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TSWLM v/s MR

jaguar007jaguar007
edited March 2011 in Bond Movies Posts: 638
I was mentioning on another thread how I am really surprised at the love MR gets on this site, yet TSWLM gets a fair amount of hate. I just don't get it, I think TSWLM is far superior to MR.

Your thoughts?
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Comments

  • DiscoVolanteDiscoVolante Stockholm, Sweden
    Posts: 1,347
    I prefer TSWLM, which used to be my absolute favourite.

    Some things are pro MR though: Holly is hot. Drax is a better villain. Great music.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    TSWLM hands down. MR is entertaining but just gets way too silly. The mix of silliness and intrigue was done properly in the former.
  • jaguar007jaguar007
    Posts: 638
    I found Anya to be just as hot as Holly with both of them being comparable actresses (ie, neither will ever win an Oscar).

    I felt Drax was underutilized, a very colorful character in the books, but Lonsdale was very monotone throughout the film. I just watched MR yesterday so it is pretty fresh in my memory.
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    Posts: 3,262
    MR. It's got John Barry, a stronger lead villain in Drax and the best of the female agents in Holly. Sir Rog's 4th Bond performance is superconfident and cool like Connery's in TB and Brosnan's in DAD. It goes way OTT but does it with panache and my favorite of the sci-fi/fantasy Bond films.

    Mods, can we get a poll added to this one please?
  • jaguar007jaguar007
    Posts: 638
    Quoting PrinceKamalKhan: MR. It's got John Barry
    I will give you that, funny though TSWLM is the only Bond film to get an Oscar nomination for best score. Hot in 1977, but yes, very dated now.
  • dragonskydragonsky
    Posts: 2,491
    hmm interesting not sure but my vote goes to TSWLM,it is better than MR overall i say
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    As I said in the other thread, even Moore and Gilbert thought TSWLM was better (Moore has said many times that he felt it was the best Bond film he did).

    I do rather like Drax though - he gets the best line of the film:
    "look after Mr Bond...seee that some harm comes to him"
  • DiscoVolanteDiscoVolante Stockholm, Sweden
    Posts: 1,347
    Quoting PrinceKamalKhan:
    Mods, can we get a poll added to this one please?







    Sure. I might as well practise ;)
  • LudsLuds MIA
    Posts: 1,986
    Moonraker all the way. Spy is a cheaply remade version of YOLT which isn't very good in the first place, with a lesser Bond, a lesser villain, a lesser set, a lesser story, and well the 2nd worst Bond girl in the franchise history.
  • jaguar007jaguar007
    Posts: 638
    Quoting Luds: Spy is a cheaply remade version of YOLT
    And MR is a remake (albeit an expensive one) of TSWLM.
  • LudsLuds MIA
    Posts: 1,986
    I don't agree with that. It's certainly another popcorn flick, with a huge budget and a huge set, but I really don't get the sense of remake. Possibly because it's a better one ;)
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    edited March 2011 Posts: 3,262
    Thanks, Disco Volante.
    Quoting BAIN123: As I said in the other thread, even Moore and Gilbert thought TSWLM was better
    (Moore has said many times that he felt it was the best Bond film he did).


    That's OK. Messrs. Moore and Gilbert have the right to be wrong if they wish. ;-)
    Quoting jaguar007: I was mentioning on another thread how I am really surprised at the love MR gets
    on this site, yet TSWLM gets a fair amount of hate.
    I find it a refreshing contrast myself. In most 007 fan forums, it's usually the reverse opinion concerning TSWLM and MR. In fairness, I originally saw MR(and for that matter, YOLT) prior to seeing TSWLM so that may somewhat color my perspective concerning these 2 films.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited March 2011 Posts: 11,189
    MR is very much a "remake" or at least " re-hash" of TSWLM

    -Transport vehicle vanishes in PTS
    -Amazing stunt in PTS (MR's is marred by cheap comedy)
    -Bond must track down people responsible for crime in PTS
    -Investigation leads him to meglomaniac villain and attractive main Bond girl (also an agent).
    -Meglomaniac villain kills other trecherious female
    -Towards the end villain reveals scheme of destroying mankind and starting new world.
    -A team of goodies come in and battle commences with the numerous baddies.
    -During this Bond has a one-on-one with villain and ends up killing him
    -Bond and girl have sex, are caught by their superiors - a casual quip is said
    - end credits.

    This formula occurs in both TSWLM and MR (hell, both even use sountracks from other films). Except the latter does it in an even more excessive manner than the former. The former was, despite being larger than life, more credible and less silly.

  • RogueThunderballRogueThunderball
    Posts: 306
    Oh this shouldn't even be a competition. TSWLM is far superior to MR in almost every way. MR takes the silliness so far OTT that I sometimes I can't even finish the movie. I'll admit the first half is pretty good but after that the whole thing becomes a travesty. So I'll take TSWLM over MR every time...
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited March 2011 Posts: 11,189
    Quoting RogueThunderball: Oh this shouldn't even be a competition. TSWLM is far superior to MR in almost
    every way. MR takes the silliness so far OTT that I sometimes I can't even
    finish the movie. I'll admit the first half is pretty good but after that the
    whole thing becomes a travesty. So I'll take TSWLM over MR every time...
    Finally, someone who is actually sensible ;)
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    edited March 2011 Posts: 3,262
    Quoting BAIN123: MR is very much a "remake" or at least " re-hash" of TSWLM

    Indeed. Just as TSWLM is a remake/re-hash of YOLT. And a good case can be made that YOLT is a remake/re-hash of DN. Sometimes(though not always) I like the remakes/rehashes better.
  • LudsLuds MIA
    edited March 2011 Posts: 1,986
    Quoting PrinceKamalKhan: Indeed. Just as TSWLM is a remake/re-hash of YOLT. And a good case can be made that YOLT is a remake/re-hash of DN. Sometimes(though not always) I like the remakes/rehashes better.
    MR did it
    TSWLM failed! ;)
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    MR is actually winning :-S

    It's certainly not a bad film but...really??
  • LudsLuds MIA
    Posts: 1,986
    Quoting BAIN123: MR is actually winning :-S



    It's certainly not a bad film but...really??
    No question about it sir! B-)
  • AgentJamesBond007AgentJamesBond007 Vesper’s grave
    Posts: 2,632
    Destroyed the tie between TSWLM and MR. Gave my vote to TSWLM, much more enjoyable film and Roger seems more relaxed in the film than Moonraker
  • jaguar007jaguar007
    Posts: 638
    Quoting RogueThunderball: Oh this shouldn't even be a competition. TSWLM is far superior to MR in almost every way. MR takes the silliness so far OTT that I sometimes I can't even finish the movie. I'll admit the first half is pretty good but after that the whole thing becomes a travesty. So I'll take TSWLM over MR every time...
    I agree, I don't understand all the hate for TSWLM here
  • GeorgeLazenbyGeorgeLazenby
    edited March 2011 Posts: 295
    Moonraker here. John Barry's presence alone wins it for me, but there's far more to it than that. Moonraker is a perfectly realized, dashing escapist romp that has enough going for it to forgive its forays into abject stupidity: A Barry score coupled with Ken Adam's sets, an at-times chilling and dryly humourous performance from Michael Lonsdale with some fantastic dialogue, the closest Moore ever got to the coolness, tone and feel of the 60s films (the centrefuge scene could have come right out of Thunderball), the last appearance of Bernard Lee and one of the best, the biblical themes given perfect resonance by Barry's most potent and beautiful Bond score, and so on and on.

    If the outer space elements of Moonraker, often mocked, had existed for no other reason than to turn John Barry's attention to the starry vastness of the heavens for inspiration then their existence would be entirely justified in my opinion. The model work for the space station was bloody cool and the moment Barry's "Flight Into Space" kicks into a march as the sun appears is one of the single most amazing moments in the history of film. The combination of Moore, Gilbert and the aforementioned Barry and Adam was a winning one. Moore was cool as a cucumber in this film, and never more at home to his own strengths in the role. "I have friends in low places" indeed.

    Again, while it's admittedly a stretch to place our cold war hero in space, we have to give kudos to the epic grandeur and class with which it was handled, and to the fact that it was given as a backdrop the fulfillment of Drax's chilling and thought-provoking God complex. The villain plot in Moonraker draws you into the movie more than most because it touches a lot of deep nerves. "Jaws! You obey me! Expel them!" Brilliant. Contrary to most I hail Jaws' "conversion" as one of the series' greatest moments.

    On the whole, Moonraker delivers for me on so many levels. Spy on the other hand, while I love lots about it has, on the whole always failed to totally engage me.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    Whilst I certainly agree that MR has quite a few positive points (the John Barry score, the centrefuge scene, Ken Adam etc) Spy is far less outrageous and doesn't "jump the shark" in the same way MR does.

    Currently MR is #18 on my rankings whilst Spy is #2
  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    TSWLM by a long way.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited March 2011 Posts: 11,189
    I now think of MR as a bit like Avatar - a film which is all about the impressive visuals and SFX.

    Both basically have the "bigger is better" mentality.
  • LudsLuds MIA
    Posts: 1,986
    Quoting BAIN123: Spy is far less outrageous and doesn't "jump the shark" in the same way MR does.
    MR's outrageousness isn't a problem to me. The story is fluid, Bond is sent to investigate, meets Drax, uses Corine to gain information which leads him to Venice, sees Goodhead and follows her, leads him to Brazil and the Amazon. As an investigation, it's one of the most sensible and easy to follow movies in the series. The fact that it deals with Space isn't an issue to me as the effects are great, the score is outstanding and the performance by Moore and Chiles is far superior to the horrendous dreaded attempt at acting by the inept Barbara Bach. There's no question in my mind that casting a competent actress as Anya would have made a huge difference. But as is, with the 2nd worst performance by a leading lady in the Franchise, she may as well be wearing a clown outfit the entire time: She's utterly incapable of portraying physical toughness and spy believability, which makes Moore's look like a farce as well.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    Agreed Barbara Bach is as wooden as a plank but I really don't think Louis Chiles is THAT much better to be honest.

    Bach's wooden acting (in all honesty) doesn't really bother me that much. She has a couple of very good qualities about her in that film ;-)

    To be brutally blunt Moonraker is entertaining but a complete farce. At least Spy takes itself (a bit) more seriously as an adventure film.
  • RogueThunderballRogueThunderball
    Posts: 306
    Quoting BAIN123: Agreed Barbara Bach is as wooden as a plank but I really don't think Louis Chiles is THAT much better to be honest.
    I've always thought Lois Chiles gave a much more wooden performance than Bach did.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited March 2011 Posts: 11,189
    Quoting RogueThunderball:

    Agreed Barbara Bach is as wooden as a plank but I really don't think Louis
    Chiles is THAT much better to be honest.
    I've
    always thought Lois Chiles gave a much more wooden performance than Bach did.

    I don't know about that but nonetheless she did sound a bit...flat. Then again Bond girls haven't always been known for their acting skills.
  • jaguar007jaguar007
    edited March 2011 Posts: 638
    Quoting BAIN123: but nonetheless she did sound a bit...flat.
    Lois Chiles was certainly more flat than Barbara Bach, and I'm not just talking about how she sounded :-D
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