DC Comics Cinematic Universe (2013 - present)

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  • Posts: 533
    DRush76 wrote: »
    Not saying any of these claims are true, as I don't give any of them the time of day. All we have to go on is DC and WB's past performances, and that does not instill one with overflowing confidence as to any future successes, especially critically.



    I don't get it. How are we supposed to judge the success of "Wonder Woman" on the past critical performances of the DCEU critically?

    I don't pay attention to film critics anymore. I stopped regarding their opinion as fact over a decade ago. And I no longer their judgment after seeing "Man of Steel", "Batman v. Superman" and "Suicide Squad" . . . especially since I ended up enjoying all three films.

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    DRush76 wrote: »
    Not saying any of these claims are true, as I don't give any of them the time of day. All we have to go on is DC and WB's past performances, and that does not instill one with overflowing confidence as to any future successes, especially critically.



    I don't get it. How are we supposed to judge the success of "Wonder Woman" on the past critical performances of the DCEU critically?

    I don't pay attention to film critics anymore. I stopped regarding their opinion as fact over a decade ago. And I no longer their judgment after seeing "Man of Steel", "Batman v. Superman" and "Suicide Squad" . . . especially since I ended up enjoying all three films.

    @doubleoego, it is strange for her to suddenly urge people not to listen to a source that'd proved correct last time around with the same company and franchise, and a statement she'd backed up. Perhaps she has other sources that tell her this old source is wrong?


    Proven correct the last time? For whom? You? Certainly not for me. Certainly not for a lot of people who are actually fans of the DCEU films, even if others like to pretend that they do not exist. Why is it that people are so determined that their opinion on a certain movie should be regarded as fact? And why are film critics harbor this attitude to an extreme?

    As to your first question, we look at Warner's past track record with realizing ideas on film to dictate how future movies may stack up. MoS and BvS had Snyder's paws all over them with bad oversight, while WW doesn't, so that makes me lean more positively on it by principle. Of course SS didn't have that issue either and we ended up with one of the worst produced blockbuster films of all time with editing that could be trumped by the work of a layman editor just out of film school, but hopefully this time it'll be different.

    We can gauge the future critical response too, in some ways, since WB and DC have done the unthinkable and actually made expectations for their movies so low that any film of theirs that isn't an abomination may be viewed as great by filmgoers. Or in the same token, critics and audiences expect low returns and will be able to spot common failures in future films that already existed in the early efforts.

    As to your second question, the overwhelming majority view BvS very negatively, that's just fact. I have yet to speak to actual fans of these characters outside of two members here who actually liked the movie, everyone else either thought it was so pathetic they had indifference to it or they, like me, were outraged at how terrible it was on many fronts and an insult to iconic characters and our brains. So, my statements are made from experience and long discussions on the film in question, few to none of which I've had with people who even thought it was an okay film.

    Those that like the film don't even have strong arguments in its case, while those that disapprove of it argue it to shreds. All I hear from people who like it are, "The warehouse fight is badass," and they like some of Wonder Woman and Bruce moments in it. Not exactly a mind-blowing review of a film, or a rousing call to arms about its greatness. I know some like it for the action, but even that for me was weak and unimaginative, and when you have a script that is that badly supported and illogical on many fronts, on top of just being badly written, no amount of Batman murdering people is going to help it. And the latter was actually my least favorite thing about the film, besides the slapdash insertion of Doomsday out of nowhere, the fake-out with Superman, the mind-numbing Lex, shoddy character motivations for all the main cast and endless loads more. And don't get me started on the overblown CGI and green screen. The shot of the trinity together was laughably bad, as you could see it was shot right on set with some of the worst effects I've seen in a blockbuster film.

    But please, do continue with the outrage.
  • edited January 2017 Posts: 533
    As to your first question, we look at Warner's past track record with realizing ideas on film to dictate how future movies may stack up. MoS and BvS had Snyder's paws all over them with bad oversight, while WW doesn't, so that makes me lean more positively on it by principle. Of course SS didn't have that issue either and we ended up with one of the worst produced blockbuster films of all time with editing that could be trumped by the work of a layman editor just out of film school, but hopefully this time it'll be different.



    This is YOUR OPINION. Your opinion. All of your negative comments about the DCEU films is nothing more than a damn opinion. All of the negative opinions from film critics are nothing more than opinions. Do you honestly expect me to accept all of these comments as fact? Because I sure as hell do not.

    Look, you're entitled to your opinion. But why can't you accept it as an opinion and not try to present it as fact?

    And now I'm expected to judge "Wonder Woman" based upon the opinions of others . . . before I can see the movie? I don't think so. Screw that.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    DRush76 wrote: »
    As to your first question, we look at Warner's past track record with realizing ideas on film to dictate how future movies may stack up. MoS and BvS had Snyder's paws all over them with bad oversight, while WW doesn't, so that makes me lean more positively on it by principle. Of course SS didn't have that issue either and we ended up with one of the worst produced blockbuster films of all time with editing that could be trumped by the work of a layman editor just out of film school, but hopefully this time it'll be different.

    This is YOUR OPINION. Your opinion. All of your negative comments about the DCEU films is nothing more than a damn opinion. All of the negative opinions from film critics are nothing more than opinions. Do you honestly expect me to accept all of these comments as fact? Because I sure as hell do not.

    Look, you're entitled to your opinion. But why can't you accept it as an opinion and not try to present it as fact?

    And now I'm expected to judge "Wonder Woman" based upon the opinions of others . . . before I can see the movie? I don't think so. Screw that.

    I write film criticism with most of my free time and have a degree in writing, so yes, I understand what an opinion is, especially when it comes to filmmaking.

    Nowhere in my writing have I ever stated my view was the end-all-be-all, unless you really expect me to type "in my opinion" after every statement I make-that would take a long time, I hope you understand.

    It is quite clear however that BvS was a majority stinker, going by hard aggregated numbers, and is viewed as an eyesore at the industry level, where it will carry a foul name for years. It's left a bad taste in peoples' mouths and that will effect the DC/WB brand far down the line. This is all simply fact for those that care to be made aware of it. Subjectivity doesn't enter the conversation.

    The worry over future DC films will be gauged by who is involved, with Snyder being the main concern, and the involvement of people like Geoff Johns being more reassuring-critic opinions don't come into it. It's all about who is working behind the brand. If we know that and observe their past performances, we can learn much about how their other projects may turn out. It's why I'm optimistic about WW, for the involvement of Johns and the absence of Snyder on the project and expecting a low return from JL because it's the same team behind BvS (I hope I don't need to explain why that is a bad sign again).

    On critics, I would like to make the point that those in the field of film criticism do ultimately have greater authority over the industry and its products than anyone. Critics get a bad name-often by those who feel the need to be laughably outraged at a simple opinion on the internet-but the good ones know way more that the average Joe and understand what makes a good film because they study it intensely. This isn't even mentioning their industry connections that make them well-informed about big projects like JL, which makes them more aware of what to expect and how the main players are functioning.
  • DRush76 wrote: »
    As to your first question, we look at Warner's past track record with realizing ideas on film to dictate how future movies may stack up. MoS and BvS had Snyder's paws all over them with bad oversight, while WW doesn't, so that makes me lean more positively on it by principle. Of course SS didn't have that issue either and we ended up with one of the worst produced blockbuster films of all time with editing that could be trumped by the work of a layman editor just out of film school, but hopefully this time it'll be different.

    This is YOUR OPINION. Your opinion. All of your negative comments about the DCEU films is nothing more than a damn opinion. All of the negative opinions from film critics are nothing more than opinions. Do you honestly expect me to accept all of these comments as fact? Because I sure as hell do not.

    Look, you're entitled to your opinion. But why can't you accept it as an opinion and not try to present it as fact?

    And now I'm expected to judge "Wonder Woman" based upon the opinions of others . . . before I can see the movie? I don't think so. Screw that.

    I write film criticism with most of my free time and have a degree in writing, so yes, I understand what an opinion is, especially when it comes to filmmaking.

    Nowhere in my writing have I ever stated my view was the end-all-be-all, unless you really expect me to type "in my opinion" after every statement I make-that would take a long time, I hope you understand.

    It is quite clear however that BvS was a majority stinker, going by hard aggregated numbers, and is viewed as an eyesore at the industry level, where it will carry a foul name for years. It's left a bad taste in peoples' mouths and that will effect the DC/WB brand far down the line. This is all simply fact for those that care to be made aware of it. Subjectivity doesn't enter the conversation.

    The worry over future DC films will be gauged by who is involved, with Snyder being the main concern, and the involvement of people like Geoff Johns being more reassuring-critic opinions don't come into it. It's all about who is working behind the brand. If we know that and observe their past performances, we can learn much about how their other projects may turn out. It's why I'm optimistic about WW, for the involvement of Johns and the absence of Snyder on the project and expecting a low return from JL because it's the same team behind BvS (I hope I don't need to explain why that is a bad sign again).

    On critics, I would like to make the point that those in the field of film criticism do ultimately have greater authority over the industry and its products than anyone. Critics get a bad name-often by those who feel the need to be laughably outraged at a simple opinion on the internet-but the good ones know way more that the average Joe and understand what makes a good film because they study it intensely. This isn't even mentioning their industry connections that make them well-informed about big projects like JL, which makes them more aware of what to expect and how the main players are functioning.

    I think really the problem with DC is the damn studio the movies are at. WB has been constantly messing with these films in all sorts of ways. In the article that I posted, I read that apparently WB went on with the production of Green Lantern, even going so far as too start filming, before Martin Campbell had even signed on for the film.

    Another example would be BvS and SS. I'm not sure which version you saw, but there is and ultimate cut which has about an extra 30 minutes of film. It ends up fixing a majority of the films problems, and I actually liked it compared to the theatrical cut. Suicide Squad to me was a fun movie also, flawed up the ass, but did what is set out, for me personally. There is also an extended cut as well, but even then, it doesn't fix the problems with the film, I really hope WB releases David Ayer's actual cut of Suicide Squad, because there is still a ton of footage missing. All in all these movies have potential, but WB just seems to be unable to keep their hands off the movies. I hope WW and JL change that.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    @007ClassicBondFan, of course WB are highly culpable, if not the most. They are the owners of DC, therefore they own these characters and have last say on what is done with them.

    It was Warner that put execs in place who didn't heed the warning signs of bad productions, who didn't reign Snyder in, and who took Ayer's film and paid trailer editors to do a theatrical cut for the film, which we got the abysmal result of, amongst many other errors. Warner wanted the Marvel money (films making over a billion each) right out of the gate, but didn't want to put in any of the work to actual build a universe in a smart and effective way. What we have now are icons wasted, along with some of the best stories we could've gotten on the big screen.

    Now we'll never get to see a proper adaptation of the death of Superman, all because Snyder needed to stick Doomsday in the film out of nowhere just so Superman could die and Bruce could start the Justice League. Not because he wanted to tell a gripping and emotional story, just to use it as a stupid plot device. I'm a DC boy, but these films are making me go more and more to Marvel, because at least they're doing it the right way and with a respect to their characters. I was hoping that these movies would give me the heroes of my youth, but that hope has yet to be delivered in any way.

    Warner now seem to be listening, however. Snyder is reigned in, Geoff Johns is overseeing many productions and doing heavy script work to make sure that the films are far more strong in a narrative and character sense (one of the biggest issues with BvS and SS for me), and the execs at the top are being shuffled up in a way that seems promising. Hopefully all the people in place post-JL (if it wasn't too late to save it) can right the ship.

    If WW and JL fail, however, there may not even be a chance to see what DC and Warner can do. They can't keep throwing all this money at these films just to break even and have low net gains. It's not a sustainable way for them to go on, especially when they don't have a strong money earner with Harry Potter gone from the frame. These movies were supposed to be their big money makers, but they can't even make it rain money with the three greatest superheroes of all time. Spending $415 million+ on a film is just nuts, and they don't deserve to be shocked when they fail to profit as expected.
  • edited January 2017 Posts: 2,264
    @007ClassicBondFan, of course WB are highly culpable, if not the most. They are the owners of DC, therefore they own these characters and have last say on what is done with them.

    It was Warner that put execs in place who didn't heed the warning signs of bad productions, who didn't reign Snyder in, and who took Ayer's film and paid trailer editors to do a theatrical cut for the film, which we got the abysmal result of, amongst many other errors. Warner wanted the Marvel money (films making over a billion each) right out of the gate, but didn't want to put in any of the work to actual build a universe in a smart and effective way. What we have now are icons wasted, along with some of the best stories we could've gotten on the big screen.

    Now we'll never get to see a proper adaptation of the death of Superman, all because Snyder needed to stick Doomsday in the film out of nowhere just so Superman could die and Bruce could start the Justice League. Not because he wanted to tell a gripping and emotional story, just to use it as a stupid plot device. I'm a DC boy, but these films are making me go more and more to Marvel, because at least they're doing it the right way and with a respect to their characters. I was hoping that these movies would give me the heroes of my youth, but that hope has yet to be delivered in any way.

    Warner now seem to be listening, however. Snyder is reigned in, Geoff Johns is overseeing many productions and doing heavy script work to make sure that the films are far more strong in a narrative and character sense (one of the biggest issues with BvS and SS for me), and the execs at the top are being shuffled up in a way that seems promising. Hopefully all the people in place post-JL (if it wasn't too late to save it) can right the ship.

    If WW and JL fail, however, there may not even be a chance to see what DC and Warner can do. They can't keep throwing all this money at these films just to break even and have low net gains. It's not a sustainable way for them to go on, especially when they don't have a strong money earner with Harry Potter gone from the frame. These movies were supposed to be their big money makers, but they can't even make it rain money with the three greatest superheroes of all time. Spending $415 million+ on a film is just nuts, and they don't deserve to be shocked when they fail to profit as expected.

    My thoughts exactly. I think Snyder needs to go, and if rumors are true I think JL might be his last film in the DCEU. Either way he took the beating for MOS and BVS, if JL is successful people aren't going to be saying it's because of Snyder, they'll be praising everything else but Snyder. There is no denying Snyder can put one hell of a shot in a film, but that doesn't amount to anything if, as you said, he crams random plot points from different comics into the movie just for the sake of an action scene. If they really wanted to have Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman team up, then they should've had Lex in his battlesuit like in the comics. Doomsday was just the most ridiculous thing too; they should've saved him as it is. I think what saves BvS (at least the ultimate cut) would be the actors and the visuals. I'll admit I'm not much of a comic book reader as I used to be as a kid, but I loved these characters more than the Marvel characters and it hurts seeing these great icons in the hands off assinine executives and filmmakers like WB and Snyder respectively. As far the MCU, I can't really say I'm a fan to be honest; the movies kind of come across as generic. I've seen a few but never got the appeal of it all. I miss the days of the old Superman and Batman movies, of TDK Trilogy, and the first two Spider-Man and X Men movies, where everything was more focused on telling a story instead of making money. Mind you, I liked all three DCEU films, but I really hope WW and JL really knock it out of the park.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    edited January 2017 Posts: 45,489
    Who are the two fans who enjoyed it, @0Brady0M0Bondfanatic7? Am I one of those two, or did you forget to count me?
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Who are the two fans who enjoyed it, @0Brady0M0Bondfanatic7? Am I one of those two, or did you forget to count me?

    I was thinking Risico007 and Master_Dahark, so yes, you were forgotten. Don't take it too hard, old chap.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited January 2017 Posts: 8,216
    Who are the two fans who enjoyed it, @0Brady0M0Bondfanatic7? Am I one of those two, or did you forget to count me?

    I was thinking Risico007 and Master_Dahark, so yes, you were forgotten. Don't take it too hard, old chap.

    You can probably add me to that, also. While I'm fairly critical of a chunk of it, there's a lot I did enjoy too.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Who are the two fans who enjoyed it, @0Brady0M0Bondfanatic7? Am I one of those two, or did you forget to count me?

    I was thinking Risico007 and Master_Dahark, so yes, you were forgotten. Don't take it too hard, old chap.

    You can probably add me to that, also. While I'm fairly critical of a chunk of it, there's a lot I did enjoy too.

    @CraigMooreOHMSS, I was counting the people I know here who used the words "I loved it" at some time regarding BvS.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited January 2017 Posts: 8,216
    Who are the two fans who enjoyed it, @0Brady0M0Bondfanatic7? Am I one of those two, or did you forget to count me?

    I was thinking Risico007 and Master_Dahark, so yes, you were forgotten. Don't take it too hard, old chap.

    You can probably add me to that, also. While I'm fairly critical of a chunk of it, there's a lot I did enjoy too.

    @CraigMooreOHMSS, I was counting the people I know here who used the words "I loved it" at some time regarding BvS.

    Ah, well in that case I am rightfully absent my friend.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    doubleoego wrote: »

    That's super weird, to me at least. Of all the solo villain films...
  • Seven_Point_Six_FiveSeven_Point_Six_Five Southern California
    edited January 2017 Posts: 1,257
    doubleoego wrote: »

    That's super weird, to me at least. Of all the solo villain films...

    I assume its actually happening because Dwayne Johnson has his own production team spearheading this, or so I heard.
  • doubleoego wrote: »

    That's super weird, to me at least. Of all the solo villain films...

    I assume its actually happening because Dwayne Johnson has his own production team spearheading this, or so I heard.

    I'm suprised the Rock is still involved to be honest. No one has heard anything about Shazam or Black Adam in the DCEU for a while other than the movie is in early pre-production
  • Last I heard Black Adam was the main villain of Man of Steel 2, with an origin of Shazam serving as a subplot.
    That's the best way really- I can't picture people flocking to a Shazam movie, lol
  • I didn't think I'd see people flocking into Ant Man or Guardians of the Galaxy but they did. I don't see why it'd be any different than Shazam
  • Seven_Point_Six_FiveSeven_Point_Six_Five Southern California
    edited January 2017 Posts: 1,257
    Last I heard Black Adam was the main villain of Man of Steel 2, with an origin of Shazam serving as a subplot.
    That's the best way really- I can't picture people flocking to a Shazam movie, lol

    There's no reason to waste a MOS sequel on Black Adam. If they want Superman to bolster the cast of a Shazam movie, they just need to adapt Superman/Shazam!: The Return of Black Adam. I think it might actually happen too considering Cavill posted this a few weeks ago:

    077cf1f104e4407a99a8a38c1c353f4a?fit=max&h=1536&w=1536&s=f7843b1dcfacc2596645c5e628f6dadd
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I agree, MoS 2 should be its own thing. I'm sick of all this extraneous "fluff" distracting away from the character, since he's yet to be characterized in the way he deserves. BvS saw Batman take the spotlight, and JL seems to have him sitting out for a long while.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    This is a great video that addresses fundimental issued going on in the DCEU:

  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    What if WB made Civil War



    Looks absolutely spot on.
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,854
    Right down to the DCEU penchant for spoiling the whole of the movie.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    All that was missing was a moment where Tony and Steve found out their mothers had the same name and stopped fighting.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    justice-league-image-640.jpg
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Yet another picture of the same four people looking at yet another unseen thing. Not exactly getting my pulse to quicken.
  • Posts: 6,432
    DC do like there photos of people standing around.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    At least Batman isn't ripping off Owlman. :P
  • Posts: 6,432
    Based on that photo they must struggle to fit through doors when walking shoulder to shoulder.
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