The Film Debate Thread - #5: 'Zodiac'

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  • Posts: 7,653
    I agree with the idea that ZODIAC is more a movie about one mans obsession about the murderer than an actual solution of the identity of the Zodiac killer. Robert Graysmith was just as much of a victim as the actual victims of the killer.

    That said I have never really enjoyed the movie in the sense as SOTL or 7 have given me a great movie, which I consider the two great serial killer movies (with a honorable mention of Copycat with Sigourney Weaver).
    I also find that DIRTY HARRY did a much better job with the figure of the Zodiac killer.
  • Just a quick one, the Zodiac code, was it truly broken?

    And a note on the film, I really did feel quite unnerved by the atmosphere of the whole film, I couldn't sleep the night I watched it.

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I am not saying the film is about anything like that. Just like Apocalypse Now, it is a war film that is more about the characters and how they are affected both physically and mentally over the course of the film than anything else. The great thing about the film is that it doesn't really pull you one way or the other. Sure, it will at times give direct scenes to us showing the victims saying who shot them or times where Robert has an a-ha moment, but at the end of the film it never says definitively who the killer is. It is more like the film gives us the evidence and we make of it what we will. While Allen is the main focus/suspect of the film, there are moments where not points to him being the Zodiac, and there are moments where other people are put under suspicion as well, like the man who did up the film posters that Robert visits.
    Just a quick one, the Zodiac code, was it truly broken?

    And a note on the film, I really did feel quite unnerved by the atmosphere of the whole film, I couldn't sleep the night I watched it.

    I know, right?! The film's atmosphere is amazing, as it is with all of Fincher's films, Se7en and The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo especially. Fincher's shots are brilliant, and the cinematography for the film (I don't know if he has the same cinematographer for all his films) helps to really give a haunting life to his visuals. The fog, the darkness, all of it adds up to create an amazing setting. San Francisco becomes a character itself, as the Zodiac killer tightens his grip around the city.

    I love that in each onscreen murder there are different actors playing Zodiac. Each actor was chosen based on descriptions supplied by those that either survived the individual attacks or saw someone suspicious around the location of the crime scene; by the time the film is over we have quite a few different Zodiac interpretations. I think that was a brilliantly clever way of handling each case, and shows further evidence that the film isn't biased to any suspect and that further adds to the mystery of who Zodiac could be.
  • I love that in each onscreen murder there are different actors playing Zodiac. Each actor was chosen based on descriptions supplied by those that either survived the individual attacks or saw someone suspicious around the location of the crime scene;

    Yes, unreliable narrators everywhere... The real person played by Robert Downey Jr claimed he never met the author/narrator at the newspaper's offices, you know :)
    I think that was a brilliantly clever way of handling each case, and shows further evidence that the film isn't biased to any suspect and that further adds to the mystery of who Zodiac could be.

    On the other hand, the hero's opinion is completely biased towards Allen, as is the book on which the movie was based, and to me the only suspect talked about in the movie is Allen, with the boots scene a strong choice to say to the viewer 'ok it's him, but bureaucrats won't let us have him'.

  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    While I think Se7en is the definitive serial killer film in the thriller sense, I find it better than SOTL, for me Zodiac is Fincher's masterpiece. It's the film which saw him come of age as a film maker and truly produce a work of art.

    The direction, the performance, cinematography and score are all exemplary. I remember at the time that quite a few critics thought Gyllenhall seemed out of his depth in the role, quite interesting observation when Graysmith is supposed to exactly be like that. He's a newspaper cartoonist that becomes obsessed with the Zodiac and is clearly out of his depth and Jake plays it beautifully.

    The rest of the cast are excellent, RDJ is suitably colourful as Paul Avery and Ruffalo has never been better as Dave Toschi, great support from Anthony Edwards and actors that make up the rest of the roster all hit their marks more than competently. Also it's an example where C.G.I is used to enhance and tell the story not overwhelm and take over.

    I'd agree it is more about one man's obsession than the actual Zodiac killer but to suggest a fictional cop thriller is a better examination of the Zodiac is ridiculous, Dirty Harry is a terrific film and Andrew Robinson is brilliant as the killer who has been written with the Zodiac killer in mind but Fincher's film really gets into the details and feels more like All The President's Men than a serial killer thriller. Fincher had made the definitive statement already he didn't want to do it again and Zodiac is pretty far removed from his 2nd film anyway.

    I can't really give this film enough praise, this should be one of those films that just grows in appreciation and totally transcends it's initial poor box office reception, just like that other masterful journalistic film by Michael Mann The Insider, ignored by the Academy, I doubt Fincher will top this, if he doesn't make another film as good as Zodiac it won't be for lack of trying.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    And the film handles the passing of time and the rises and falls of each of the central characters so well. "Hurdy Gurdy Man" by Donovan bookends the film so beautifully, sending us out in the credits on a chilling note. What was originally a psychedelic tribute to the 60s hippie-culture is used expertly as a disturbingly haunting song perfect for the film's depiction of the fear the Zodiac put over the San Francisco Bay area for decades on end.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    Great thoughts, everyone, really love what you've all come up with. And it's amazing to see another Donovan fan, @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    What is your opinion on the film, and the impact of it (after we see the case unravel over time) in general, @Creasy47?
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    edited March 2013 Posts: 40,976
    In all honesty, while I remember certain snippets of the film - and I know a lot about the history of the Zodiac killer - I don't recall too much from this film, and it's sad that I've seen it once: in theaters. It deserves another viewing by my eyes, but yes, I do agree with almost everyone else that this isn't so much focusing on the history of the Zodiac's terror as it does Graysmith's account and focus on the events. It's a fantastic film, I love how it goes over everything that happens - a lot like 'Zero Dark Thirty' - and I enjoy how they handled the ending of the film. Did they not end it with Mageau's fingering of Allen being the Zodiac killer, and then it posted the future of the case in text?
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited March 2013 Posts: 28,694
    Creasy47 wrote:
    In all honesty, while I remember certain snippets of the film - and I know a lot about the history of the Zodiac killer - I don't recall too much from this film, and it's sad that I've seen it once: in theaters. It deserves another viewing by my eyes, but yes, I do agree with almost everyone else that this isn't so much focusing on the history of the Zodiac's terror as it does Graysmith's account and focus on the events. It's a fantastic film, I love how it goes over everything that happens - a lot like 'Zero Dark Thirty' - and I enjoy how they handled the ending of the film. Did they not end it with Mageau's fingering of Allen being the Zodiac killer, and then it posted the future of the case in text?

    Yes, that is how it ends.

    I watched part of a documentary on the killings that featured Mageau, and I have to say: he just seemed a bit..."off." It could be that he experienced brain damage from the wounds attributed to the shots he took from the Zodiac's gun, or maybe the bullet that entered his ear and went out his jaw affected his speech. Here he is if anyone is interested, starting at around the 19 minutes 40 seconds mark. Make of him what you will:

  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    Once Mageau cuts in, it really is hard to understand what he's talking about. I would say the biggest contributor to that is the possibility of, as you said, brain trauma from the damage he received from that bullet.

    And if Mageau was brought in at such a later time, that may have affected his ability to judge what this shooter in the dark looked like years and years previous. Also, the stamp DNA plays in with it, as well.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    Creasy47 wrote:
    Great thoughts, everyone, really love what you've all come up with. And it's amazing to see another Donovan fan, @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7.

    I don't think Hurdy Gurdy Man can be heard the same again after Fincher's use of it in Zodiac, incidentally British film maker Ben Wheatley uses a cover of that very song to a similar brutal effect in one of the best film's of last year, the utterly hilariously brilliant Sightseers.


  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Shardlake wrote:
    Creasy47 wrote:
    Great thoughts, everyone, really love what you've all come up with. And it's amazing to see another Donovan fan, @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7.

    I don't think Hurdy Gurdy Man can be heard the same again after Fincher's use of it in Zodiac, incidentally British film maker Ben Wheatley uses a cover of that very song to a similar brutal effect in one of the best film's of last year, the utterly hilariously brilliant Sightseers.


    Yeah, Fincher doesn't pull a Kubrick, but it does change how you look at the song after watching the film. I must say though, that song is creepy without Zodiac. There is just something haunting about it that gets you.
  • BIg B you should try watching it without wearing your fav dress...

    Interestingly, the letters at one place: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Zodiac_Killer_letters
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    Very interesting read, those letters, @forgotmyusername.
  • Posts: 12,526
    Facinating movie, well addictive!
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,217
    SaintMark wrote:
    I agree with the idea that ZODIAC is more a movie about one mans obsession about the murderer than an actual solution of the identity of the Zodiac killer. Robert Graysmith was just as much of a victim as the actual victims of the killer.

    That said I have never really enjoyed the movie in the sense as SOTL or 7 have given me a great movie, which I consider the two great serial killer movies (with a honorable mention of Copycat with Sigourney Weaver).
    I also find that DIRTY HARRY did a much better job with the figure of the Zodiac killer.

    I have an issue of Cinefex that details the recreating of the 1970's San Francisco; Dirty Harry was used extensively as a reference for the films visual style.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    @talos7, that's very cool, I never knew that.
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