Indiana Jones

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  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,217
    I have absolutely no problem with the premise of "Crystal Skull" ; it was the execution that was problematic.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    Risico007 wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    I mean I don’t see why you can’t explain the things you dislike? A lot of us would be happy to have a mature conversation about whatever it is.

    Ok you asked for it……

    Indy is still an atheist!!’ Like seriously he sees the power of god not once but twice….


    The line about it not about what you believe but how strong you believe just reeks of bullshit all religions are the same be good to yourself flower power hippie dippie crap that just annoys me……


    I mean I don’t want to get into a religious debate here and everyone here knows I am a devout Christian so possibly I am making a mountain out of a molehill

    But he saw Aliens he Saw the power of god he saw the stones he saw immortal men and power of well god again but to be more specific the power of Christ …. And yet it’s all in how strong you believe


    Sorry Indy in the universe of your films the lady who the aliens killed couldn’t just be like “well I don’t believe in you anymore”

    The guy killed by the wrong grail couldn’t say “I don’t believe in the grail” and get his health back

    It doesn’t work like that

    Ok I am going to try and just be calm here but yeah that is the secret thing that bothered me…

    Either leave religion out of you character or have them believe but don’t have the guy keep not believing only to believe at the end….

    I now fear this thread will turn into a Christian vs atheist argument and again I don’t want that I want a discussion of the films and the trailer…

    I'm actually siding with @Risico007 here, despite the fact that I am an atheist. ;-)

    After everything that Indy's been through, all that he has seen, including confirmation of the Ark's hidden powers, the Cup of Christ and whatnot, he must be a strong believer. Naturally, he would be a believer in all things supernatural, not just Christian myth. He's seen dark magic in India too...

    But an atheist? Not really. A scientist, of course. It'd be interesting to learn about his scientific views after all his adventures.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489

    However, in the last film, he sees aliens, mind control and other dimensions. It would blow the idea of God - any God - out the window.

    I am afraid I dont follow your logic.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    It is a valid point, to be fair. And it's one of the reasons that I always felt it was best to leave it as a trilogy. One of the things that made Indy compelling was that he was an atheist who ended up in the middle of a religious/supernatural hunt, and by the end of the third film it looked like he had finally accepted some sort of belief in God.

    However, in the last film, he sees aliens, mind control and other dimensions. It would blow the idea of God - any God - out the window. He does end in the film in a church, but there's no doubting that religion has taken a back seat by this point.

    So, the lines in the trailer may be taken out of context depending on the source of the power that they are messing with in the upcoming film. It may be another religious artifact, it may be more supernatural. What doesn't make sense in the trailer could make sense in the film.

    I think I see what you mean. He can start thinking "bigger" and look beyond mere Christian myth. But we can assume that he would still believe in something "higher", seeing the power of the cup and the ark. He wouldn't be a cold atheist bastard like me, surely. ;-) If I went through the events of these films, I'd be looking for something more too. I might not be willing to simply adopt Christian views just like that, but my science would gain a Lovecraftian cosmic dimension for sure. ;-)
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,217

    However, in the last film, he sees aliens, mind control and other dimensions. It would blow the idea of God - any God - out the window.

    I am afraid I dont follow your logic.

    How so?
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,217

    However, in the last film, he sees aliens, mind control and other dimensions. It would blow the idea of God - any God - out the window.

    I am afraid I dont follow your logic.

    How so?
    Not to get into a theological struggle, I’ll just say that I also don’t follow the logic.; aliens, mind control and other dimensions in no way precludes the existence of God.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,217
    talos7 wrote: »

    However, in the last film, he sees aliens, mind control and other dimensions. It would blow the idea of God - any God - out the window.

    I am afraid I dont follow your logic.

    How so?
    Not to get into a theological struggle, I’ll just say that I also don’t follow the logic.; aliens, mind control and other dimensions in no way precludes the existence of God.

    I'm fairly sure they're not mentioned in the Bible, but I'd have to ask a priest to be sure! :)
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    It is a valid point, to be fair. And it's one of the reasons that I always felt it was best to leave it as a trilogy. One of the things that made Indy compelling was that he was an atheist who ended up in the middle of a religious/supernatural hunt, and by the end of the third film it looked like he had finally accepted some sort of belief in God.

    However, in the last film, he sees aliens, mind control and other dimensions. It would blow the idea of God - any God - out the window. He does end in the film in a church, but there's no doubting that religion has taken a back seat by this point.

    So, the lines in the trailer may be taken out of context depending on the source of the power that they are messing with in the upcoming film. It may be another religious artifact, it may be more supernatural. What doesn't make sense in the trailer could make sense in the film.

    I think I see what you mean. He can start thinking "bigger" and look beyond mere Christian myth. But we can assume that he would still believe in something "higher", seeing the power of the cup and the ark. He wouldn't be a cold atheist bastard like me, surely. ;-) If I went through the events of these films, I'd be looking for something more too. I might not be willing to simply adopt Christian views just like that, but my science would gain a Lovecraftian cosmic dimension for sure. ;-)

    Indeed! In the end, it's his giving in to faith that saves the life of his father after all. That's why it works so well as the final scene of a trilogy.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    edited December 2022 Posts: 8,217
    talos7 wrote: »

    However, in the last film, he sees aliens, mind control and other dimensions. It would blow the idea of God - any God - out the window.

    I am afraid I dont follow your logic.

    How so?
    Not to get into a theological struggle, I’ll just say that I also don’t follow the logic.; aliens, mind control and other dimensions in no way precludes the existence of God.

    I'm fairly sure they're not mentioned in the Bible, but I'd have to ask a priest to be sure! :)
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    It is a valid point, to be fair. And it's one of the reasons that I always felt it was best to leave it as a trilogy. One of the things that made Indy compelling was that he was an atheist who ended up in the middle of a religious/supernatural hunt, and by the end of the third film it looked like he had finally accepted some sort of belief in God.

    However, in the last film, he sees aliens, mind control and other dimensions. It would blow the idea of God - any God - out the window. He does end in the film in a church, but there's no doubting that religion has taken a back seat by this point.

    So, the lines in the trailer may be taken out of context depending on the source of the power that they are messing with in the upcoming film. It may be another religious artifact, it may be more supernatural. What doesn't make sense in the trailer could make sense in the film.

    I think I see what you mean. He can start thinking "bigger" and look beyond mere Christian myth. But we can assume that he would still believe in something "higher", seeing the power of the cup and the ark. He wouldn't be a cold atheist bastard like me, surely. ;-) If I went through the events of these films, I'd be looking for something more too. I might not be willing to simply adopt Christian views just like that, but my science would gain a Lovecraftian cosmic dimension for sure. ;-)

    Indeed! In the end, it's his giving in to faith that saves the life of his father after all. That's why it works so well as the final scene of a trilogy.

    Ultimately, when it comes to a belief in God, the Bible is irrelevant.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,217
    talos7 wrote: »
    talos7 wrote: »

    However, in the last film, he sees aliens, mind control and other dimensions. It would blow the idea of God - any God - out the window.

    I am afraid I dont follow your logic.

    How so?
    Not to get into a theological struggle, I’ll just say that I also don’t follow the logic.; aliens, mind control and other dimensions in no way precludes the existence of God.

    I'm fairly sure they're not mentioned in the Bible, but I'd have to ask a priest to be sure! :)
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    It is a valid point, to be fair. And it's one of the reasons that I always felt it was best to leave it as a trilogy. One of the things that made Indy compelling was that he was an atheist who ended up in the middle of a religious/supernatural hunt, and by the end of the third film it looked like he had finally accepted some sort of belief in God.

    However, in the last film, he sees aliens, mind control and other dimensions. It would blow the idea of God - any God - out the window. He does end in the film in a church, but there's no doubting that religion has taken a back seat by this point.

    So, the lines in the trailer may be taken out of context depending on the source of the power that they are messing with in the upcoming film. It may be another religious artifact, it may be more supernatural. What doesn't make sense in the trailer could make sense in the film.

    I think I see what you mean. He can start thinking "bigger" and look beyond mere Christian myth. But we can assume that he would still believe in something "higher", seeing the power of the cup and the ark. He wouldn't be a cold atheist bastard like me, surely. ;-) If I went through the events of these films, I'd be looking for something more too. I might not be willing to simply adopt Christian views just like that, but my science would gain a Lovecraftian cosmic dimension for sure. ;-)

    Indeed! In the end, it's his giving in to faith that saves the life of his father after all. That's why it works so well as the final scene of a trilogy.

    Ultimately, when it comes to a belief in God, the Bible is irrelevant.

    That's us saying that, though. It's not an irrelevancy to the films that use it as a blueprint, and quite literally take relics from it and insert them into the plots.
  • Posts: 3,276
    It's good to see Ford flying the Millennium Falcon for one last ride...
    ezv8Yeh.png
    I am guessing that is a time rift/portal created by the Dial of Destiny.

    It's the front of a Heinkel 111 long range german bomber from WW2.
    HeinkelHe111.jpg

    And from the Sicily set of Indy 5:
    zGZDQlq.jpg
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    There’s a difference in having a belief or faith in something intangible to actually witnessing something happen.

    If God proved to exist, I wouldn’t believe in him because I KNOW he exists rather than believe.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    edited December 2022 Posts: 25,144
    Zekidk wrote: »
    It's good to see Ford flying the Millennium Falcon for one last ride...
    ezv8Yeh.png
    I am guessing that is a time rift/portal created by the Dial of Destiny.

    It's the front of a Heinkel 111 long range german bomber from WW2.
    HeinkelHe111.jpg

    And from the Sicily set of Indy 5:
    zGZDQlq.jpg

    I was joking though thanks for posting those images, I have not been following the production of DOD.

    ---

    Watching the opening of Raiders of the Lost Ark, this film is a Masterpiece, every shot, the score and sound design is world class. As much as I like other films in the original trilogy nothing comes close to Raiders... One of the greatest movie ever made IMO.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,041
    My wife and I loved all the IJ movies so far, to a differing degree, but even KOTCS was worth it. After watching the first trailer for IJ5, we decided we'd go to a theatre the first time since NTTD to see it there. But there's still more than half a year to go :-).
  • edited December 2022 Posts: 12,473
    I think it’s cool both Craig’s Bond and Ford’s Indy end with five total films. It’s a satisfying number. Not too many, not too little. Though I wouldn’t have minded more for either had circumstances been different.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    edited December 2022 Posts: 25,144
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    My wife and I loved all the IJ movies so far, to a differing degree, but even KOTCS was worth it. After watching the first trailer for IJ5, we decided we'd go to a theatre the first time since NTTD to see it there. But there's still more than half a year to go :-).

    DOD is a film that you can not miss at the cinema. I watched KOTCS in the afternoon at the cinema when released it was literally empty that day, despite my issues with the film I enjoyed the experience.

    ---

    The scene when Indy is drawing on the black board, the shadows that Spielberg is projecting onto the blackboard is genius, this scene 41 years later still gives me chills. Like many superhero's and it is is more subtle with Indy there is a duality, the shadows indicate that.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    There’s a difference in having a belief or faith in something intangible to actually witnessing something happen.

    If God proved to exist, I wouldn’t believe in him because I KNOW he exists rather than believe.

    Good point!
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    edited December 2022 Posts: 9,041
    I have always thought that KOTCS was a worthy successor of the "1930s" Indy movies and transformed to the fifties with a lot of love of detail. And its basic concept not really more outrageous than that pseudo-Christian nonsense in ROTLA, the taking-your-heart-out bit in IJ2 or the stuff in TLC. Enjoy it or don't. I definitely did. And I've never been disappointed by anything that Steven Spielberg had his hand in. So I'm looking forward to the fifth installment.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited December 2022 Posts: 5,970
    Surely Indy’s skepticism is still valid because just because you’ve witnessed things that coincide with the Bible and of religious teaching, it doesn’t necessarily prove the existence of God as certain religions know him, It just proves the existence of something?
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    I have always thought that KOTCS was a worthy successor of the "1930s" Indy movies and transformed to the fifties with a lot of love of detail. And its basic concept not really more outrageous than that pseudo-Christian nonsense in ROTLA, the taking-your-heart-out bit in IJ2 or the stuff in TLC. Enjoy it or don't. I definitely did. And I'venever been disappointed by anything that Steven Spielberg had his hand in. So I'm looking forward to the fifth installment.

    I don't hate KOTCS as some do. It's still a fairly enjoyable film. It couldn't take us back to the glory of Raiders and some of its choices are 'debatable' but as an action-packed adventure film, it didn't disappoint me.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    edited December 2022 Posts: 9,041
    Denbigh wrote: »
    Surely Indy’s skepticism is still valid because just because you’ve witnessed things that coincide with the Bible and of religious teaching, it doesn’t necessarily prove the existence of God as certain religions know him, It just proves the existence of something?

    Ohmygod...do we really want to get into that HERE? I've decided I'm an atheist now because my Evangelical relatives in the U.S. first got me thinking about my somewhat agnostic being some 45 years ago (which must have gone awry from their standpoint, namely in the exactly opposite direction), but hey, these are *fantasy movies*, and some stuff that sounds like it's from the bible simply fits into them as well as modern sci-fi does. It just has the same relevance as the Brothers Grimm's fairy tales. Designed and created to fascinate people. Not more.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,144
    As much as I love Marion in Raiders... I really hope she does not appear in DOD, Marion was terrible in KOTCS, the film literally went off the edge of a cliff waterfall when Marion turned up.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,970
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    Surely Indy’s skepticism is still valid because just because you’ve witnessed things that coincide with the Bible and of religious teaching, it doesn’t necessarily prove the existence of God as certain religions know him, It just proves the existence of something?
    Ohmygod...do we really want to get into that HERE?
    in-bruges-shrug.gif
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,217
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    I have always thought that KOTCS was a worthy successor of the "1930s" Indy movies and transformed to the fifties with a lot of love of detail. And its basic concept not really more outrageous than that pseudo-Christian nonsense in ROTLA, the taking-your-heart-out bit in IJ2 or the stuff in TLC. Enjoy it or don't. I definitely did. And I'venever been disappointed by anything that Steven Spielberg had his hand in. So I'm looking forward to the fifth installment.

    I don't hate KOTCS as some do. It's still a fairly enjoyable film. It couldn't take us back to the glory of Raiders and some of its choices are 'debatable' but as an action-packed adventure film, it didn't disappoint me.

    There's a lot of very enjoyable individual scenes throughout the entire thing which make it a step above the kind of blockbuster stuff we get nowadays. The warehouse scene in particular is just fantastic.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    edited December 2022 Posts: 25,144
    Pat Roach is a legend...

    MV5BMWRjNGIxOGUtNWExYy00ZGFjLTlkM2QtNzFhY2NjZTEyZTYyXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyMjI3NzE4MTM@._V1_FMjpg_UX600_.jpg

    Great recurring adversary for Indy and of course Bond in NSNA
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,970
    Pat Roach is a legend...
    Gone but certainly not forgotten.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    edited December 2022 Posts: 25,144
    Denbigh wrote: »
    Pat Roach is a legend...
    Gone but certainly not forgotten.

    Agreed died too young.

    ---

    Rewinding scenes whilst watching Raiders... the action is none stop and as good as it gets... outside Bond of course ;)
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    I have no issue with plot ideas for KOTCS. Totally fine with Indy discovering that ancient aliens visited Earth in the past. Totally fine with all the allusions to 50s pop culture cinema. I do love that image of Indy’s silhouette against the mushroom cloud to signal Indy entering a new era.

    I just wish the screenwriting was better. I don’t even blame David Koepp because I understand he was tasked with trying to please three different people (Lucas, Ford, and Spielberg) that had different sensibilities by cramming a bunch of different plot elements from entirely different scripts into one. It’s a mess. There’s baffling things like introducing a jungle plowing machine and doing NOTHING fun with it. You expect a commie is gonna get thrown into that grinder or something. But Indy just straight up blows it with a bazooka.

    I think what hurts it most is that it’s made by Spielberg because it’s clear his heart wasn’t in it. He was no longer that same guy who made the first three films. As much as I want to see the band get back together, I don’t think they have it anymore. So that’s partly why I’m intrigued about Indy 5 because with new filmmakers involved there’s at least potential for something better. But we’ll see.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,144
    'Truck! What truck!' which Bond film's are better than Raiders... if any?
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,217
    I have no issue with plot ideas for KOTCS. Totally fine with Indy discovering that ancient aliens visited Earth in the past. Totally fine with all the allusions to 50s pop culture cinema. I do love that image of Indy’s silhouette against the mushroom cloud to signal Indy entering a new era.

    I just wish the screenwriting was better. I don’t even blame David Koepp because I understand he was tasked with trying to please three different people (Lucas, Ford, and Spielberg) that had different sensibilities by cramming a bunch of different plot elements from entirely different scripts into one. It’s a mess. There’s baffling things like introducing a jungle plowing machine and doing NOTHING fun with it. You expect a commie is gonna get thrown into that grinder or something. But Indy just straight up blows it with a bazooka.

    I think what hurts it most is that it’s made by Spielberg because it’s clear his heart wasn’t in it. He was no longer that same guy who made the first three films. As much as I want to see the band get back together, I don’t think they have it anymore. So that’s partly why I’m intrigued about Indy 5 because with new filmmakers involved there’s at least potential for something better. But we’ll see.

    I could not agree more with this entire post.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,420
    'Truck! What truck!' which Bond film's are better than Raiders... if any?

    I love Bond, but for me the answer is: none of ‘em.
    Bond is a brilliant series of course, but Indy has produced three pretty much perfectly-hewn films, where Bond has been a lot more variable. And I’d say Raiders is a bona fide perfect movie: not sure Bond has quite produced any of those. Maybe Goldfinger and Casino Royale come the closest.
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