SKYFALL: FANS' REACTIONS - GUARANTEED SPOILERS

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  • edited February 2013 Posts: 12,837
    He makes a good point about Batman too. And now I'm going to make a Bond/Batman comparison (please bare with me though).

    I think SF is similar to TDKR in that it's a great film with a fairly weak story. SF's acting, cinematography, etc, was brilliant. But the story was packed with plot holes. Same with TDKR.

    Pretty good films but if you stop and think about Silva's stupidly complex plan (detailed in the article I posted) or Bane's pointless and idiotic plan ("I will cause a revolution in Gotham by threatening to destroy the city with a nuclear bomb, which I will do anyway in a month, all so my hot girlfriend can get revenge on Batman for killing her dad") then the stories sort of fall apart.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    Next you'll be saying Drax's plan had holes in it...
  • That's Moonraker though. It's the one where Bond goes to space and Jaws falls in love. Unlike SF, it's really not meant to be taken seriously.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited February 2013 Posts: 28,694
    That's Moonraker though. It's the one where Bond goes to space and Jaws falls in love. Unlike SF, it's really not meant to be taken seriously.

    So if Skyfall said "DON'T TAKE ME SERIOUSLY, PLEASE!" before the film began you wouldn't have an issue with it? Don't see much logic in that, to be fair.

    It's a Bond film, so it is obvious that you are going for an escapist ride and nothing close to reality. It's expected of you to suspend your disbelief when you purchase your ticket.
  • I see plenty of logic in it.

    SF isn't trying to be a cheesey blockbuster like MR. It's trying to be this adult thriller. It takes the story seriously and therefore thingslike plot holes are more of an issue.

    Of course there's no such thing as a realistic Bond movie but there's being OTT and then there's having plot holes.

    EG- There's a difference between Stromberg having an underwater base and Silva relying on Bond capturing him via tracking down Patrice from bullets in his shoulders then getting a briefcase full of money which leads him to Severine and finally to Silva's island.
  • edited February 2013 Posts: 2,081
    --- Silva relying on Bond capturing him via tracking down Patrice from bullets in his shoulders then getting a briefcase full of money which leads him to Severine and finally to Silva's island.

    Why would anyone think Silva planned it like that? :-O
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    The plots of movies like SF, TDKR, Avatar & Titanic look pretty stupid on paper, it takes really good directing & loads of misdirecting minutia to make the audiences forget they're watching nonsense. :))
  • Tuulia wrote:
    --- Silva relying on Bond capturing him via tracking down Patrice from bullets in his shoulders then getting a briefcase full of money which leads him to Severine and finally to Silva's island.

    Why would anyone think Silva planned it like that? :-O

    Maybe he didn't plan it like that deliberately but he wants Bond to capture him. He doesn't leave any clues or anything. So I'm not sure how he thought Bond would find him unless he somehow foresaw Bond tracking Patrice using bullet fragments, etc.

    See, the plot doesn't explain this. This is a plot hole. But like @chrisisall said, it shows that the movie is strong since it manages to be a good film and to make you enjoy it despite the plot having holes.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    But like @chrisisall said, it shows that the movie is strong since it manages to be a good film and to make you enjoy it despite the plot having holes.
    Yeah, IMO SF is very much like Avatar in that way.

    But, umm, can we go small on the next one? A FYEO or TLD kind of flick? After the financial success of SF I somehow doubt it though. Like the SUX in Robocop, BIG is better!
    ;)
  • Posts: 2,081
    Tuulia wrote:
    --- Silva relying on Bond capturing him via tracking down Patrice from bullets in his shoulders then getting a briefcase full of money which leads him to Severine and finally to Silva's island.

    Why would anyone think Silva planned it like that? :-O

    Maybe he didn't plan it like that deliberately but he wants Bond to capture him. He doesn't leave any clues or anything. So I'm not sure how he thought Bond would find him unless he somehow foresaw Bond tracking Patrice using bullet fragments, etc.

    See, the plot doesn't explain this. This is a plot hole. But like @chrisisall said, it shows that the movie is strong since it manages to be a good film and to make you enjoy it despite the plot having holes.

    Of course he didn't plan it like that, no maybes about that. :) He was clever, but hardly psychic. Things went the way they went, not because they were planned to go exactly like that - he just adapted like clever people do. Bond might have died several times over before he got anywhere near Silva, so there's no reason to assume that Silva's plan relied specifically on Bond, never mind on those rare, traceable fragments in him. Surely for some months Silva assumed like everyone else that Bond was dead anyway, and so he must have had something else planned, probably with some variations depending on how things developed. That would actually make sense. But there was no need to go into that, was there? (Well, I see no reason for that, anyway.) Bond survived and then the events developed with him in it, and therefore in Silva's plans.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    Tuulia wrote:
    Bond might have died several times over before he got anywhere near Silva, so there's no reason to assume that Silva's plan relied specifically on Bond, never mind on those rare, traceable fragments in him. Surely for some months Silva assumed like everyone else that Bond was dead anyway, and so he must have had something else planned, probably with some variations depending on how things developed. That would actually make sense. But there was no need to go into that, was there?
    Wow, it's like I'm looking in a mirror here! :))
    I have rationalized many nonsensical Star Trek Time-travel episodes I love in the same way! Not goofing on you, seriously, when we love stuff, we FIND a way to make it make sense.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    chrisisall wrote:
    Tuulia wrote:
    Bond might have died several times over before he got anywhere near Silva, so there's no reason to assume that Silva's plan relied specifically on Bond, never mind on those rare, traceable fragments in him. Surely for some months Silva assumed like everyone else that Bond was dead anyway, and so he must have had something else planned, probably with some variations depending on how things developed. That would actually make sense. But there was no need to go into that, was there?
    Wow, it's like I'm looking in a mirror here! :))
    I have rationalized many nonsensical Star Trek Time-travel episodes I love in the same way! Not goofing on you, seriously, when we love stuff, we FIND a way to make it make sense.

    This is true. Even I must admit that I let my fandom blind me often. :\">
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    Even I must admit that I let my fandom blind me often. :\">
    If we love a film or TV show, that's enough. The rest is sophistic banter to amuse ourselves or reinforce our love (or sometimes dislike) of said projects.
    It's all good.

    Like TB or TLD.
    :)) ^:)^ :P
  • Tuulia wrote:
    --- Silva relying on Bond capturing him via tracking down Patrice from bullets in his shoulders then getting a briefcase full of money which leads him to Severine and finally to Silva's island.

    Why would anyone think Silva planned it like that? :-O

    Maybe he didn't plan it like that deliberately but he wants Bond to capture him. He doesn't leave any clues or anything. So I'm not sure how he thought Bond would find him unless he somehow foresaw Bond tracking Patrice using bullet fragments, etc.

    See, the plot doesn't explain this. This is a plot hole. But like @chrisisall said, it shows that the movie is strong since it manages to be a good film and to make you enjoy it despite the plot having holes.

    I don't understand how this is a plot hole. At no point in the film does Silva, or anyone else, state that the plan was for Bond to find him. Silva was prepared if he was captured by *any* agent, not just Bond. He was pleased by his interaction with Bond because of their similarities, but I think he would have played it that way no matter who came after him...


  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    At no point in the film does Silva, or anyone else, state that the plan was for Bond to find him.
    But who else could have?
  • edited February 2013 Posts: 2,081
    chrisisall wrote:
    Tuulia wrote:
    Bond might have died several times over before he got anywhere near Silva, so there's no reason to assume that Silva's plan relied specifically on Bond, never mind on those rare, traceable fragments in him. Surely for some months Silva assumed like everyone else that Bond was dead anyway, and so he must have had something else planned, probably with some variations depending on how things developed. That would actually make sense. But there was no need to go into that, was there?
    Wow, it's like I'm looking in a mirror here! :))
    I have rationalized many nonsensical Star Trek Time-travel episodes I love in the same way! Not goofing on you, seriously, when we love stuff, we FIND a way to make it make sense.

    Oh, and I went :)) at the plot interpretation that thelivingroyale outlined above, since it made no sense to me whatsoever to assume that Silva would have planned it like that - since he obviously couldn't have. To put it another way: it also seems people FIND a way to NOT make it make sense. ;)
    Tuulia wrote:
    --- Silva relying on Bond capturing him via tracking down Patrice from bullets in his shoulders then getting a briefcase full of money which leads him to Severine and finally to Silva's island.

    Why would anyone think Silva planned it like that? :-O

    Maybe he didn't plan it like that deliberately but he wants Bond to capture him. He doesn't leave any clues or anything. So I'm not sure how he thought Bond would find him unless he somehow foresaw Bond tracking Patrice using bullet fragments, etc.

    See, the plot doesn't explain this. This is a plot hole. But like @chrisisall said, it shows that the movie is strong since it manages to be a good film and to make you enjoy it despite the plot having holes.

    I don't understand how this is a plot hole. At no point in the film does Silva, or anyone else, state that the plan was for Bond to find him. Silva was prepared if he was captured by *any* agent, not just Bond. He was pleased by his interaction with Bond because of their similarities, but I think he would have played it that way no matter who came after him...

    Well, that's what I was trying to say as well. Bond was supposed to be dead anyway, so of course Silva had to be prepared for whoever came after him.

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    Tuulia wrote:
    To put it another way: it also seems people FIND a way to not make it make sense. ;)
    Touché !
    ;)
  • @thelordflashheart But he had no way of letting any agent find him. If Bond hadn't been shot in the PTS then he wouldn't have found Patrice and he wouldn't have gotten close to Silva.

    The best thing to assume here is that he had some sort of plan but then found out Bond had found Patrice and thought he'd see if he could track him down himself, to see if he was as good as Silva. But since I have to assume things and make up a theory myself to explain it, I think that counts as a plot hole.

    Saying that though I'm not sure why Silva went to the trouble of getting himself captured anyway. He could've just snuck into the country (I'm sure a man like him could've got himself a fake passport) and then gone to the hearing, he obviously knew when it was. Then I could argue with myself and say it was to upload the virus to MI6 but I can't remember him gaining much from that other than it opening his cell.
  • Posts: 3,327
    @thelordflashheart But he had no way of letting any agent find him. If Bond hadn't been shot in the PTS then he wouldn't have found Patrice and he wouldn't have gotten close to Silva.

    The best thing to assume here is that he had some sort of plan but then found out Bond had found Patrice and thought he'd see if he could track him down himself, to see if he was as good as Silva. But since I have to assume things and make up a theory myself to explain it, I think that counts as a plot hole.

    Saying that though I'm not sure why Silva went to the trouble of getting himself captured anyway. He could've just snuck into the country (I'm sure a man like him could've got himself a fake passport) and then gone to the hearing, he obviously knew when it was. Then I could argue with myself and say it was to upload the virus to MI6 but I can't remember him gaining much from that other than it opening his cell.
    Wasn't Silva's only real goal to meet back up with M? Therefore I can understand him getting captured.

  • @thelordflashheart But he had no way of letting any agent find him. If Bond hadn't been shot in the PTS then he wouldn't have found Patrice and he wouldn't have gotten close to Silva.

    The best thing to assume here is that he had some sort of plan but then found out Bond had found Patrice and thought he'd see if he could track him down himself, to see if he was as good as Silva. But since I have to assume things and make up a theory myself to explain it, I think that counts as a plot hole.

    Saying that though I'm not sure why Silva went to the trouble of getting himself captured anyway. He could've just snuck into the country (I'm sure a man like him could've got himself a fake passport) and then gone to the hearing, he obviously knew when it was. Then I could argue with myself and say it was to upload the virus to MI6 but I can't remember him gaining much from that other than it opening his cell.
    Wasn't Silva's only real goal to meet back up with M? Therefore I can understand him getting captured.

    Hmmm, yeah maybe he wanted to talk to her before he died. That would explain it although surely he could've gone about it differently.

    Could he not have made just done his speech at the courthouse before he started shooting the place up, instead of getting himself captured just to speak to M?
  • Posts: 2,081
    In other words why wasn't it a different movie? The same could be said about any movie - why didn't they do this instead of that. There are always alternatives, if you want a different story. Personally I don't think it's a plot hole if alternative story lines are not explained in the film, and I didn't feel I needed to try and patch holes while watching it. Why make it more complicated than it is? Why think that Patrice was the only possible link and a way for Bond or anyone else to find Silva? If he wanted to be found he was going to be found one way or another. Of course Silva could have gone about it all differently, but he didn't. Also, Patrice might have failed in his initial mission. Surely Silva wouldn't have then just abandoned his whole plan concerning M. Or Bond might have gotten killed in Turkey or Shanghai or Macao. And so on. Silva would have done something different. One could go on imagining alternative plots as long as one wants to - to any movie, really. I think I'll have something to eat now instead. :)
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    The bottom line is, it's all too linear and convenient. For anyone going in expecting some genuinely interesting twists and turns, as I was after the script hype, it didn't deliver. The moment I knew how it was going to pan out was when M receives the 'think on your sins' message. It was quite clear to me at this point that Silva (or the unknown villain) was capable of doing unbelievable things, quite literally. This is when I went into suspension of disbelief mode, something I wasn't expecting I'd have to do, but knew that unless I did, I'd probably not buy the rest of it.
  • RC7 wrote:
    The bottom line is, it's all too linear and convenient. For anyone going in expecting some genuinely interesting twists and turns, as I was after the script hype, it didn't deliver. The moment I knew how it was going to pan out was when M receives the 'think on your sins' message. It was quite clear to me at this point that Silva (or the unknown villain) was capable of doing unbelievable things, quite literally. This is when I went into suspension of disbelief mode, something I wasn't expecting I'd have to do, but knew that unless I did, I'd probably not buy the rest of it.

    Exactly.

    I'm not saying that I would've liked the film better if Silva had followed my much better plan, in fact it probably would've been a pretty crap film.

    I think I was wrong though and plot holes might be the wrong way of describing it. It's not plot holes, it's just sloppy script writing. It's very entertaining but Silva's plan is, like you said, all too convinient.

    Like I said, great film, meh plot.
  • Posts: 2,081
    Like I said, great film, meh plot.

    Just imagine a great plot, meh film... Now that would be really frustrating. :P

  • Tuulia wrote:
    Like I said, great film, meh plot.

    Just imagine a great plot, meh film... Now that would be really frustrating. :P

    Haha, yeah that would be worse. That's how I class FYEO, I really like the story but the film as a whole is just average to me.
  • Posts: 3,327
    Tuulia wrote:
    Like I said, great film, meh plot.

    Just imagine a great plot, meh film... Now that would be really frustrating. :P

    Haha, yeah that would be worse. That's how I class FYEO, I really like the story but the film as a whole is just average to me.
    I can see what you mean there. Great script in FYEO, it uses tons of Fleming material, yet occassionally the direction is a little lacklustre.

    It's definitely one of Moore's best though.

  • Posts: 3,327
    RC7 wrote:
    The bottom line is, it's all too linear and convenient. For anyone going in expecting some genuinely interesting twists and turns, as I was after the script hype, it didn't deliver. The moment I knew how it was going to pan out was when M receives the 'think on your sins' message. It was quite clear to me at this point that Silva (or the unknown villain) was capable of doing unbelievable things, quite literally. This is when I went into suspension of disbelief mode, something I wasn't expecting I'd have to do, but knew that unless I did, I'd probably not buy the rest of it.

    I think probably the biggest twist, or surprise, to most people would have been M's death at the end, although Severine's death genuinely shocked me too - I really didn't expect that. The rest of the story is linear as you said - then again, I don't know many Bond films that aren't.

    The only really big shocks or twists I can think of in the franchise are Tracey's death, Vesper's betrayal, and M's death.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    RC7 wrote:
    The bottom line is, it's all too linear and convenient. For anyone going in expecting some genuinely interesting twists and turns, as I was after the script hype, it didn't deliver. The moment I knew how it was going to pan out was when M receives the 'think on your sins' message. It was quite clear to me at this point that Silva (or the unknown villain) was capable of doing unbelievable things, quite literally. This is when I went into suspension of disbelief mode, something I wasn't expecting I'd have to do, but knew that unless I did, I'd probably not buy the rest of it.

    I think probably the biggest twist, or surprise, to most people would have been M's death at the end, although Severine's death genuinely shocked me too - I really didn't expect that. The rest of the story is linear as you said - then again, I don't know many Bond films that aren't.

    The only really big shocks or twists I can think of in the franchise are Tracey's death, Vesper's betrayal, and M's death.

    No I didn't expect Severine's death either. The problem with it was that she was pretty superfluous. Her death didn't shape the plot in any way. Neither did M's as it was so late on. I agree on the old films, but I thought they were supposed to be raising the bar with the Craig movies. In hindsight, I think the abundance of 'fantastic script' comments, were actually just people thinking M's death = good script.
  • edited February 2013 Posts: 12,837
    Severine's death surprised me. I thought maybe she might turn out to be a sacrifical lamb but because she'd only been on screen for 10 minutes or so her death really did shock me.

    But I predicted M's death before I saw the movie. I knew that's what the "big hook" would be.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    edited February 2013 Posts: 11,139
    I knew Sevarine was going to die from the moment Bond revealed those goons weren't her bodyguards. What did surprise me was, that I was expecting her to one, have more screen time and two, have a scenery chewing role. Heck, I think she has maybe 90 seconds more screen time than cigar girl from TWINE.
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