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Bond fandom and religion
This is one of those topics where people could get their backs up but I'm curious about it...
Back on alt.fan.james.bond there was a member who was a very conservative born-again Christian. I was quite surprised that he was such a huge Bond fan, and I asked - respectfully - how he reconciled his religion with the content of the Bond films and with Bond's behaviour. The pre-marital sex (in fact, trying to have as much as possible!), the violence, the quests for revenge...this would seem to me to be incompatible with the beliefs of certain religions.
So for those here who are religious, I'm genuinely curious - what are your thoughts on that? I realize that some churches have more liberal views than others (the church down my street proudly marries gay couples) but I'd rather hear from those who are more conservatively religious.
Back on alt.fan.james.bond there was a member who was a very conservative born-again Christian. I was quite surprised that he was such a huge Bond fan, and I asked - respectfully - how he reconciled his religion with the content of the Bond films and with Bond's behaviour. The pre-marital sex (in fact, trying to have as much as possible!), the violence, the quests for revenge...this would seem to me to be incompatible with the beliefs of certain religions.
So for those here who are religious, I'm genuinely curious - what are your thoughts on that? I realize that some churches have more liberal views than others (the church down my street proudly marries gay couples) but I'd rather hear from those who are more conservatively religious.
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Comments
I dont know - it seems pretty much the raison d'être for some of the most popular contemporary religions to me. Even the the sex is pretty popular if you're a Catholic priest or an Islamic martyr.
As an agnostic who isn't sure that "God" exists, how do you determine what is "against" unless you are listening to others preaching that? These same people would like to bring back the old times and burn people like me at the stake.
To answer the original question: Bond is a work of fiction. Would I approve of a real lifestyle like that? Probably not. But Bond is escapism, and anyone that shuns the franchise because of its "sinful" nature probably can't tell fantasy from reality.
A good friend of mine belonged to an extremely conservative born again Christian family and their entertainment choices were very limited. Anything that was considered to "celebrate" an immoral lifestyle, or that didn't show the consequences of it (hello, Hayes Production Code!) were not allowed. Of course the Bond films were considered wicked and sinful, and the mother was very upset that the films brainwashed young boys into thinking that violence and pre-marital sex were acceptable (interestingly, the family was pro-death penalty and pro-war). So I associate that type of thinking with staunch religious people; that's why I find it odd if those people watch films that glorify things that they think are wrong.
Of course, I've also met a lot of people who practice buffet-style religion - you pick what you want and then just ignore the rest (how they choose what they can ignore in the bible and what they must follow was always a mystery to me - their criteria seemed to be just "I want to be able to do that so it must be okay!"). An old co-worker of mine fit into that category and he was one of the biggest Bond fans I've ever met. He justified the films by saying "Well, he fights evil so they're okay to watch!".
Doesn't that pretty much sum up people who believe in God anyway?
So that's the mistake I've been making all these years - hitting next just as Bond gets into bed with a girl. If only I'd known the Bond films were packed with sex I wouldn't have had to waste so much time hunting down Evas jubblies in The Dreamers and such like.
This is interesting to me - so you know that the character wants to have pre-marital sex, you know that he *engages* in pre-marital sex, but as long as you don't see it happening then it's okay? I would think the fact that you're watching a character who does that would be the problem, not that you just don't watch him do it.
Again, if you're taught that pre-marital sex is wrong (apologies if you're not) then why watch the films that not only include a lot of it but show it to be cool and fun? I do mean that as a respectful question, I understand that it's fiction and a wish fulfillment fantasy but doesn't it undermine what you're taught in church?
No, it does not.
That was low and unnecessary.
The thing is, what one understands to be right and wrong and then choosing to act on either of the 2 are different things.
James Bond isn't real but in this fictional entertainment where he's the protagonist, regardless of what he's doing and how he's doing it, doesn't automatically re-calibrate my own knowledge or understanding of what's right or wrong. Jame's Bond is a cool character and he has qualities that the nature of many people desire and admire. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging or watching it imo. The problem only starts if I decide to pick up a gun and start shooting people. At the end of the day it's what people choose to act on.....and James Bond? Have you read the bible?? The bible, particularly in the old testament has merciless and brutal acts going on in there and I'm just talking about the good guys. Watching James Bond is the least of anyone's problems.
Just to say, guys, let's try to avoid any sort of personal attacks that some may feel is just spiky and provocative, but others may well find offensive. Thanks.
And, to add to the debate myself, for me this pretty much sums it up...
P.S- Sex is fun! I highly recommend it and assure you that you won't be going to a "dark and hot" place.
@TheWizardofIce: Seriously man, does everything I say have to follow with a rude re-buttal from you? The thread called for sharing about your faith, so I did. Sorry if my lifestyle doesn't match yours.
@thelordflasheart: I do respect your question, yes, and I would wonder the same thing if I was on your end. See, the thing is, I watch the other parts of the Bond movies, but skip over those. With those out of the way, it's like there's none in it at all. I do not condone what is implied or showed in the movies, no. However, I avoid it and skip past it because, yes, as you said, in church it is frowned upon, so I put it out of my mind by not watching it.
@doubleoego: Exactly, I know that these things are wrong, so I will not act on them. The fact that it is out there and I know about it cannot be helped, in fact, that just makes it all the more evident what problems are caused by engaging in activities as such, and would further drive me from it.
And he covets sooooooo many goods from his "neighbors".
Nothing personal against you sir you can believe whatever you choose to. But whilst I unfortunately live in a society that orders me to 'respect' people's preposterous beliefs I do at least live in a society where I can say what I think about them so respect the fact that my lifestyle doesn't match yours either.
Just be thankful that for 2000 years your beliefs have not been challenged and you have got away (quite literally a lot of the time) with murder. Just look at the people who believed the earth was flat? Eminent and respected scientists in their day and where are they now? Anyone who came out with such drivel would be laughed at.
The people I feel sorry for are the Jedis. At the UK census in 2001 more people wrote Jedi than Sikh and they achieved the requisite percentage to be recognised as a religion. So what did the UK government do? Just changed the form in 2011. Instead of a box to write your religion there were just tickboxes for all the established religions and one box saying 'other' for anyone else. Constitutional problem gone along with the Jedis right to be recognised.
Anyway this debate is digressing from the point of the thread. As an atheist and a hedonist Bond fits in just fine with my lifestyle so I don't have any moral decisions to make over worrying about burning in hell if I enjoy Rog pushing Sandor off the roof or George shagging 3 birds in 10 minutes.
Vodka, caviar, Rolexes, Aston Martins, champagne, gambling and lashings of sex and violence - what's not to like? Honestly if heaven is bereft of all of these things why would anyone want to go?
As Algernon puts in so succinctly 'Good to see you Mr Bond. Now youre on this I hope we're going to see some gratuitous sex and violence'. Amen to that brethren.
I am a Christian and I have no problem with the Bond films or novels. I have been a Bond fan since my teens. Bond is a fun fantasy. Jackdagger put it pretty well. I also liked the Wiley Coyote comment from Licensetoforum. I know fantasy from reality and I rather like my Bond as just that: pure fun escapism.
I probably won't click on this thread again, as I see it will continue to degenerate into bad mouthing other people's points of view and/or religion.
To be honest, I think you're claiming too much here. Why wouldn't atheists be allowed to say that they think all religion is short-sited and hypocritical? It's the religious who take it personal, whereas atheists have had to deal with such attitudes towards them for years, ney, centuries. And it has cost many of them their lives.
Not that I'm advocating any hard discussion here, but I do think many religious people turn into rather easily offended people as soon as the subject is touched. I haven't seen any personal attacks, only geniously curious questions about hypocracy.
Duly note though, that whenever religion comes to these boards this kind of debate is likely to happen, becouse of said points.
It's a shame that @4EverBonded has left the discussion because this is exactly what I'm trying to understand. You say that Bond is a fun fantasy, fun escapism. But why would a staunch Christian think that? How is pre-marital sex, violence, and revenge a fun fantasy when those are all things that you're taught are wrong and should not do yourself?
I'm not saying that someone who is Christian - or any other religion - is being wrong or hypocritical by liking Bond. I'm just trying to understand how they can be in church or praying and say "Yes, pre-marital sex is wrong and sinful!" and then enjoy watching a character for whom it is a raison d'etre...wouldn't Bond be exactly the kind of character that you would avoid? I just can't wrap my head around how a character who lives his (fictional) life in almost the opposite way that someone would think that he's supposed to becomes a fantasy figure...that implies that someone would like to live that lifestyle themselves (or implicitly condones it).
I apologize if I'm not expressing myself well or phrasing the question in a confusing way...
Very well said Commander.
Lordflasheart hits the nail on the head. 4everBonded states in the quote above that 'Bond is a fun fantasy'. I agree with that statement but I fail to see how he can reconcile the dichotomy between thinking something is fun yet it also goes against his entire ethos and beliefs.
As an atheist my creed forces me to operate from a position of logic and I don't have the luxury of being able to pick and choose which parts of the bible suit my lifestyle.
I would be impressed if any religious person can come on here and defend charges of hypocracy as from my knowledge of the bible and religious doctrine (and this is from an ex Catholic altar boy in case you think I don't know what I am talking about) I fail to see how all the enjoyable things about Bond - the sex, the violence, the fine living - is compatible with the teachings of Christ.
My apolgies Madam (over mistaking you for a chap but certainly not for any derogatory comments about religion).
Well now, from what we know according to the book of Revelation regarding John's visions of heaven, and what Jesus taught in the four gospels, heaven isn't meant to be just some place where everything that makes you happy is there waiting for you. That's not the point of wanting to go to heaven, just to get what you want in abundance. It's really about just being there with all the believers and with God, and having never-ending joy and peace. Many of those things you listed wouldn't be there because they cause unhappiness more than half the time, and according to Scripture, heaven is absent of all grief or unhappiness.
Might not be what you think mate ;)
Anyway, my religion is pretty simple: Bruce Lee is Gods son, he was sent down to Earth to kick arse and eventaully died, so someday he could return, form a team with Timothy Dalton and launch a 2 man war against Justin Bieber and his evil.
Seriously now though, I guess I'm agnostic. I think there could be a God, but equally there could be giant Aliens or a talking dog or something, I don't know, but I'll find out when I die.
More on topic, my Grandad in Jamaica is a big christian and he's a big Bond fan, and a fan of lots of other stuff I thought he would be against like violent action films, I actually asked him about it one day and he said that it was fantasy, that it wasn't real, so why should it bother him? He was a bit pissed off when I joined the army though.