TSWLM v/s MR

GeorgeLazenby

Quoting BAIN123: Spy is far less outrageous and doesn't "jump the shark" in the same way MR does.

I don't think a film being "far less outrageous" automatically makes it better. In any case I don't think that MR "jumped the shark" as it were. There were some really stupid bits, most of them involving Jaws, however if you look beyond these you see that at its core Moonraker is fundamentally a solid piece of Bondian awesomeness that just happens to have some crap grafted on (compared to, say, TWINE, which is solidly crap through and through). For my money Moonraker's relatively few really stupid bits are less damaging to the film as a whole than are Spy's significantly weaker score, villain, leading lady, and overall dullness (imho).

BAIN123

I'm one of the few that thinks TWINE is a better film than MR. More compelling, more intriguing but lets save that for another time ;)

GeorgeLazenby

Quoting BAIN123: TWINE is a better film than MR

:-t

BAIN123

yep, and I've been a Bond fan for 15 years now (since the age of 10)

;)

Luds

Quoting BAIN123: I'm one of the few that thinks TWINE is a better film than MR. More compelling, more intriguing but lets save that for another time

It certainly could be with a decent Bond performance, alas! ;)

Quoting BAIN123: Agreed Barbara Bach is as wooden as a plank but I really don't think Louis Chiles is THAT much better to be honest.



Bach's wooden acting (in all honesty) doesn't really bother me that much. She has a couple of very good qualities about her in that film ;)



To be brutally blunt Moonraker is entertaining but a complete farce. At least Spy takes itself (a bit) more seriously as an adventure film.

Chiles isn't all that good good, but I find her performance satisfactory. Bach I found to be cringe-worthy every time she opens her mouth, and well unlike many others I suppose, I find her absolutely freakish looking. She looks like an Alien! >-)

Here's Bach's reaction when she discovers Jaws in her train car:



Image edited by St_George - Barbara Bach just loves her some Jaws, she does... ;)
Image reset to her ugly mug by Luds ;)

GeorgeLazenby

There was far more wrong with it than just that, though that would be an awfully good place to start. ;)

BAIN123

Quoting Luds: Chiles isn't all that good good, but I find her performance satisfactory. Bach I
found to be cringe-worthy every time she opens her mouth, and well unlike many
others I suppose, I find her absolutely freakish looking. She looks like an
Alien! >-)

Wow, you clearly have high standards. I think you're being hugely unfair.

1. Criticising an actress because you see her as "freakish" looking doesn't seem fair game.
2. You're plain wrong ;)

Luds

Well if she was just plain ugly but capable to act, like say, MayDay, it would be fine. The fact is that a paper bag could teach her how to act AND she's freakish looking ;)

BAIN123

Common, Grace Jones couldn't act either :p

And if either Barbara Bach or Grace Jones came up and propositioned me, I know which one I'd pick ;)

Luds

Jones at least looked menacing! And as for wedding proposal, well by all means, pick your choice, I'd gladly refuse either!

TheWizardOfIce

Quoting GeorgeLazenby: Moonraker here. John Barry's presence alone wins it for me, but there's far more to it than that. Moonraker is a perfectly realized, dashing escapist romp that has enough going for it to forgive its forays into abject stupidity: A Barry score coupled with Ken Adam's sets, an at-times chilling and dryly humourous performance from Michael Lonsdale with some fantastic dialogue, the closest Moore ever got to the coolness, tone and feel of the 60s films (the centrefuge scene could have come right out of Thunderball), the last appearance of Bernard Lee and one of the best, the biblical themes given perfect resonance by Barry's most potent and beautiful Bond score, and so on and on.



If the outer space elements of Moonraker, often mocked, had existed for no other reason than to turn John Barry's attention to the starry vastness of the heavens for inspiration then their existence would be entirely justified in my opinion. The model work for the space station was bloody cool and the moment Barry's "Flight Into Space" kicks into a march as the sun appears is one of the single most amazing moments in the history of film. The combination of Moore, Gilbert and the aforementioned Barry and Adam was a winning one. Moore was cool as a cucumber in this film, and never more at home to his own strengths in the role. "I have friends in low places" indeed.



Again, while it's admittedly a stretch to place our cold war hero in space, we have to give kudos to the epic grandeur and class with which it was handled, and to the fact that it was given as a backdrop the fulfillment of Drax's chilling and thought-provoking God complex. The villain plot in Moonraker draws you into the movie more than most because it touches a lot of deep nerves. "Jaws! You obey me! Expel them!" Brilliant. Contrary to most I hail Jaws' "conversion" as one of the series' greatest moments.



On the whole, Moonraker delivers for me on so many levels. Spy on the other hand, while I love lots about it has, on the whole always failed to totally engage me.

Agree with everything said here. TSWLM has some great moments but is less than the sum of its parts and I always find it tends to drag a bit. MR on the another hand rattles along at a ridiculous pace and although it has some embarrassing moments is only a small amount of editing away from being an absolute classic.

Cut Jaws flapping and the circus and the PTS is one of the best, the centrifuge and the pheasant shoot and Corinnes death are played straight and are almost Fleming-esque. The gondola chase is a bit superfluous but cut the hovercraft ending (simultaneously losing the pigeon) and youre into the death of the scientists which again is quite a dark scene. A good fight in the museum and we're already halfway through. The carnival and cable car sequences both have the potential to be solid Bond if you hold back on the Jaws comedy moments (is there anything more sinister than Jaws in the clown suit walking down the alley?). Obviously not that happy with Bond going into space but can there be any other logical conclusion if we are to avoid another Bond-battles-the-villains-cohorts-in-an-underground-base climax?

At the end of the day Cubby said he always put every penny up on the screen and has that ever been more evident than in MR? OK its not FRWL or OHMSS (but then nor is TSWLM) but you cant deny that MR doesnt give you sensational value for your ticket in providing sheer entertainment with Rog, Ken Adam and John Barry at the very top of their games.

BAIN123

I think you would be one of the VERY few males on earth who would turn down a night with Barbara Bach (young or old).

BAIN123

Quoting TheWizardOfIce: the pheasant shoot and Corinnes death are played straight and are almost
Fleming-esque

Agreed about Corinnes death which is an excellent sequence but I don't know about the pheasant shooting bit. Rog virtually winks at the audience (and I like that scene).

DarthDimi

MR is the better film. Its mood, music and acting surpass anything from TSWLM.

jaguar007

Quoting TheWizardOfIce: Cut Jaws flapping and the circus and the PTS is one of the best

You are right, it is one of the best PTS. However I think TSWLM it THE BEST PTS.

People keep talking about how much better a villain Drax is than Stromberg. I disagree, I think Drax was rather stupid (more to the point the script went too out of its way to provide some action). Bond went to talk to Drax, who at that point was not a suspect. Drax then tries to have Bond killed on his property. What a way to not draw suspicion to yourself @-)

BAIN123

Quoting jaguar007: However I think TSWLM it THE BEST PTS

Ditto. There is no cheap comedy in the TSWLM PTS unlike MR's. Plus, the former is a damm site more plausable. How the hell can Bond miss a massive bloke like Jaws in such a small aircraft?

CHEEEAAAPP!!

JBFan626

TSWLM me is the more

Quoting RogueThunderball:

Quoting BAIN123: Agreed Barbara Bach is as wooden as a plank
but I really don't think Louis Chiles is THAT much better to be honest.

I've always thought Lois Chiles gave a much more
wooden performance than Bach did.

Completely agree! There has definitely been a lot of (unmerited IMO) animosity towards Barbara Bach on mi6. Her role in that Caveman movie compared to Lois Chiles turn in the Great Gatsby is often cited as an example of Chiles' superior acting ability. Rubbish. Look at their respective performance in the two Bond films. Bach's XXX had a lot more chemistry with Moore's Bond than Goodhead did. Anya's character is simply a much better written and believable role. Goodhead comes across as a precursor to Christmas Jones--completely unbelievable as a space engineer.

OHMSS

Quoting JBFan626: Goodhead comes across as a precursor to Christmas Jones--completely unbelievable as a space engineer.

My thoughts exactly!

On the pre-credits sequences alone: TSWLM wins and only because the MR parachute sequence is spoilt by Jaws flapping his arms!

GeorgeLazenby

Spy's PTS is good, I'll admit that. But it's all downhill from there...literally and figuratively haha

Luds

Quoting BAIN123: I think you would be one of the VERY few males on earth who would turn down a night with Barbara Bach (young or old).

Don't kid yourself about that. There are plenty of people who don't like her face, her gigantic freakish eyes. Not like she's the uglies person in the world, not even the ugliest of all Bond girls, but when combined with acting skills, it's catastrophic. Richards was just as incompetent, but at least looked good.

Samuel001

Quoting Luds:

Quoting BAIN123: I think you would be one of the VERY few males
on earth who would turn down a night with Barbara Bach (young or
old).

Don't kid yourself about that. There are plenty of
people who don't like her face, her gigantic freakish eyes. Not like she's the
uglies person in the world, not even the ugliest of all Bond girls, but when
combined with acting skills, it's catastrophic. Richards was just as
incompetent, but at least looked good.

I'm in agreement with Luds here. I don't find her attractive in the slightest. Her face, her eyes, indeed the whole "alien" argument is spot on in my view. Her acting skills also being what they are, make her one of the worst Bond girls in my opinion. Hell, some films had better secondary girls!

saunders

Barbara Bach looks the spitting image of the puppet girlfriend in the Dolmio pasta sauce advert, and yet I wouldn't kick her out of bed, not really sure what that says about me!

Anyway as far as which film is better, thematically they are both very similar but for me it boils down to the fact that I just felt the chap (Victor) looking amazed then looking at his wine bottle, was far more convincing on the beach when the Lotus drove out the water in TSWLM than he was sitting at the Venetian cafe when the Bondola drove past in MR. I'm not blaming his acting style, for he is truly gifted in what is a small though integral and challenging role, but I just felt the Sardinian beach location lends itself far better to the drunken tourist scenario than the more refined cultural landscape of Venice.

jaguar007

Quoting saunders: I just felt the chap (Victor) looking amazed then looking at his wine bottle, was far more convincing on the beach when the Lotus drove out the water in TSWLM than he was sitting at the Venetian cafe when the Bondola drove past in MR.

:-j

St_George

Love MR as I do (the cinematography, sets and score are all outstanding and Sir Rog-driven Carry On-esque humour great fun), for me though, Spy is simply the s*** - and probably always will be.

The extraordinary Liparus set; the even more extraordinary cliff jump stunt; the war film-stylee climax; the plot that sees the British and the Russkies joining forces and the heroine seeking to kill the hero; Carly Simon doing it better than any other singer; Jaws (more carnivore than clown here); XXX's assets; Caroline Munro's assets as well, of course; the brilliant titles; the cool underwater villain's lair that is Atlantis; the submersible Lotus and the wetbike; the majesty of the Pyramids, the touristy beauty of Sardinia and the dramatic starkness of the Pacific Ocean; and, naturally, Sir Rog's 007 coming into his own. Spy, frankly, is Bond and beyond...! :)

BAIN123

Quoting St_George: Spy, frankly, is Bond and beyond...! :-)

:-D :-D :-D

DaltonCraig007

I have MR #4 and TSWLM #8.

JBFan626

Quoting St_George: Love MR as I do (the cinematography, sets and score are all outstanding and Sir
Rog-driven Carry On-esque humour great fun), for me though, Spy is simply the
s*** - and probably always will be.

The extraordinary Liparus set; the
even more extraordinary cliff jump stunt; the war film-stylee climax; the plot
that sees the British and the Russkies joining forces and the heroine seeking to
kill the hero; Carly Simon doing it better than any other singer; Jaws (more
carnivore than clown here); XXX's assets; Caroline Munro's assets as well, of
course; the brilliant titles; the cool underwater villain's lair that is
Atlantis; the submersible Lotus and the wetbike; the majesty of the Pyramids,
the touristy beauty of Sardinia and the dramatic starkness of the Pacific Ocean;
and, naturally, Sir Rog's 007 coming into his own. Spy, frankly, is Bond and
beyond...! :-)

Thank you! This is so refreshing to read! All I ever hear around these parts is how TSWLM is so bad, Barbara Bach looks like an alien, the villain is weak, Moore is a goof :-@ While to each is own on the Bond girl, I just have no idea where the rest of this is coming from. TSWLM is the complete package in a Bond film as far as I'm concerned for all the reasons you list above.

The_Reaper

Spy for me. #5 on my list, MR is in the teens somewhere. Spy has more confidence, a stronger story, better action and an overall better feel to it. I love MR and the space stuff is cool, IMO, it never bothered me. But it lacks focus at times, kinda just jumps around, like people didn't know what was happening.

I find Spy very self aware and that final fight on the sub is amazing. Great flick all around, really strong entry in Bond's canon.

jaguar007

Quoting The_Reaper: final fight on the sub is amazing

Agreed! It the sub final battle is one of the best in the entire series. There is a good reason it is one of the most iconic Bond films of them all (right after GF, DN, and YOLT).

00Beast

Both TSWLM and MR are essentially the same "type" of Bond movie, what with the power-hungry, destroy-the-world main villains, Jaws as a henchman, unique base of operations, and lots of fantasy fun. If I had my pick, I'd choose TSWLM. It has less goofy and chessy moments, a better portrayal of Jaws, more entertaining action, and a better performance by Roger Moore. As for the girls, both Holly Goodhead and Anya Amasova get on my nerves, but I'd take Anya over Holly anyday! However, Hugo Drax is a better main villain overall than Karl Stromberg.