how it's been used in many films. Yet in recent Bonds, you have this since that Bond is constantly being tracked and the baddies videoed and identified in seconds, but that's supposed to be cool - whereas I feel it increasingly just makes MI6 look and feel like Big Brother.

    Despite all the technological developments, Edward Snowden can still blow the lid off of our modern surveillance states by swiping a harddrive (perhaps the only plausible aspect of the SF plot), and from what I understand, a lot of key intelligence is still down to real agents, doing real espionage. So the underlying reality is still that it remains people and human intelligence (or otherwise) that makes the difference. I wish the Bond films would emphasise this a little more and just pretend that ear pieces don't exist. Seriously, don't they make Bond look like an idiot? Only salesmen and security guards use those things, don't they? I mean, it immediately gives him away.
  • About vulnerability, I think the best example of this is actually Lazenby. Dalton was a cold, world weary assassin. He was vulnerable in the action scenes but he was also very confident and professional.

    Craig is emotionally vulnerable but in the action scenes he's like the terminator. Sure he bleeds but he doesn't seem hurt and he's quite brutal.

    Lazenby was more of an everyman, in and out of the action scenes, and that's what makes him the most vulnerable Bond and the one that's closest to Fleming imo.
  • edited January 2014 Posts: 11,425
    About vulnerability, I think the best example of this is actually Lazenby. Dalton was a cold, world weary assassin. He was vulnerable in the action scenes but he was also very confident and professional.

    Craig is emotionally vulnerable but in the action scenes he's like the terminator. Sure he bleeds but he doesn't seem hurt and he's quite brutal.

    Lazenby was more of an everyman, in and out of the action scenes, and that's what makes him the most vulnerable Bond and the one that's closest to Fleming imo.

    I can see what you're saying. Poor old Laz. I liked him as Bond but think he was poorly directed and could have been even better. Didn't Peter Hunt refuse to speak to him? Considering that, I think you have to give Laz even more credit.

    Not to say that Hunt didn't do a good job overall though.
  • Dalton should've played Dracula for Coppola in 1992, not Gary Oldman.

    And how about a young Daniel Craig as Jonathan Harker, instead of the wretched Keanu Reeves? (Did audiences in the UK burst out laughing at Reeves' godawful "British" accent?)
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    I think Craig looked worse for wear on several occasions. He was often beaten and bruised and clearly showed that he felt it.

    It's a different time though. Lazenby's Bond was thrown from a high speed bob sleigh, rolled over a few times and made a quip to a dog. I have no issues with that because I believe Bond should be a kind of invincible hero. It's what attracted audiences in the first place. The ante has now been upped, but at least Craig isn't walking away from a fight scene looking immaculate.

    Yes Laz was an everyman, but so what? Bond has to evolve and change for new audiences. We can't have Connery and Moore impersonators for ever.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    chrisisall wrote:
    Dalton to Bond was like Keaton to Batman, Reeve to Superman, Shatner to Kirk, Guinness to Smiley....*

    * who says I am not the master of OTT statements?! :D
    Buster Keaton never played Batman - shows what you know ;-)
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    This thread has been re-named to honour the Dalts. Any news items on the man can go in here
  • edited January 2014 Posts: 11,425
    Hmmmm. I prefered the old title. This new one is a bit sterile. Daltonites don't 'appreciate', they bow down in adoration.
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