DC Comics Cinematic Universe (2013 - present)

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  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited February 2018 Posts: 8,231

    Alfred deleted scene.

    Why they thought removing the extra Superman scenes was a good idea, I'll never understand. It would have at least made me smile that extra bit more. Cavill looks great in that new, more saturated suit. And seeing him smile after BvS is so nice. These films were always supposed to be Superman's story.

    I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND THE LOGIC.

    Myself and @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 have covered this quite extensively above, but the more I think about it, the more disgusted I am at how Snyder was treated by WB. So, the timeline now is that once principal on Justice League was finished -

    - Snyder was fired and wasn't able to finish his version of the film. Reshoots, etc.

    - His dismissal was then kept under wraps, in order to keep negative press away.

    - Whedon was then approached to retool most of the film (under the guise of helping Zack "inject more humour into the reshoots") far earlier than the public was made aware.

    - Until, of course, the death of Snyder's daughter. Which gave WB a way out when it came to exposing themselves to negative backlash. "Zack will step away from Justice League to be with his family."

    - Whedon is publically unveiled as the guy to help Zack "finish his vision", but then continues on to change roughly 30-40% of the film, making it a Snyder film in name only.

    - Justice League is released. Snyder still takes most of the flak from oblivious internet lunatics.


    Am I the only person who finds that absolutely disgusting? Do Warner Bros. think we are idiots?

    http://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/wb-disappointed-ben-affleck-batman/

    A fine example of how out of touch Warner Bros. is with regards their expectations and their attitude towards actually meeting those expectations.

    How can one be expected to "RDJ this thing" when the material doesn't allow you to?

    Every article I read about DC films these days that doesn't focus on Gal Gadot or Patty Jenkins puts me in a bad mood.
  • Seven_Point_Six_FiveSeven_Point_Six_Five Southern California
    edited February 2018 Posts: 1,257
    Looks like the knightmare sequence was originally going to be expanded on in JL.

    https://screenrant.com/justice-league-zack-snyder-storyboard-darkseid-knightmare/

    Justice-League-Zack-Snyder-Darkseid-Knightmare-Storyboard.jpg
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Why they thought removing the extra Superman scenes was a good idea, I'll never understand. It would have at least made me smile that extra bit more. Cavill looks great in that new, more saturated suit. And seeing him smile after BvS is so nice. These films were always supposed to be Superman's story.

    I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND THE LOGIC.
    @CraigMooreOHMSS, I dunno, man. Likely the same logic that made WB cut a devastating amount of character building scenes with Supes in BvS before this, scenes we only got to see in the ultimate cut after it was too late to save the film's dignity on initial release. Or the logic they employed when they pushed Ayer off SS (seeing what happened to Snyder during JL is like super sour Déjà vu now) and then had a trailer editing company of all things sew together their weakly scripted story into an incoherent mess. Or perhaps it's the mighty logic of WB constantly undermining their creative teams on every project but the one that actually worked out (think they see the pattern yet?), creating a soul-sapping work environment for their talents to toil under and having an inconsistent list of expectations for their upcoming line-up of films that change more than my damn underwear.

    Pristine LOGIC.
    Myself and @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 have covered this quite extensively above, but the more I think about it, the more disgusted I am at how Snyder was treated by WB. So, the timeline now is that once principal on Justice League was finished -

    - Snyder was fired and wasn't able to finish his version of the film. Reshoots, etc.

    - His dismissal was then kept under wraps, in order to keep negative press away.

    - Whedon was then approached to retool most of the film (under the guise of helping Zack "inject more humour into the reshoots") far earlier than the public was made aware.

    - Until, of course, the death of Snyder's daughter. Which gave WB a way out when it came to exposing themselves to negative backlash. "Zack will step away from Justice League to be with his family."

    - Whedon is publically unveiled as the guy to help Zack "finish his vision", but then continues on to change roughly 30-40% of the film, making it a Snyder film in name only.

    - Justice League is released. Snyder still takes most of the flak from oblivious internet lunatics.


    Am I the only person who finds that absolutely disgusting? Do Warner Bros. think we are idiots?
    I'm not familiar enough with the timeline of all these events or the sourcing to make any conclusive judgements, but the fact that Snyder had to work for this version of WB AND cope with the death of his own daughter at the same time is all kinds of messed up. It's one thing to have a shaky and uncertain career trajectory on such a blockbuster scale, but the personal drama and emotion of his life must have been unbearable. I really feel for the guy, and I couldn't imagine working under that kind of ecosystem in general, but even less if I was also dealing with a tragic loss during it all.

    http://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/wb-disappointed-ben-affleck-batman/

    A fine example of how out of touch Warner Bros. is with regards their expectations and their attitude towards actually meeting those expectations.

    How can one be expected to "RDJ this thing" when the material doesn't allow you to?

    Every article I read about DC films these days that doesn't focus on Gal Gadot or Patty Jenkins puts me in a bad mood.
    That is f***ing rich. I'm not a betting man, but I would bet my life that Ben is about a thousand times more disappointed with WB than WB supposedly is with him. They took a guy who loved the character so much he built a damn Batcave entrance in his house and gave him films with such weak material that only a miracle could've given him the chance to "RDJ that thing" successfully. How disappointed does WB think Ben was when he had to rehearse and then shoot the Martha scene, or when he had to spout whatever stupid one-liners that were forced on him in JL...whenever he actually had something to do in that film, that is. He delivers WB Argo and amazing awards and press, then goes on to bring his all in BvS in the face of massive backlash, is called the best thing about the movie and is one of the only solid things fans can agree is in that film. But yeah, it was Ben who always cocked it up. Rich, rich as Bruce Wayne himself.

    Forget the miracle of Patty Jenkins and her team pulling off Wonder Woman as well as they did, how the hell was Nolan able to do what he did with Batman with these idiots working over him? I mean, seriously. From here on out WB should add a disclaimer at the bottom of all their job notices for any interested applicants seeking work on the DCEU films:

    Must have proficiency in creative brainstorming and the ability to work as a team with like minded artists to bring about a desired outcome across many filmmaking departments including but not limited to production design, the writer's room and the effects suite. Also must be prepared to be nagged by endless production notes by your superiors, work in a negative creative ecosystem that underpays and overworks you, adapt to a never-ending list of changing expectations, be prepared to be made a scapegoat of by your aforementioned superiors at the studio and have no ill will when you lose your job because we f*cked up and have to cut down on staff. WB will not and cannot hold any responsibility for the detriment to your career and personal life you may or may not experience on and off the studio property.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,413
    WB are clueless @CraigMooreOHMSS as short as the scene is its a great moment between Supes and Alfred, I like how Alfred addresses Superman.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I love that a 26 second clip just had to be cut from the final edit, because the movie was already too long at barely two hours, right? Hardy har!
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,413
    They must decide on what to cut via committee as they certainly don't cut the right scenes, the opening scene of BvS was cut to the point I had no idea at all what was happening in the theatrical cut.
  • Seven_Point_Six_FiveSeven_Point_Six_Five Southern California
    edited February 2018 Posts: 1,257
    They must decide on what to cut via committee as they certainly don't cut the right scenes, the opening scene of BvS was cut to the point I had no idea at all what was happening in the theatrical cut.

    It really is baffling. I understand they may need to trim the fat here and there but they do such a horrible job at it. The thing is, we all know Snyder shoots long films, so either let him do his thing or hire someone else! WB is ruining Snyder’s reputation by making some awful decisions. They aren’t helping their own reputation either.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    WB are genius at trimming the fat in the editing room. They start where all great studio filmmakers would: with character moments of development and importance. Why have a character building Superman scene with Ma Kent or Lois bogging down the movie when you can extend a CGI action mess sequence by a good five minutes instead? Priorities, people. Priorities!
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Quality has dropped since Snyder vanished.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Despite my past criticisms, I think I'd like JL better if it was an all Snyder effort. Simply because Whedon Wheoning up the whole project makes it very confused as a final product, not sure what it wants to be. Serious and consequential, or frivolous and fun? The blend of both tones can be done, but it wasn't pulled off here.
  • I came across this and it was too funny not to share!

    0bPHfsr.jpg
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Hard to tell if all that light is coming from the sun outside the studio or Gal's smile.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,413
    I came across this and it was too funny not to share!

    0bPHfsr.jpg

    That's a strong dose of Smilex Gas

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,827
    I came across this and it was too funny not to share!

    0bPHfsr.jpg

    That's a strong dose of Smilex Gas

    Hahahahahaha!!!! Gets a grin, agin and agin...
    This has all been fascinating reading guys!
    For my part, I agree with most of it. But Whedon's decision to re-shoot all (most-?) of the Superman scenes was a necessary evil IMO. I can imagine WB asking for a Superman the fans would instantly connect with, and I think Joss delivered as best he could. Aside from Batman, DC heroes need to be bigger than life, not all dark & boo-hooey. I *still* haven't seen MOS or BvS, but I've watch tons of clips that have reinforced the idea that I don't really ever want to. JL was a bit bland, but better bland than another journey into Zak darkness IMO. I *loved* the bright colours of Superman's costume, and I *loved* seeing him smile (Henry has a great smile that was underused in the other movies from what I could see...). An imperfect film yes, but then I wouldn't be buying it if I didn't walk out of the theatre with a GOOD feeling. And I did.
    If a Zak cut ever surfaces, I might rent it out of sheer curiosity, but that's all.
    Yeah, WB rushed it all along too quickly. And Patty was only given the freedom she was on WW because I think WB saw it as a period piece 'origin' story that had no impact on the 'current' movies. She made their best movie so far mostly under the radar.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    @chrisisall, I think it's your duty as a Superman fan to see at least MoS, and maybe BvS just to say you have and be done with it (not like you ever have to watch it again if you don't like it). You know how critical I am of these films, and even I found a lot to enjoy in MoS, enough for me to say that it is one of the two salvageable films of the universe alongside Wonder Woman.

    I think there are things in MoS that would make you smile, and it's not as dreary as you're presuming it to be. You should experience it and not judge it outright, and see how you feel about it. There's genuinely touching and inspiring moments in it that get me cracking a tear every time, and a lot of that has to do with how the character of Superman is built and how he interacts with Ma and Pa. You feel how alone and confused he feels because he's an alien on earth's soil, but we see how he embraces his life there and becomes as American as anyone else with his strong values and principles. There are two perfect scenes in particular that I put on a pedestal and rank as some of the most rousing and moving scenes I've seen in these kinds of films. It's a striking film, the cast is very nice and well utilized and, how about this one: I think Zod remains the best DC villain we've seen (outside the WB execs, of course)!

    If I can have these kinds of reactions to the movie, I can only imagine what you would feel given your strong connection to the character. I like him, but I don't love him as you do and I think you may find things to take away from it that are positive. Not a perfect film, but one I count as very good and don't mind going back to it which is more than I can say about the vast majority of the films this universe has put out.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited February 2018 Posts: 17,827
    You know how critical I am of these films, and even I found a lot to enjoy in MoS, enough for me to say that it is one of the two salvageable films of the universe alongside Wonder Woman.
    It's a striking film, the cast is very nice and well utilized and, how about this one: I think Zod remains the best DC villain we've seen (outside the WB execs, of course)!

    If I can have these kinds of reactions to the movie, I can only imagine what you would feel given your strong connection to the character. I like him, but I don't love him as you do and I think you may find things to take away from it that are positive.
    Grrrr, Arghhh... uhhh... okay... I'll do MOS.... but only because it's YOU sayin' this... and only because we share a supreme love of Spider-Man 2... but IF I dislike it, you will owe me.... ;)
    THWIPP!
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,413
    I love MoS especially the first two acts.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    @chrisisall, haha, fair enough. I'm flattered that you consider my opinion swaying enough.

    MoS is no Spider-Man 2 (though to me, no other superhero film is either outside Nolan's work), and isn't without flaw, so if you do dislike it I hope my punishment isn't too severe. There's one element I could see you not enjoying, but another thing about that element that you may be moved by. I don't know. I'll have to see whenever you get to it, but I'm happy to talk about it with you here since this is the DC thread and basically everyone here has seen it, so no worries about sharing spoilers.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,827
    I love MoS especially the first two acts.

    His red & blue will still be too dark.... but I'll deal.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    The third act is messy though, @chrisisall. So, watch the film with low expectations.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,413
    chrisisall wrote: »
    I love MoS especially the first two acts.

    His red & blue will still be too dark.... but I'll deal.

    The muted colours admittedly don't serve the film well, I think the colours were muted to attempt to hide some of the CGI
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    There's always bumping up the saturation on the TV. :))

    Ooh, another plus about MoS for you, @chrisisall. If you liked the Christ imagery in Spider-Man 2, which you've since convinced me on the presence of, you will really have a lot to appreciate in this movie. Without saying much more, Snyder is very keen on having the hero of Krypton symbolized as a savior using the iconography of that other savior guy. ;)
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,827
    There's always bumping up the saturation on the TV. :))

    Ooh, another plus about MoS for you, @chrisisall. If you liked the Christ imagery in Spider-Man 2, which you've since convinced me on the presence of, you will really have a lot to appreciate in this movie. Without saying much more, Snyder is very keen on having the hero of Krypton symbolized as a savior using the iconography of that other savior guy. ;)

    Cool. I'll have at least an interesting time with it then...
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,231
    Despite the muted colours I still see MOS as a very beautiful film. I think Snyder understood the essence of the character but had fun playing around his origins and it mostly worked in my opinion, even if it was often only due to the sincerity Cavill brought to the part.

    @chrisisall, I would hope you revisit that opinion about Whedon. Although I am sure he was merely following executive orders, I see his botch job as a complete undermining of what was supposed to come before - an almost equal hackjob of what was done to the character in BvS.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,827
    @chrisisall, I would hope you revisit that opinion about Whedon. Although I am sure he was merely following executive orders, I see his botch job as a complete undermining of what was supposed to come before - an almost equal hackjob of what was done to the character in BvS.
    Nope. Sorry. Whedon was in charge of a salvage operation. He did the best he could, and it worked well enough for me.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,413
    We get to see Superman in his black suit in MoS which some media seem to forget, the scene in question is a great sequence.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,231
    chrisisall wrote: »
    @chrisisall, I would hope you revisit that opinion about Whedon. Although I am sure he was merely following executive orders, I see his botch job as a complete undermining of what was supposed to come before - an almost equal hackjob of what was done to the character in BvS.
    Nope. Sorry. Whedon was in charge of a salvage operation. He did the best he could, and it worked well enough for me.

    Fair enough - each to their own. He made an even bigger mess in my eyes, and took away anything that was remotely interesting about the previous films.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    Risico007 wrote: »
    They are blaming everyone else for their mistakes if we go back to what Snyder said his view of the universe as far as I can tell was supposed to be

    Man of steel (2013)
    Man of Steel 2 (2015) with the villains being I believe Luther and Brainiac and Batman having a cameo at the end (similar to Wonder Woman in BVS)
    The Batman (2016) likely being directed by someone else but staring the same actor
    Batman V Superman 2017
    Justice league 2018 (or 2019)

    Again you can hate on Snyder all you want but he was dealt a bad hand by the studio I honestly don’t think anyone could of saved dc films from wb’s we need a justice league tomorrow mentality.


    My personal views aside the franchise was doomed from the start and in my opinion should Affleck leave before doing his solo film I will place the blame firmly on WB

    Translation: Excuses.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    MAN OF STEEL is by far the best Superman movie.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,231
    MAN OF STEEL is by far the best Superman movie.

    It's certainly up around the top spot for me, too.
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