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The Gardner Novels

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  • 007InVT007InVT Classified
    Posts: 893
    dkem91 wrote:
    I'm currently reading Scorpius; its OK, not as great as his earlier novels, it has its moments though. As others have already stated; the first three are the best.

    Next on my list as well as Never Send Flowers.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    TheWizardOfIce wrote:
    'Respected reviewer'? Dear oh dear - and I have reread your post about 6 times just to make sure I'm reading it right. Don't want to make the same mistake twice.
    I'm sorry, I should have specified: a respected reviewer on AJB who is generally respected by the members of AJB rates it 9/10.
    ;)
    If you read the review, you will have seen that said reviewer is knowledgeable & well spoken, as well as highly detailed in his review(s).
    And my main point was that rating Icebreaker rather highly has more to do with individual taste than anything else. The book itself is well written from what I can tell (me being barely literate & all; sounding out the words as it were...). :P
  • timmertimmer
    edited April 2013 Posts: 4,622
    I cant' quibble the Gardner books. I couldn't even rank them 1-14 mainly because they all kind of resonate the same with me. I liked his early flirtations with a revived Spectre. I can see the appeal of Icebreaker too. It's got a few little twists, plenty of violence etc. I might have a couple of favourites but I'm not even sure which two. His work seems rather like a collected work. It's pretty consistent. I couldn't even begin to rank the titles. If someone were to pick any of his titles as a favourite, all the power. None of his books really stands out as easy best or easy worst for me. All I can say for sure is that I do like his style better than Benson's 6 efforts.
    For that matter I struggle to rank the Fleming titles. I am tempted to rank them all tied for first place. I love each one of them. Maybe this week, YOLT is my favourite, but next week it could be DN or GF. Meanwhile OHMSS is basically flawless. Greatness is greatness. Only the TMWTGG doesn't seem to have the same heft as the other titles, but its still a very exciting Fleming read.
  • Sir_James_MoloneySir_James_Moloney
    edited April 2013 Posts: 388
    The best thing I can say for Gardner (and I don't mean that disrespectfully) is that Licence Revoked was the first Bond novel I ever read and it led me onto Fleming.

    When I borrowed it from my school library I had no idea that Gardner wasn't the original Bond novelist so I assumed I was reading one of the books on which the film series was based.

    I was about 11 years old and I haven't read the book since but I still remember being quite impressed with the opening chapter which involved an assassin (I think) changing out of an elaborate disguise at either Gatwick or Heathrow airport.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    chrisisall wrote:
    TheWizardOfIce wrote:
    'Respected reviewer'? Dear oh dear - and I have reread your post about 6 times just to make sure I'm reading it right. Don't want to make the same mistake twice.
    I'm sorry, I should have specified: a respected reviewer on AJB who is generally respected by the members of AJB rates it 9/10.
    ;)
    If you read the review, you will have seen that said reviewer is knowledgeable & well spoken, as well as highly detailed in his review(s).
    And my main point was that rating Icebreaker rather highly has more to do with individual taste than anything else. The book itself is well written from what I can tell (me being barely literate & all; sounding out the words as it were...). :P

    Hmm.

    Not sure how one reconciles these comments with then awarding a 9/10 at the end of it all:

    'The premise of the novel, that an aging Nazi is attempting to resurrect the glories of the Third Reich, has been touched on by authors before, but while James Bond has confronted terrorists, they’ve never had such an ideological slant. Gardner doesn’t quite make the most of this angle and the motive of his central villain remains somewhat obscure. We have to take the strength of his organisation at face value. Equally his perplexing plot, with cross and double cross, duplicity and secrecy does not bear close examination. '

    'The web Gardner has weaved unravels badly at the end. He spends two whole chapters untying his knots (one of the episodes is even entitled “loose ends”) and Bond himself states “I find it hard to swallow.” It does seem odd that M sends his top agent to work without the full facts and even odder that the NSAA has been penetrated by several foreign agents who all wait for 007 to arrive before announcing their real interests. It’s odder still that von Gloda appears in broad daylight and no-one, not even Bond, makes a move on him.'

    At least the guy prefaces the whole thing further up the page with the comment that he is ignoring Fleming as it is taken as read that they are all better so the marks out of 10 only apply to Gardners work, which then makes more sense awarding a 9. Although that is still far too high IMO. Icebreaker not Gardner's worst but its the weakest of the first 4 or 5.

    However by giving ROH 1/10, NLF 3/10 yet the abysmal SF 4/10 he clearly shows himself to be just a fan with his own opinions which are no more or less valid than the rest of us. Dont really see why your singling him out as 'respected' (although could it be its because he agrees with you?). I much prefer Raymond Bensons reviews in his seminal Bedside Companion (no matter what you think of his own Bond novels, the guy has a lot more respect in the Bond world than this random poster on a fan site) or even our own Dragonpol despite his chronic NSF blindness!

    If we're marking out of 10 on a separate Gardner scale that doesnt apply to Fleming then I would go:

    LR - 9/10
    FSS - 7/10
    IB - 6/10
    ROH - 7/10
    NLF - 10/10
    NDMB - 8/10
    Scorpius - 7/10
    WLOD - 8/10
    BC - 4/10
    TMFB - 5/10
    DIF - 7/10
    NSF - 4/10
    SF - 1/10
    Cold - 2/10

    One question? I know Dragonpol does his best but why dont we have debates like that around here? Have I been labouring under the misapprehension all these years that this is the best Bond fansite forum? When you see all the troll crap we have had to put up with and interesting concepts like the 'bash your favourite Bond film' descending into trite teenage attempts at humour I'm starting to wonder am I missing something not being on AJB?
  • timmertimmer
    edited April 2013 Posts: 4,622
    I think it's hard to discuss the Gardner books unless you have read them recently, which personally I haven't. I read them all as they were published. However I can easily discuss Fleming as I re-read those titles regularly. And the movies of course most of us watch over and over again, so they are easy to kick around. Re-reading books though is more of a commitment, but bravo to those discussing Gardner. The discussions do bring back memories of the books for me, so they are enjoyable to read. Soon I am going to sit down and plough through all 14 titles again.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited April 2013 Posts: 17,789
    TheWizardOfIce wrote:
    If we're marking out of 10 on a separate Gardner scale that doesnt apply to Fleming then I would go:

    LR - 9/10
    FSS - 7/10
    IB - 6/10
    ROH - 7/10
    NLF - 10/10
    NDMB - 8/10
    Scorpius - 7/10
    WLOD - 8/10
    BC - 4/10
    TMFB - 5/10
    DIF - 7/10
    NSF - 4/10
    SF - 1/10
    Cold - 2/10
    Wow. Complete list of non- screenplay adaptions. Well done.
    TheWizardOfIce wrote:
    One question? I know Dragonpol does his best but why dont we have debates like that around here? Have I been labouring under the misapprehension all these years that this is the best Bond fansite forum?
    I'm starting to wonder am I missing something not being on AJB?
    AJB is a tad more adult, but the action there comes in waves. MI6 is fast & furious, but can be silly at times. IMO, both are the best, for somewhat different reasons.
  • Sir_James_MoloneySir_James_Moloney
    Posts: 388
    TheWizardOfIce wrote:
    One question? I know Dragonpol does his best but why dont we have debates like that around here? Have I been labouring under the misapprehension all these years that this is the best Bond fansite forum? When you see all the troll crap we have had to put up with and interesting concepts like the 'bash your favourite Bond film' descending into trite teenage attempts at humour I'm starting to wonder am I missing something not being on AJB?

    I agree with @chrisisall that the topics on AJB tend to be more in-depth an analytical but it can also be very quiet.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited April 2013 Posts: 9,117
    Sir_James_Moloney wrote:
    TheWizardOfIce wrote:
    One question? I know Dragonpol does his best but why dont we have debates like that around here? Have I been labouring under the misapprehension all these years that this is the best Bond fansite forum? When you see all the troll crap we have had to put up with and interesting concepts like the 'bash your favourite Bond film' descending into trite teenage attempts at humour I'm starting to wonder am I missing something not being on AJB?

    I agree with @chrisisall that the topics on AJB tend to be more in-depth an analytical but it can also be very quiet.

    Really? Right I'm off there for the rest of the night then to check the place out. I dont really know why I've never thought about it before. I suppose I used to be satisfied with the level of debate here but over recent weeks that has been sorely lacking.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited April 2013 Posts: 17,789
    I have all of Gardner's novels up to No Deals Mr Bond.... If I love that one I suppose I'll be pressed to continue...
    TheWizardOfIce wrote:
    I suppose I used to be satisfied with the level of debate here but over recent weeks that has been sorely lacking.
    Maybe, but it's still a totally fun place!
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,269
    TheWizardOfIce wrote:
    If you really have read all the Fleming books you need to have long hard look inside your soul then and ask if you can live with yourself.

    Saying Icebreaker is the best Bond book would be laughable but just about excusable if we were just discussing the best Gardner.

    If you're throwing all of Flemings work into the mix and still standing by that statement then you lay yourself wide open for people to label you a moron.

    Even Dragonpol would probably agree and he thinks Never Send Flowers is the greatest work of prose in the English language.

    Thanks for the honourable mention, Ice. And yes, I of course rank Fleming much higher than Gardner - ILF created the character. I see Gardner as a continuation author and judge him by a different scale. And no, I don't consider Never Send Flowers "the greatest work of prose in the English language" by any stretch. True, I'm very interested in it, but I know its limitations as a mere James Bond continuation novel. I'm writing a monograph on it - something akin to Dr. Andrew McNess's AVTAK book from 2011 - it might make you see the novel in a different light altogether, with any hope. I may make you a believer yet, though I have a hard act on my hands with yourself, Ice!
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    Dragonpol wrote:
    consider Never Send Flowers "the greatest work of prose in the English language"

    Really? Better than Shakespeare, Doyle, Wells or Fleming? Wow...
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited April 2013 Posts: 18,269
    TheWizardOfIce wrote:
    chrisisall wrote:
    TheWizardOfIce wrote:
    'Respected reviewer'? Dear oh dear - and I have reread your post about 6 times just to make sure I'm reading it right. Don't want to make the same mistake twice.
    I'm sorry, I should have specified: a respected reviewer on AJB who is generally respected by the members of AJB rates it 9/10.
    ;)
    If you read the review, you will have seen that said reviewer is knowledgeable & well spoken, as well as highly detailed in his review(s).
    And my main point was that rating Icebreaker rather highly has more to do with individual taste than anything else. The book itself is well written from what I can tell (me being barely literate & all; sounding out the words as it were...). :P

    Hmm.

    Not sure how one reconciles these comments with then awarding a 9/10 at the end of it all:

    'The premise of the novel, that an aging Nazi is attempting to resurrect the glories of the Third Reich, has been touched on by authors before, but while James Bond has confronted terrorists, they’ve never had such an ideological slant. Gardner doesn’t quite make the most of this angle and the motive of his central villain remains somewhat obscure. We have to take the strength of his organisation at face value. Equally his perplexing plot, with cross and double cross, duplicity and secrecy does not bear close examination. '

    'The web Gardner has weaved unravels badly at the end. He spends two whole chapters untying his knots (one of the episodes is even entitled “loose ends”) and Bond himself states “I find it hard to swallow.” It does seem odd that M sends his top agent to work without the full facts and even odder that the NSAA has been penetrated by several foreign agents who all wait for 007 to arrive before announcing their real interests. It’s odder still that von Gloda appears in broad daylight and no-one, not even Bond, makes a move on him.'

    At least the guy prefaces the whole thing further up the page with the comment that he is ignoring Fleming as it is taken as read that they are all better so the marks out of 10 only apply to Gardners work, which then makes more sense awarding a 9. Although that is still far too high IMO. Icebreaker not Gardner's worst but its the weakest of the first 4 or 5.

    However by giving ROH 1/10, NLF 3/10 yet the abysmal SF 4/10 he clearly shows himself to be just a fan with his own opinions which are no more or less valid than the rest of us. Dont really see why your singling him out as 'respected' (although could it be its because he agrees with you?). I much prefer Raymond Bensons reviews in his seminal Bedside Companion (no matter what you think of his own Bond novels, the guy has a lot more respect in the Bond world than this random poster on a fan site) or even our own Dragonpol despite his chronic NSF blindness!

    If we're marking out of 10 on a separate Gardner scale that doesnt apply to Fleming then I would go:

    LR - 9/10
    FSS - 7/10
    IB - 6/10
    ROH - 7/10
    NLF - 10/10
    NDMB - 8/10
    Scorpius - 7/10
    WLOD - 8/10
    BC - 4/10
    TMFB - 5/10
    DIF - 7/10
    NSF - 4/10
    SF - 1/10
    Cold - 2/10

    One question? I know Dragonpol does his best but why dont we have debates like that around here? Have I been labouring under the misapprehension all these years that this is the best Bond fansite forum? When you see all the troll crap we have had to put up with and interesting concepts like the 'bash your favourite Bond film' descending into trite teenage attempts at humour I'm starting to wonder am I missing something not being on AJB?

    Dragonpol wrote:
    TheWizardOfIce wrote:
    If you really have read all the Fleming books you need to have long hard look inside your soul then and ask if you can live with yourself.

    Saying Icebreaker is the best Bond book would be laughable but just about excusable if we were just discussing the best Gardner.

    If you're throwing all of Flemings work into the mix and still standing by that statement then you lay yourself wide open for people to label you a moron.

    Even Dragonpol would probably agree and he thinks Never Send Flowers is the greatest work of prose in the English language.

    Thanks for the honourable mention, Ice. And yes, I of course rank Fleming much higher than Gardner - ILF created the character. I see Gardner as a continuation author and judge him by a different scale. And no, I don't consider Never Send Flowers "the greatest work of prose in the English language" by any stretch. True, I'm very interested in it, but I know its limitations as a mere James Bond continuation novel. I'm writing a monograph on it - something akin to Dr. Andrew McNess's AVTAK book from 2011 - it might make you see the novel in a different light altogether, with any hope. I may make you a believer yet, though I have a hard act on my hands with yourself, Ice!

    There's your answer, chrisisall!
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    *chain successfully yanked*

    ;)
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,269
    chrisisall wrote:
    *chain successfully yanked*

    ;)

    confused.com
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    Dragonpol wrote:
    chrisisall wrote:
    *chain successfully yanked*

    ;)

    confused.com

    I was kidding you, good sir.
  • timmertimmer
    Posts: 4,622
    He yanked your chain, pulled it even. ;)
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited April 2013 Posts: 18,269
    chrisisall wrote:
    Dragonpol wrote:
    chrisisall wrote:
    *chain successfully yanked*

    ;)

    confused.com

    I was kidding you, good sir.

    Oh, I knew that! As old Ian might have said, "I'm not in the Shakespeare stakes."
  • 007InVT007InVT Classified
    Posts: 893
    chrisisall wrote:
    I have all of Gardner's novels up to No Deals Mr Bond.... If I love that one I suppose I'll be pressed to continue...
    TheWizardOfIce wrote:
    I suppose I used to be satisfied with the level of debate here but over recent weeks that has been sorely lacking.
    Maybe, but it's still a totally fun place!

    Read 'No Deals Mr Bond.' yet?

    It's at the library , so I might get that one next.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,269
    007InVT wrote:
    chrisisall wrote:
    I have all of Gardner's novels up to No Deals Mr Bond.... If I love that one I suppose I'll be pressed to continue...
    TheWizardOfIce wrote:
    I suppose I used to be satisfied with the level of debate here but over recent weeks that has been sorely lacking.
    Maybe, but it's still a totally fun place!

    Read 'No Deals Mr Bond.' yet?

    It's at the library , so I might get that one next.

    Yes, go for it!
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,269
    007InVT wrote:
    dkem91 wrote:
    I'm currently reading Scorpius; its OK, not as great as his earlier novels, it has its moments though. As others have already stated; the first three are the best.

    Next on my list as well as Never Send Flowers.

    Never Send Flowers     is a good one! You should enjoy it! I'm currently writing a monograph on that one!
  • 007InVT007InVT Classified
    Posts: 893
    Onto 'FSS' now. Already good. It's no Fleming but who is?
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,269
    007InVT wrote:
    Onto 'FSS' now. Already good. It's no Fleming but who is?

    Exactly. That's what you have to realise when approaching all of the Continuation Bonds 1968-2013.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Dragonpol wrote:
    007InVT wrote:
    Onto 'FSS' now. Already good. It's no Fleming but who is?

    Exactly. That's what you have to realise when approaching all of the Continuation Bonds 1968-2013.

    Woah there Dragonpol. I think you meant to say 1968-2003?

    Thats a fair enough comment reargding Amis and Gardners Bond output and to a certain extent Bensons. But theres no way I'm letting you include Faulks in with the rest of them. Absolute travesty of a Bond book.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,269
    TheWizardOfIce wrote:
    Dragonpol wrote:
    007InVT wrote:
    Onto 'FSS' now. Already good. It's no Fleming but who is?

    Exactly. That's what you have to realise when approaching all of the Continuation Bonds 1968-2013.

    Woah there Dragonpol. I think you meant to say 1968-2003?

    Thats a fair enough comment reargding Amis and Gardners Bond output and to a certain extent Bensons. But theres no way I'm letting you include Faulks in with the rest of them. Absolute travesty of a Bond book.

    Yes, I happen to agree on Faulks, almost impossible to read, but what of Deaver's Carte Blanche in 2011?
  • 007InVT007InVT Classified
    Posts: 893
    I preferred Deaver's but it was slow to get going. I also did not like the villain (not in a good way).

    Faulks was an easier read but felt less Bond.

    Roll on Solo to steady the ship.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,269
    007InVT wrote:
    I preferred Deaver's but it was slow to get going. I also did not like the villain (not in a good way).

    Faulks was an easier read but felt less Bond.

    Roll on Solo to steady the ship.

    Yes, I have a good feeling about Solo.
  • 007InVT007InVT Classified
    Posts: 893
    Just finished 'For Special Services'. Excellent! On par with License Renewed. The ending is a little contrived but the suspense is great.

    Hmm, what next? Onto 'No Deals Mr. Bond' perhaps.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited May 2013 Posts: 18,269
    007InVT wrote:
    Just finished 'For Special Services'. Excellent! On par with License Renewed. The ending is a little contrived but the suspense is great.

    Hmm, what next? Onto 'No Deals Mr. Bond' perhaps.

    Yes, For Special Services is a good one, if a little contrived at times, as you note. Still, John Gardner has proved a very hard act to follow.

  • 007InVT007InVT Classified
    edited May 2013 Posts: 893
    Yes, I feel like some of our members could (and have) written better attempts at least in passages.

    What do y'all make of this:

    http://teeritz.blogspot.com/2013/03/bond-fan-fiction-no-7.html
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