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so true. apart from the connery films, tim's films are the only ones i can truly watch from start to finish. he brought an intensity to the role that i loved.
and his tenure brought us the last great Bond villain, no one has come close to Sanchez. I'd argue that he was the best bond baddie ever. His dark humor mirror's Dalton's dark portrayal. A fantastic combination.
And one we will see copied again in the Craig era in Skyfall.
I don't think TLD is as different in tone from late Rog as you make out. Plenty of daft sight gags in the early car chase and cello escape. The way that Dalts signs off the PTS on the rich woman's yacht is also very much a classic 80s Bond touch.
Wow...I agree :-S
I agree too. Personally I think it's the opening scenes in Bratislava that cause people to forget its overall tone. The whole sniper scene with Saunders is so evocatively Fleming and stand-out that people forget there are a string of quite humorous scenes littered throughout the rest of the film.
I always think of TLD and LTK as being mirrored in someway by CR and QOS. People were convinced CR was light years away from what had been done before. I'd argue that elements such as Le Chiffre weeping blood are straight out of old school Bond. It's the Vesper dynamic and scene wise, the ball breaking, that help it veer away from tradition. These themes were extrapolated out to form a QOS that was overly dark and quite brutal.
In a similar way I think the dark elements and brooding of Dalton in TLD were extrapolated out to form LTK.
Regards Dalton, I do think he was ahead of his time. He reminds me of performers I love, whether musicians, comedians, actors, who are comitted to their craft. They think so far ahead of everyone else that it's only in hindsight we recognise their acheivements. It's only recently, with the exploitation and overpromotion of cultural dirge that I think the general public have come to realise they do want something of quality and when pushed, will go searching for it. In the late 80's we were still spoonfed big, brash popcorn flicks, which however good, didn't leave room for an actor interested in 'character' - more importantly, an actor in a Bond film.
But we are still spoonfed naff "popcorn" flicks. For every Nolan Batman film there is a Michael Bay Transformers. Sadly the Michael Bay flicks continue to perform well financially.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, it comes down to the actor in the lead role. Can they charm audiences? I think its fair to say that viewers find Craig more engaging in the part of Bond. That's ultimately why he's been so well received (initially it was because audiences were curious after all the flack the media were giving him - but that's long died off). Dalton is more popular in hindsight but there is still a fair chunk of people who aren't that fond of him.
Of course there are still naff popcorn flicks. My point is that, in this day and age it's become clear that audiences are much more willing to accept the kind of work Dalton tried to do in the late eighties. Craig is surely testament to that? There are so many routes to market and so many avenues to become vocal about a subject that pining for action movies with some 'brain' is starting to pay off. You still have to wade through the shit to get to them but they'll become more plentiful. Skyfall should hopefully be one. This isn't a Dalton vs. Craig issue as they've tried to do similar things with the character. It's a question of timing and I maintain Dalton was simply ahead of the curve in his intentions.
I think its interesting to consider the question @TheLordFlasheart asked in his earlier post. Would Dalton be greeted with as much praise as Craig had he made his debut in 2006 rather than 1987?
After the likes of DAD I'm sure his film would be seen as an improvement quality-wise but do you think he would get the same response Craig did (i.e. seen as a "revelation"?)
I was around in 1987, and I can assure everyone that Dalton's failure to take off with audiences had nothing to do with the hard edged approach being 'ahead of its time' or whatever nonsense it is.
We were ready and waiting for a serious Bond in 1986, champing at the bit to be honest. Dalton's approach was exactly right for the time. Unfortunately Dalton failed on the big screen appeal level, simple as that.
I won't stay in this thread ebcause I appreciate what it's about, but please don't think the world was not ready for a serious Bond in 86, because it was.
Or you could ask the reverse. Would Dan have worked in 1987? If you look at the reasons for Dalton's supposed failure you could argue Dan would've faced a similar uphill struggle. It's hard to transpose actors by era and as such none of us can truly answer either question. There are so many external factors that govern success.
@NicNac - I take your point but I would argue that it's becoming ever more apparent people are reassessing his work and giving it the credit it wasn't necessarily afforded at the time. This is the age-old debate about actor vs. star and you're right that 'star' appeal (particularly for a US audience) was a big factor. Dalton to me is first and foremost an actor but supremely enigmatic.
If that was true, he wouldn't be the lowest ranking actor in most polls. Even Lazenby is ahead of him at times. I hope, this is not seen as bashing, since it is a fact and hence contradicts your assumption. But it IS appearantly so on this board. Good for him.
I do think, what happens with the Daltonites is, what some blame for example the Craig lovers for - that we stick to our appreciation, never mind what and in this case, reasons are tried to be found, why it was NOT HIM, who was responsible for not being greatly accepted, as you feel, he deserved it.
He is history and I have no reason to dislike him just for the heck of it or other reasons, but strictly spoken and also as a woman - I like ALL the other Bonds, some more then others, but he is the only one, who didn't speak to me on ANY level, because he lacked looks and the certain something, that can make up for it (like DC, who is no beauty, but for many attractive, because he oozes sexappeal and charisma). Pierce was a pretty boy, nice to look at, Moore the same plus truckloads of charme, Lazenby was handsome and Sean was handsome and charismatic. IMO - for too many, Dalton lacked all of this.
IMO, he looks better now then at that time...
Sean - not evidently the best nor the worst actor, but with film star qualities. It was enough most of the time, when he was just himself, to make the point and be convincing.
Lazenby - can't really tell
Moore - not the best actor, but also a film star, who carried himself in a way, that pleased the audiences and that didn't necessarely needed a huge ammount of acting..
Dalton - a good actor, the best to that date, which was not enough for the big screen, because ...see above. Not a film star..
Brosnan - IMO the weakest actor, but with charme and a certain nonchalance, that could carry the role for a while. More film star then actor.
Craig - the most versatile actor, Apart from Dalton, all good rely on their good looks and even though I find him incredibly attractive and quite gorgeous at times, its not a face, that brings you to your knees easily. He needs more then that to convince and its there.
In the end - he is more character actor then film star, but could be both.
Are you kidding me? If I took the advice of audience polls I'd live in a perpetual state of hell. Most polls tell me Goldfinger is the best Bond film, it's not. It's not seen as bashing, it's just a lazy argument that tells me nothing about what you actually think.
See the rest of my post. Polls are reliable to a certain dregree. maybe you wouldn't object, if he was on top. Would be understandable. If there were completely useless, then Sean wouldn't bo on top every time. So - it does speak a certain language after all.
Obviously quite a lot of people were underwhelmed by Dalts, so I cannot dispute your argument that he didn't reach a lot of people. It always seemed to me that he was particularly poorly received by women, which by the early 90s was probably a big concern for the studios, as women were becoming a more important part of the market.
All I can say is that I thought he was excellent from the first time I saw him on screen in 1987.
I'm not getting lost in a discussion about polls, let's just agree they serve no purpose other than for a PR guy to cover his ass if he makes a bad call.
Just to confirm, Moore is my favourite Bond. I'm sticking up for Dalton because this is an appreciation thread and I'm voicing my opinion on the aspects I think he brought to the role. I'm judging it based not on fact, not on figures, but on my opinion. I'm not saying I'm 100% correct, I'm offering reasons for why I think Dalton is worthy of some praise. If you look at my posts I don't compare Dalton favourably or unfavourably to anyone else, I'm basing this alone on Dalton.
@Germanlady I've never seen a poll when Lazenby is ahead of Dalton. In the polls it's normally Connery and Moore at the top, with Brosnan and Craig at either 3rd or 4th, it varies. Dalton and Lazenby are sort of the forgotten Bonds, they're always at the bottom. If polls were facts, GF would be the best film, Connery the best Bond, etc. And I know you don't agree with any of that.
Anyway, this isn't about popularity, it's a fact that some of the other Bonds are more popular. It's not about how much money he made or how he wasn't a film star, or how Craig is better (which I don't think he is but lets not get sidetracked).
This is about Dalton as Bond, and I think he was not just great, but the very best one.
=D> Thank you. I think some people need to learn the meaning of an appreciation thread.
I said, to THAT date - from 62 to his start. I say, he was better then Connery, Lazenby or Moore - as an actor, that is.
@royale - I do believe, I did give him appreciation, where I thought it was due. Acting, which is not a light one.
Connery IS the best Bond in almost every poll, so they are not completely wrong and GF as best film is a very personal feeling, even though the film is a fav for many, but certainly not No 1 for nost. I would think, that goes also to one of the Connery films.
In a way, it was about popularity, because debates were going on, why Dalton was not more popular and some here offered an opinion, why that is.
taking on Bond is always a risky undertaking and takes guts, because it can pretty much make or break you...and if you are not first and foremost after fame and money, which IMO apllies for both - Dalton and DC, but more because of the challenge to get it right etc, then it does take courage.
But then you also said he was always bottom in polls, he wasn't handsome, you liked all the Bonds except him (which you have a funny way of showing), etc. Anyway, that post I made wasn't just directed at you.
But the video you posted was pretty badass. So I forgive you ;)
A little making up gift ;)
He was and is the definitive Fleming Bond IMO. A bar set too high for most any other actor to match.
^:)^
Roger Moore's first Bond film was a mega hit and his second took significantly less. Had Roger stopped after TMWTGG, then people would say it was because he was not Connery. But it was his third film that changed the perception of him for good.
Now why did Roger's second film take far less money? Well less people went to see it and you could wrongly conclude from that, that it was because they did not like Roger in the role. But the third film proves that a little alteration and bang, the actor is fully established.
The media play a role in how a Bond is accepted. I once talked to a journalist who I criticised for saying he manipulated his subjective opinion as if everyone thought the same.
Some say because Craig is a star? Wow, how short your memory spans are.
His casting caused the most hateful gutter press backlash I have ever seen. A major newspaper ran the headline calling him James Bland. And then this same press fall over themselves to praise when word from the industry is that it is going to make a big hit?
And people are conditioned how to think. Sorry but if Dalton has no presence then neither does Craig. And I think both actors have it. Craig was better marketed than Dalton and the internet was the best weapon to garner interest for the film. Because on getting such a horrible start by the media, the film studio used clips to bypass negativity and get directly to the fans on various websites. It was guerrilla marketing that helped the film get the audience it deserves. if you beat a drum long enough people will give in.
And Craig's Bond was cleverly altered to have the bad-boy veneer which modern audiences want. Think about it.
In fact after QOS I heard plenty of talk that maybe Craig is wrong for the role as he is too miserable like Dalton. Dalton did not get the same chance like Brosnan or Craig to at least do a third.
Dalton did not fail. It was the hiatus that halted the franchise just as it was re-inventing itself. Or were the legal issues Dalton's fault too?
Dalton was the right Bond and given an outstanding script for his third film would have changed public perception. A new director seems to be the modern strategy and out of the last 7 Bond films, we have had 6 different directors. I wonder why that is?
A good trailer and people will go. I mean Shia LaBouef is a star yet ask yourself is it really true?
Anthony Hopkins was not seen as a star either until Silence Of The Lambs, but he was all along.
And some credit the public with intelligence but people often repeat what they have been told. I have many a time changed a Dalton haters perception and it works. Most hate Dalton because the media did not warm to him and put the knife in his back after he left the role. The media caused the negative perception. Things like the moronic Empire review where the reviewer deserves Le Chiffre's chair for 25 minutes. It's nothing personal, just business!
Oh no! Here comes Germanlady. Okay, the world economy crashed because of Dalton too!
:-)) :-)) :-))
Hail Dalton =D>