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Which doesn't upset me- I don't think anyone who defends the Snyder cut can criticise the other version for doing a bit of fan service! :D
I know what you mean though, it wouldn't have quite suited the tone. Seemed fine in the original cut though in that I can't even remember it happening!
To be honest I was a bit surprised when I saw it after reading reviews that said 'Cyborg has become the heart of the film' because I really didn't get that impression when I watched it. He's kept at a distance throughout it: it's still Bruce's film. Cyborg starts the film scowling and ends it much the same way. I think he says something like he's 'not alone anymore' but it's really not something I felt from watching it, much like the rest of the characters I never got an impression of them actually getting to know each other. I don't know how it got to the point of, say, Aquaman trusting Wonder Woman in a big battle.
Indeed. I, for one, always appreciate a bit of fan service (and a lot of it too), in no matter what cut.
The Amazones and the Atlantians used to fight side-by-side before they ended up in conflict. I always take that particular moment in the film as both characters naturally re-uniting when fighting a bigger bad.
Well I don't mean them specifically (and I'm not sure which moment you mean); I just never got the impression that any of them got to know each other. They're strangers one minute and then all happily standing around a table discussing strategy and saying "they've never faced us together before" the next like they're a solid team- there was no character development. There's a scene with two of them digging up Clark's grave talking about WW, but that's about it.
I thought the way Fisher delivered “Boo-Yah” sounded pretty good, it was a moment done right. Josstice League had some moments that I really liked, and others that I didn’t really, but it’s been so long since I’ve seen the film. For me, I latched onto Cyborg as a character, and I’m not exactly sure why, he becomes somewhat positive at the end when he’s standing at his parents grave, and the big wide smile he has on his face before flying up into the sky made my heart warm up considering everything the character went through. Ben Affleck for me was the real highlight of the film. Loved his entire performance, my favorite on the film by a large mile.
Funny as this may sound, I’ve watched this film 4 times already, once in a single viewing, the other 3 chopped up into blocks to make sure I was certain in my opinions on the movie, because I tend to always fall in love with newer films and give them extremely high praise if I enjoy them on initial viewing, it’s something that has happened to me with Joker, Aquaman, SPECTRE, and numerous others, but ZSJL still holds up. Granted I’m a fan of these versions of the characters.
I can’t say that I didn’t see any character development there personally. Each character (perhaps Superman withstanding) is given time to flesh out themselves and to get us to care about who they are/what they’re predicaments are, etc. I can see the growth with each character by the end of the film, and I suppose that’s the beauty of being one of the few who enjoyed Snyder’s previous DC films, to see this brighter, more optimistic tone felt deserved and welcoming. I was firmly comfortable by the end with this version of the Justice League, and their interactions, and dare I say it all felt earned, whereas in the Theatrical cut, I didn’t feel any of that at all. I felt rather empty and hollow. I also thought everyone for the most part gave a great performance. Gadot was a bit wooden in places, but even then she managed to entertain me whenever she was on screen.
For sure.
I didn't see them as a solid team until they were all together victorious at the end, but that felt intentional to me. Even during the battles they all fought as individuals who just came together to fight a common enemy, which is why they arguably lost their first few encounters with Steppenwolf.
The "never fought us united" line later on felt more like an expression of what they need to aim for rather than being a reflection of their current state. They had enough character development as individuals to sell that, I feel, with the exception arguably being Arthur - who is the only one who still feels like he's not entirely sold on the concept of being part of a team. That's probably down to Momoa really not easing off on the lone-wolf attitude he brings to it. That's just his presence.
The rest all felt pretty natural.
Interesting Whedon touch: In the Snyder Cut, we see Cyborg and Flash give each other a fist bump when the heroes are lined up at the end. In Whedon’s cut, he rewrote the whole scene with the two digging Supes’ grave and included a set up where Flash attempts to fist bump, but Cyborg stoically looks at him. By including this, it gives the hero shot at the end more context with Cyborg having learned to bond not just with the team but interact with Flash in a way he’s comfortable with as buddies.
This is part of why I don’t think ALL of Whedon’s contributions are entirely disposable and destructive like so many Snyder stans think. They seem to only think of the bad bits like the boob joke with Flash and Wonder Woman.
With the exception of a couple of individuals, almost no one on that set cared about the movie. Maybe a better way to put it was that they only cared about the movie in as far as what it was going to do for them and their careers. Who was getting the choice lines. Who was getting their scenes cut. It was always about them. It just wasn't an environment Joss is accustomed to working in. And frankly it doesn't help that Joss isn't exactly a peacemaker either. On top of that a few specific people would never pass up the chance to remind Joss that it wasn't his movie. This became a regular bargaining chip whenever certain parties weren't happy with what was happening with their characters or their scenes."
It's not just "Snyder stans" who think those bad moments undermine the previous film, though. Plenty of other folk took issue with it as well and as it is those scenes that are most indicative of Whedon as person, they're naturally going to take precedence over any of the other touches he brought to it.
Well the race scene between Flash and Superman was a nice touch, and (inherently) the idea of kids interacting with Superman at the beginning is something that works on paper, but it’s failure comes down to execution. I don’t think anybody was expecting the jarring changes between what Snyder shot, and what Whedon shot to be so obvious, nor did we expect MustacheGate to happen either. Not to defend Whedon from his horrible behavior, but he does rather seem like the guy taking the fall for the failure of the entire film, rather than the case being studio executives being greedy, and unable to admit to mistakes they’ve made.
So in this Forbes report, he heard the conversation, that’s hearsay from the person making the complaint and is very weak.
As far as digitally changing skin tones, that may or may not be true but bias against him because of his race would not be the reason. In this era of filmmaking, virtually every second of film is digitally manipulated; that includes the skin tones of many actors, no matter their race. Now, for darker skinned actors it may may done to slightly so that their features register better, particularly in dimly lit environments. Justice League contains a lot of dramatically dark scene. The point is, his skin color may have been tweaked a bit, but not because of racial animosity.
I just bought them getting to know each other more in Avengers. I do need to feel they know each other in some way- I remember Aquaman turns up in the tunnel and saves them all and then they're just a team the next time we see them. It very much stuck out to me as a 'why are they talking to each other like that when they've only just met?'. Every buddy cop movie I've ever seen makes a better job of charting the progression of team mates bonding, and in four hours of runtime I'd just expect them to find time to do it.
Or it might all be as racist as he says it was. Without us being there it's not really for us to pronounce judgement on it.
Possibly, I’m just trying to balance the discussion. So much of this situation is so vague.
It doesn't mean they're always true in the long run, no, but they should always be believed and taken seriously foremost.
Now I’m not accusing Fisher of lying but he just hasn’t presented anything concrete.
Well... yes and no. I teach a diverse group of youngsters. Obviously, I treat all my students the same way. But when I tell some of them to be quiet or when I expel them for perfectly good reasons, "you are a racist" is the first accusation that sometimes comes my way, either from the student or his parents. The accusation is false, but the words were spoken. And unlike in the case of my colleague in France who was beheaded over something he didn't do or say, I prefer to have such accusations not believed foremost. Not all allegations or accusations are legit. The false ones can be really dangerous too. Especially with famous people, the mere fact of an allegation can ruin one's career regardless of the truth. That's because the "public court" is out there, and said court will not wait for the attorneys to arrive. Even if the allegations are later dismissed, reputations are left scarred and stained. So no, they shouldn't always just be believed; innocent until proven guilty?
That said, allegations of any kind certainly should be taken seriously and investigated, but preferably without any media involvement. I'm not choosing sides here, but I regret that Fisher is throwing it all out in the open. If he has things to complain about, and quite possibly he does, then he should be talking to the right people instead of leaving Whedon's dirty laundry to dry in the public spotlights. This isn't about things scandalously leaking out, this is about him loudmouthing about his case everywhere to all who want to hear it. Look, I have sympathies for the guy, but we shouldn't be talking about this right now; other people should be talking about this behind closed doors. And if the outcome of that doesn't satisfy him, the Courts can pick it up.
Excellent...
In abuse cases it's not quite innocent until proven guilty, no. Always believe and take seriously first, otherwise you create a culture where people are afraid to come forward.
I'm not saying they're always right, of course not, but never "not believed foremost", no way. I think that's very dangerous.
The poor guy who was beheaded was killed by a criminal- that doesn't have any relevance to talking about how authorities or society at large should react.
I agree we shouldn't be passing judgement on it, but even here you're rather vilifying him for speaking up about what he says is abuse, calling him a loudmouth etc. and I fundamentally disagree with that. We can't make victims feel that they would be scrutinised and blamed for coming forward because there's so many of them who won't do that in the first place.
By saying this, I'm not frightening victims into complete silence. I'm not "vilifying" the man for breaking silence; I'm criticising the method. "Just publicly say whatever the heck you want" is not the proper way to motivate people to speak. Find the right people; and if they refuse to hear you, drag the other person in front of a judge for all I care. Not a lot of good has ever come from using the Internet for this. Look at this thread, for Darkseid's sake! I come here to talk about the Snyder Cut, but since a couple of weeks ago, I'm reading about Fisher having serious issues with Whedon. Let them duke it out, sort out the truth, kiss and make up, ... in private, or in the WB offices, or if needs be in court.
But how is any of this relevant to this thread? Every time @Fire_and_Ice_Returns, you, others and myself talk about the film, the whole Fisher thing somehow gets brought up. This neither affects my appreciation for this film or the theatrical cut. Throw a rock and you'll hit a disgruntled, angry, mistreated, ... actor. But I'm not thinking any less of The Shining because Kubrick made Shelly Duvall bonkers; I'm not going to boycott Superman The Movie because Brando may or may not have abused Maria Schneider in Last Tango in Paris; I'm not thinking any less of Tarantino's output because of Weinstein. And the whole Fisher thing is, at this point, a mere "he-said-she-said" episode in a long list of Hollywood feuds with no relevance to this discussion.
Fisher has to try to sort this out. Speaking out loud is not going to help him, certainly not at this stage. You're wrong, @mtm, in saying that by urging people to keep the dirt out of the media before the case had been handled by the people involved, I'm basically shutting them up or forcing them into the closet. And I firmly disagree that an allegation must automatically lead to a guilty arrow pointing to the accused. Of course, one must take any such allegation seriously; and then one investigates. But you neither believe nor conclude "guilt" until the proof is on the table. This could become a very dangerous world of witchhunts if abuse cases immediately put one's innocence on some kind of legal hiatus. You can be a suspect in an abuse case, but until the evidence is there, none of this should go viral. Even if you are shown to be innocent afterwards, and the intentions of the accuser turn out malicious, irreparable damage may have been caused. I'm not saying Whedon is innocent in the matter; nor am I saying he isn't. To be settled by other people, hopefully soon enough. And perhaps then some of it can get out in the open if the proven victim agrees with that. Meanwhile, perhaps we should talk about the movie, Fisher's role and acting, and so on, without always, somehow, returning to this Fisher-vs-Whedon thing.
I think everyone in this thread so far isn’t particularly “wrong” in their thoughts or reasoning. Is isn’t “wrong” to be a little bit skeptical of these types of things considering the industry were discussing here. I always remember the false accusations against Morgan Freeman a few years ago, and that left a rather poor taste in my mouth, and perhaps there is some value in keeping matters like this private, but at the same time, this is how the Harvey Weinstein/Bill Cosby scandals were allowed to happen. People should be allowed to voice their stories if something very serious like that is occurring. They should speak up, and not continue remaining silent in fear. That’s why I respect what Ray Fisher is doing, he’s standing up for what he believes is right, and I say let him. It’s not like anybody brought charges of slander against him, and Fisher even stated that if he was wrong, he’ll welcome a lawsuit with open arms.
It does seem that the internal mechanisms which are supposed to deal with this are broken though. Sadly victims are sometimes pushed to do whatever they can. I agree it's not ideal, but they clearly feel strongly about this.
I haven't talked about Fisher before; I haven't been following his complaints. It's only turned to this subject in the last day or so that I've seen.
I'm not wrong, no. The more people feel that the world is against them, as I'm aware is happening with quite a kickback against Fisher, the more they'll feel they won't be listened to. You just have to have looked at the reactions and conversations which the awful murder of Sarah Everard sparked recently: victims so often feel they can't come forward.
I am suspicious of why so many people seem to be so keen for him to be wrong.
I'm not saying you believe the accused to be guilty, but you must believe the accuser to be telling the truth, and especially not cast doubt on what they're saying just because of the manner they say it.
You have literally said that the accuser should be "not believed", which I disagree with in the strongest terms.
The nature of presumed innocence and how that changes in abuse cases is a very large debate which is ongoing.
So it may very well be possible that Fisher blew something out of proportion. Given what he finally revealed in that THR article, that seems to be the case.
I love just how much information on the production of Josstice League is slowly coming to light. These people are no longer holding anything back.
But at the same time, Terrio is still responsible for not being able to make the events in BvS believable on a character level. WB may have wanted the darker tone, but with Terrio’s input he still presented Batman and Superman as a bunch of thoughtless meatheads.
Lines like “If there’s a one percent chance we have to take it as an absolute certainty” make Batman more dumb and unlikable.
Ironically, it makes Bruce Wayne more like Lex Luthor than the movie's Lex Luthor. He's hellbent on killing Superman for what he perceived as Superman trying to be superior to everyone around him. He's not thinking like Batman in any regard.
And I'm someone who generally likes Batfleck.
One of the big improvements of JL was that Batman was much better written, likely because there was no need to contrive a situation where he had to be in conflict with a hero. I don’t think the idea of presenting Batman “out of sorts” as our introduction to Batfleck was wise.
It’s a shame Affleck walked away from his solo film, because he deserved it as much as Cavill deserving a stand-alone sequel.
I’ve seen his defenses over creative choices regarding Rey and her lineage and MAN he was not convincing!
I would support this as well but with some minor requests. Keep it as standalone as possible, and let BA have as much control as possible. If it doesn’t work as cinema, let him do a graphic novel of it, with Geoff Johns. Do his Robin’s backstory as well! Zack Snyder’s Justice League sequels deserve the same.