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'Bond is just as bad as the bad guys' - Timothy Dalton

UlyssesGamma_HoseUlyssesGamma_Hose
edited October 2012 in Bond Movies Posts: 73
In this fascinating 1989 interview (in which he refers to 'Licence Revoked'), Timothy Dalton describes the character of 007 thus: "he's just as as bad, he's a murderer, a killer. A cold, cruel, ruthless killer. He just happens to be on the side that's called good."



Whereas Pierce Brosnan once said (sorry I don't have the link), when asked how he'd want his son to see Bond; a good guy, a cool guy.

Intriguing to watch the films from this perspective. I'd say Lazenby and of course Moore played Bond as a hero, whereas Connery and Craig have more shades of grey.
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Comments

  • RogueAgentRogueAgent
    Posts: 12,526
    Bond is a killer pure and simple!
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    Bond is an assassin. A hitman. Always has been. He's not a policeman, reading villains their rights and cuffing them. He's paid to kill people and has a license to do so. I don't understand why there are people who insist on imposing ambiguity to what Bond does.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited October 2012 Posts: 11,189
    While I agree with the vast majority of Dalts interview ive always felt uncomfortable about that statement. True Bond is a dark shady character at times but he's also gentle and caring towards those who he considers vulnerable.

    He never reaches the depths of pure evil/madness that the likes of Drax/Grant/Dr No. Physically he's not deformed or in anyway "grotesque" either. The hints are his ""cold eyes" and "cruel mouth". Usually the villains are given far worse physical descriptions.

    Fleming once described Bond as "neither a good guy nor a bad guy".
  • myworldisenoughmyworldisenough
    Posts: 1,143
    Bond is of course a killer (ie licence to kill) but no way is he bad like the bad guys. A muderer? Seriously? He doesn't murder people, he kills the few (bad guys) to save the many. He's fighting the good fight, protecting our way of life against the morally corrupt and evil of this world.
  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    Posts: 12,837
    He hits and uses girls, kills tons of people without remorse, etc.

    Bonds a good guy but he's also in lots of ways just as bad as the villians. He's a mix of what Brosnan described and what Dalton described. He's an anti hero.
  • UlyssesGamma_HoseUlyssesGamma_Hose
    Posts: 73
    thelivingroyale wrote:
    He hits and uses girls, kills tons of people without remorse, etc.

    Sometimes there is kind of cumulative remorse. As Dalton says, "disaste for who he is, what he is and the world he's working in."
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    Bond never actually hits a woman in any of the books as far as I can remember. He voices his anger about them at times but I don't ever remember him hitting them. That was only in the films.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited October 2012 Posts: 17,798
    UlyssesGamma_Hose wrote:
    Sometimes there is kind of cumulative remorse. As Dalton says, "disaste for who he is, what he is and the world he's working in."

    And THAT'S what makes him a fascinating character!!!! THAT's why Dalton is my favourite Bond!! B-)
  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    Posts: 12,837
    UlyssesGamma_Hose wrote:
    thelivingroyale wrote:
    He hits and uses girls, kills tons of people without remorse, etc.

    Sometimes there is kind of cumulative remorse. As Dalton says, "disaste for who he is, what he is and the world he's working in."

    True, you can definetly see that with Dalton, and Craig.

    I think Dalton really understood the character more than any other Bond. He made comments like this but he also knew there had to be a bit of humour.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    thelivingroyale wrote:
    True, you can definetly see that with Dalton, and Craig.
    Honestly, I *still* don't see Craig as Bond, but his understanding of the character being similar to Dalton's makes his performance get me past that.
  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    Posts: 12,837
    chrisisall wrote:
    thelivingroyale wrote:
    True, you can definetly see that with Dalton, and Craig.
    Honestly, I *still* don't see Craig as Bond, but his understanding of the character being similar to Dalton's makes his performance get me past that.

    I think Dalton is better but Craig's cool.
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    UlyssesGamma_Hose wrote:
    ..Timothy Dalton describes the character of 007 thus: "he's just as as bad, he's a murderer, a killer. A cold, cruel, ruthless killer. He just happens to be on the side that's called good."

    Whereas Pierce Brosnan once said (sorry I don't have the link), when asked how he'd want his son to see Bond; a good guy, a cool guy.

    and THAT'S the difference between an actor who's gone back and deconstructed the source material and completely understands the character - as opposed to the other actor, who only grasps the superficial qualities..

  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    Posts: 12,837
    Brosnan understood the character, just a different version of it.

    I don't think every Bond has to be close to Fleming. I like how every actor has done his own thing with it. Dalton is my favourite, but if every Bond was like him, it'd be boring.
  • 001001
    Posts: 1,575
    Bond is a crime fighter so anything he does is to protect innocent people.
    He solves crimes.
    Some people say he shouldn't hit women, but if they are part of the criminals they should be hit.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited October 2012 Posts: 11,189
    thelivingroyale wrote:
    Brosnan understood the character, just a different version of it.

    Well I once heard Brozza say that there were only "seven books" in an interview. I like him as Bond but that was embarrassing.

    I think Brozza probably put a bit of his own charisma and "boyish charm" into Bond. Not necessarily Fleming but it worked.

  • UlyssesGamma_HoseUlyssesGamma_Hose
    edited October 2012 Posts: 73
    HASEROT wrote:


    and THAT'S the difference between an actor who's gone back and deconstructed the source material and completely understands the character - as opposed to the other actor, who only grasps the superficial qualities..

    To be fair, I was just using that quote to ilustrate that he thought of Bond as a potential role model and essentially a good guy, the opposite to Dalton. Brosnan did try to get more of Bond's personality into the films. I think Brosnan's 007 genuinely has a sense of a man who is less than happy with himself. The scene on the beach in GoldenEye, the scene in the hotel in Tomorrow Never Dies, and several others.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Bond never actually hits a woman in any of the books as far as I can remember. He voices his anger about them at times but I don't ever remember him hitting them. That was only in the films.

    A character trait I strongly feel they should bring back. I'm not saying Bond should be slapping women left right and center but I do feel that Bond should slap up a villainous chick where ever possible and should he feel bad about it or not it can be conveyed accordingly. I really want the character to be expanded, explored and for the audience to question his behaviour.......at times but simultaneously still rooting for him. This is James Bond not the adventures of mild mannered Peter Parker.
  • UlyssesGamma_HoseUlyssesGamma_Hose
    Posts: 73
    doubleoego wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Bond never actually hits a woman in any of the books as far as I can remember. He voices his anger about them at times but I don't ever remember him hitting them. That was only in the films.

    A character trait I strongly feel they should bring back. I'm not saying Bond should be slapping women left right and center but I do feel that Bond should slap up a villainous chick where ever possible and should he feel bad about it or not it can be conveyed accordingly. I really want the character to be expanded, explored and for the audience to question his behaviour.......at times but simultaneously still rooting for him. This is James Bond not the adventures of mild mannered Peter Parker.

    I don't think Bond needs to hit women unless they are genuinely deadly, i.e. Xenia, and it's a fight scene.

  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    edited October 2012 Posts: 4,399
    thelivingroyale wrote:
    Brosnan understood the character, just a different version of it.

    I don't think every Bond has to be close to Fleming. I like how every actor has done his own thing with it. Dalton is my favourite, but if every Bond was like him, it'd be boring.

    Brosnan really only understood the film version of the character - and probably took his cues from Roger Moore..

    you listen to both Dalton and Craig explain the character, and they to immediately go back to Fleming - as when preparing for the role, they both went back and read all the Fleming novels... there is a difference in understanding what makes the man tick - rather just simply throwing on a tux, drinking a martini, shagging a chick and smiling and winking at the camera as you strut from one side of the screen to the other...

    Brosnan had his brief moments - but whether it was by design or not, his Bond performance felt the most superficial and hollow than any of the previous actors... he lacked substance and depth.. and when they tried to incorporate more human qualities into his Bond, they (or him) constantly dropped the ball..
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited October 2012 Posts: 11,189
    To be fair, I was just using that quote to ilustrate that he thought of Bond as a potential role model and essentially a good guy, the opposite to Dalton. Brosnan did try to get more of Bond's personality into the films. I think Brosnan's 007 genuinely has a sense of a man who is less than happy with himself. The scene on the beach in GoldenEye, the scene in the hotel in Tomorrow Never Dies, and several others.
    [/quote]

    I think there was a "gentleness" to Brosnan's Bond that was semi reminiscent to Fleming. The little smiles he gives to women for instance. Theres a moment in LALD when Bond and Solataire are on the train and she asks Bond "will you help me?" and Bond says "I'll do my best". That reminded me of the first "Trust me" moment in GE between Bond and Natalya when they were in the cell.

    Another good example is when I heard the end of an audiobook of MR. It said "Bond gave a smile to Gala". For some reason I instantly thought of Brozza smiling at Electra.
  • UlyssesGamma_HoseUlyssesGamma_Hose
    edited October 2012 Posts: 73
    HASEROT wrote:
    thelivingroyale wrote:
    Brosnan had his brief moments - but whether it was by design or not, his Bond performance felt the most superficial and hollow than any of the previous actors...


    I agree with that in regards to TWINE and DAD, but in his first two movies, and GoldenEye especially, there does seem to be some steel beneath the charm.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    HASEROT wrote:
    Brosnan had his brief moments - but whether it was by design or not, his Bond performance felt the most superficial and hollow than any of the previous actors...
    ENNNNNHHHH, wrong answer, Hans! :))
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    Probably the most Fleming-y moment Brosnan had come to think of it was the "threw it away years ago" line in DAD.
  • UlyssesGamma_HoseUlyssesGamma_Hose
    Posts: 73
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Probably the most Fleming-y moment Brosnan had come to think of it was the "threw it away years ago" line in DAD.

    Surely it was drinking shots in the hotel in TND, waiting with his gun on the table.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited October 2012 Posts: 11,189
    UlyssesGamma_Hose wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Probably the most Fleming-y moment Brosnan had come to think of it was the "threw it away years ago" line in DAD.

    Surely it was drinking shots in the hotel in TND, waiting with his gun on the table.

    That too
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    BAIN123 wrote:

    I think there was a "gentleness" to Brosnan's Bond that was semi reminiscent to Fleming. The little smiles he gives to women for instance.
    I think the slapping chicks thing was because of Connery- ?
  • UlyssesGamma_HoseUlyssesGamma_Hose
    edited October 2012 Posts: 73
    I genuinely believe the main problem with Brosnan is that he's not convincing as a hard man. He seems extremely average in that department. Even Roger Moore looked like he would win fights because a) he's a big guy, and b) he had those great roundhouse punches. Brosnan just doesn't convince as an ass-kicker.

    That said, it could be as much to do with fight choreography and direction, as he came off as quite brutal in moments of GoldenEye - but in the other three, he looks unconvincing.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    UlyssesGamma_Hose wrote:
    he came off as quite brutal in moments of GoldenEye -
    Saved your butt there, buddy!
    b-(
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited October 2012 Posts: 11,189
    UlyssesGamma_Hose wrote:
    I genuinely believe the main problem with Brosnan is that he's not convincing as a hard man. He seems extremely average in that department. Even Roger Moore looked like he would win fights because a) he's a big guy, and b) he had those great roundhouse punches. Brosnan just doesn't convince as an ass-kicker.

    That said, it could be as much to do with fight choreography and direction, as he came off as quite brutal in moments of GoldenEye - but in the other three, he looks unconvincing.

    Thing is though Rog was clunky in movement. Brosnan was "quicker". Could you imagine Moore pulling off the fight on the yaucht in GE? Not sure if I can - even in his younger days. He's probably "bigger" than Brosnan but he isn't as "agile".
  • UlyssesGamma_HoseUlyssesGamma_Hose
    edited October 2012 Posts: 73
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Thing is though Rog was clunky in movement. Brosnan was "quicker". Could you imagine Moore pulling off the fight on the yaucht in GE? Not sure if I can - even in his younger days. He's probably "bigger" than Brosnan but he isn't as "agile".

    Fight scenes in the earlier movies were less about agility and more brawls or slugfests - punch one guy, dodge a lamp thrown at your head, slam another guy's head into a mirror. Moore was fighting guys of a similar size to him.

    Brosnan seems more agile, I agree, but also sleight and lacking in strength. I imagine in the legendary hypothetical Bond battle royale, Brosnan would be out first.

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