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The Score of Skyfall

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  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited November 2011 Posts: 15,718
    @SaintMark what differenciates Zimmer, Horner and Williams is that they have their own 'sound'. Not only did Arnold just copy Barry's sound, but he relies a lot on his orchestrator, Dodd, to create/copy that sound. Arnold simply is not responsible for a large part of the end results of his soundtracks. And as you say, in a 10+ years of composing, Arnold has not evolved a lot from his very, very basic and simple music. Only in QOS did some musical knowledge come through, as if Arnold had just understood some basic musical elements... Which is very sad, as he is close to 50 when he just started learning/showing some knowledge. And with a very restrained orchestral range, Arnold rapidly showed that his music is very limited. So another major fault in him : he has an over-reliance on sound mixing. Clever device, but doesn't hide the problem Arnold has : he has a limited knowledge/variety of instruments. Either he doesn't know them, or he simply is too lazy to learn about them.
  • LeChiffreLeChiffre
    Posts: 1,548
    Arnold's music is soulless crap
    That's your opinion! The music industry which has given him several awards disagree!
    Awards mean f all.

    You're right though about Arnold. His music isn't crap, it's just mediocre, with very occasional moments of brilliance.

    I completely agree.Can't believe there is so much negativity about Dave Arnold. Don't these people not remember how Eric " I wish I was Sting" Serra butchered Goldeneye ( the only bad thing about that film IMO). The only thing DA can be accused of is collaborating with Madonna to murder the theme to DAD, and even then I guess he was forced to by the studio. If he can bring a touch of KD Lang class ala Surrender in TND to SF then I'll be chuffed to bits.

  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited November 2011 Posts: 15,718
    The only thing DA can be accused of
    He can be accused of having an over-reliance of his orchestrator, an over-reliance on sound mixing, a very limited orchestral range, a very basic musical complexity which only appeared in QOS, after 10+ years of composing.
  • LeChiffreLeChiffre
    Posts: 1,548
    The only thing DA can be accused of
    He can be accused of having an over-reliance of his orchestrator, an over-reliance on sound mixing, a very limited orchestral range, a very basic musical complexity which
    only appeared in QOS, after 10+ years of composing.

    Cant think of anyone better to be honest. As long as they dont go the Goldeneye route and try and re-invent the wheel I don't think it can go too far wrong. 99.9 % of the cinema going public couildnt really care less as long as the Bond theme is used

  • SharkShark Banned
    Posts: 348
    Cant think of anyone better to be honest.
    Christopher Young, Elliot Goldenthal, Don Davis, Alberto Iglesias, or Mark Sham?
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited November 2011 Posts: 15,718
    If we put in a room 20 people that are simple movie-goers and aren't Bond fans, play them any random track of TND/TWINE/DAD/CR/QOS, it's pretty certain none of them will be able to tell WHICH film this track comes from, or even if it comes from a Bond film af all. . But play them a track from Barry or Serra, and all of them with tell you that the cue comes from a Bond film. Better yet, with Serra, they will most likely tell you it comes from GE.
  • ZekidkZekidk
    Posts: 3,276
    You are a liar!
    @Zekidk Please refrain from accusing other members of being a liar. Even if by any chance you can prove said member wrong, there's no reason to bring up such immature expressions.

    I was out of line, sorry.

    I am sure that DaltonCraig007 - as the grown-up he probably is - somehow can provide proof of Barry critizising Arnold. He hasn't yet!

    You are living in denial and refuse to face reality.
    DaltonCraig007.Please refrain from using such terms about another member. There's no reason to bring up such immature expressions.

    Have a nice day.

  • ZekidkZekidk
    edited November 2011 Posts: 3,276
    There are a LOT of people who "refuse to face reality" then, I guess.

    "Finally: A Successor to John Barry

    In due course, EON employed the services of the young British film composer David Arnold and, from this point in time through the present, the Arnold/Bond romance continues to prosper. Arnold had gained his reputation from his already impressive résumé which included two Oscars, one being for the award-winning, 1996 film Independence Day. He had also worked successfully on the television drama Stargate SG-1.

    From the very first electric gun-barrel cue in Tomorrow Never Dies, to the very sexy “Going Down Together” track in Die Another Day, Bond music-lovers could tell this young composer had something special to offer the series’, already celebrated music style. That first gun-barrel cue closely rivals the Barry gun-barrels of The Man With The Golden Gun, Moonraker, Octopussy, A View To A Kill and finally, The Living Daylights.

    Arnold’s ability to vary the style of his work from one action film, to the next action film is a credit to his talent and marks clear comparisons with that of his idol John Barry, whose equal capability to vary his style was first rate.

    Like Barry, Arnold continues to win awards for his musical scores and although he hasn’t quite reached the twelfth-Oscar status his idol has reached, he is well on the way. John Barry created the Bond sound that “signature sound,” as Arnold calls it, but the current Bond composer says as long as he is doing the job, the Bond sound will stay Barrysque and we say Arnold is the best man for the job."

    http://www.universalexports.net/editorials/davidarnold.shtml

  • SharkShark Banned
    edited November 2011 Posts: 348
    A positive appraisal of David Arnold's career. That the best you got?

    Can't you fight your own battles?
  • ZekidkZekidk
    edited November 2011 Posts: 3,276
    Shark. Feel free to provide links to negative reviews.

  • SharkShark Banned
    Posts: 348
    I don't need consensus for an argument.
  • ZekidkZekidk
    Posts: 3,276
    Shark.

    If you "don't need consensus" why on earth are you asking if "that's the best" I got?

    I think I have provided enough of my own arguments here for the reason why I love David Arnold. You may disagree because of a different taste in music. I respect that!

    "Tomorrow Never Dies
    A must for any Bond fan. Responding to audience backlash against Serra's highly synthesized score to GoldenEye, the Bond producers recruited David Arnold (Stargate, Last Of The Dogmen, Independence Day) for "Bond 18". What has resulted is easily one of the best Bond scores ever to be recorded."
    http://www.klast.net/bond/soundtr.html

    "Casino Royale. Soundtrack review:
    Arnold's music is prominently featured in the film, contributing to much of the romanticism associated with the film's various locations. There is no doubt that he has redeemed himself in his ability to provide fresh ideas for the franchise, which is especially important for him given the fact that his Bond scores represent by far his most substantive output these days. His only obstacle will be fans who expect fewer conversational and darkly dramatic underscore cues, but these more impatient listeners are bound to happen."

    Indeed!

    http://www.filmtracks.com/titles/casino_royale.html
  • LudsLuds MIA
    Posts: 1,986
    Shark. Feel free to provide links to negative reviews.

    Zekidk, you'll find that the outspoken majority of fans on this Bond board, and various others for that matter, even some which really have nothing to do with Bond other than their name, tend to have negative views on David Arnold. Frankly so do I ;) But you're welcome to enjoy his music and have your own view. It'll be an uphill battle I'm afraid though ;)

  • ZekidkZekidk
    edited November 2011 Posts: 3,276
    Oh, but I don't mind defending Arnold here, although an "uphill battle". John Barry approved of him, so do I, and I am looking forward to his work on 'SKYFALL'.
  • ZekidkZekidk
    edited November 2011 Posts: 3,276

    Zekidk, you'll find that the outspoken majority of fans on this Bond board, and various others for that matter, even some which really have nothing to do with Bond other than their name, tend to have negative views on David Arnold.
    Well, why not just look at the facts then. Judging from this thread:

    there are 285 comments so far:

    - A total of 43 user have commented

    - A total of 10 users are NEGATIVE towards Arnold (DaltonCraig007, Luds, Thegiantcookie, forgotmyusername, shark, MajorDSmythe, thelordflasheart GeorgeLazenby, SaintMark, boldfinger)

    - A total of 22 users are POSITIVE towards Arnold (Mr_Sterling, BAIN123, saunders H007MER, AgentJamesBond007, WillardWhyte, sheriouslysean, haserot, quantumofsolace, LiveAndEatPie, SharkBait, imranbecks, SJK91, Monsieur_Aubergine , nethegauner, Benny, shadowonthesun, JWESTBROOK, Zekidk, SirHenryLeeChaChing, echo, LeChiffre)

    - A total of 11 users are neither negative or positive (from what I can read, I might have misread a couple) - (PanchitoPistoles, Samuel001, St_George Gaz, 1961jaguar007, connerybond, DarthDimi, xolani, SirHenryLeeChaChing, lechero, HMBFF)

    Might have missed one or two!

    So, judging from this thread, and looking at the facts, the supporters of Arnold are the majority here! Guess that would make that "uphill battle" a lot easier!
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    There are more than just 43 users on the forum...
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    Those that have problems or issues are usually the ones who beat their drums the loudest... as I said, its not worth getting inroads holy war over... if EON were not happy with Arnold, he would've been axed long ago - and in the end, they could care less about what we as 1% of the general public has to say... the majority of people who go to see these movies probably couldn't distinguish the difference between Barry, Martin or Conti anyways......


    Just let it go guy ... don't get yourself demonized over this issue
  • ZekidkZekidk
    edited November 2011 Posts: 3,276
    I wrote "judging from this thread", DaltonCraig007

    And I'm still waiting for some sort of documentation or link, to support your claim, that John Barry has "bashed" David Arnold.

    Are you up for the challenge?

    Haserot: I don't mind being "demonized" because I express my personal opinions - here about my passion for David Arnold. If some people have a problem with my views - then it's their problem, not mine!
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    What do you have to say about this
    Arnold is not responsible for a large portion of the work on his soundtracks. He is one of the composers that relies the most on his orchestrator. He has a very limited orchestra range, and instead of learning about new instruments, he also have an over-reliance on sound mixing, another proof of his laziness and/or lack of talent. He has close to no musical complexity. The only soundtrack of his entire career where he started to show basic musical knowledge was QOS... And he was near 50 when he scored that. So either Arnold is very slow learning, or he is very, very lazy.
  • ZekidkZekidk
    Posts: 3,276
    Are you quoting John Barry there, DaltonCraig007?

    If that's the case, I apologize. If not: keep digging!
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    So you don't dispute Arnold is a very lazy composer and/or seriously lacking in musical knowledge and ability ? So you don't dispute the facts about him ?

    Next.
  • ZekidkZekidk
    edited November 2011 Posts: 3,276
    I see that you have a hard time finding a direct quote to support your claim, DaltonCraig007. Need help?

    And I DO dispute what you are writing. Of course I don't find him either "lazy" or "lacking in musical knowledge." Arnold WAS the composer responsible for creating many of those great melodies from the past 5 Bond-movies. Are you disputing that he wasn't the guy in charge for creating those?

    And DaltonCraig007. Your personal opinions (about him being "lazy" fx) are not necesarily "facts", like it certainly isn't a "fact" that OHMSS is the best Bond-movie, or Goldeneye is the "best" titlesong, just because I say so!
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited November 2011 Posts: 15,718
    Writing melodies isn't all there is to composing. You need to orchestrate then, which is a large part of the work needed on a soundtrack. And the fact is Arnold didn't orchestrate them. No, in fact, he is one of the composers that relies the most on his orchestrator. And what does that mean ? It means Arnold is NOT responsible for a large part of his soundtracks. Anyone can write melodies. What differenciates amateur composers from the great/good ones are the ability to orchestrate these melodies. To transform these simple notes into beautiful sweeping music.

    Are you disputing the fact Arnold has a very limited orchestral range ? Are you disputing the fact that Arnold has always used the same limited number of instruments ? Are you disputing the fact he relies more on sound mixing than learning about new instruments to diversify his sound ? Are you disputing the fact that most of his soundtracks are very basic, simply, not complex at all ? Are you disputing the fact that only in QOS did some basic musical elements appeared in his soundtracks ? And he seemed to have learned them after 10 years of composing at the age of nearly 50 ?
  • SaintMarkSaintMark
    Posts: 7,653

    Like Barry, Arnold continues to win awards for his musical scores and although he hasn’t quite reached the twelfth-Oscar status his idol has reached, he is well on the way.

    I looked it up but John Barry has 5 Oscars to his name and Arnold zero, so I am not sure how the writer of this particular article counts (but of course Imdb.com can be wrong)
    ;-) So to state that he is well on his way is rather bold statement but factually incorrect.

    However Arnold has got a load of other prizes with his 007 work (based upon the work of another composer) where John Barry got frequently snubbed for his great work on the series. (somebody else reaps the awards I guess) Arnold hasn't got a lot of awards from original work by himself (being Independance day & Stargate).

  • VirageVirage
    Posts: 1,856
    NOW!!!!
    Stop It, Its Personal Taste. TND made less money because it was up against Titanic. That is proven fact it wasn't anything to do with the composer. So STOP IT!!!
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    NOW!!!!
    Stop It, Its Personal Taste. TND made less money because it was up against Titanic. That is proven fact it wasn't anything to do with the composer. So STOP IT!!!
    Where has anyone said Arnold was responsible for that ?

  • ZekidkZekidk
    edited November 2011 Posts: 3,276
    Saint Mark. Your quote mentions that Arnold has received "awards", not necesarily "Oscar awards." It's a fact that Arnold has won 10 BMI awards fx.

    DaltonCraig007: For me - writing the melodies is the most essential thing. You need talent if you want to create memorable melodies, whereas almost anyone can learn to orchestrate given enough time and practise. I thought you knew that, since you are a musician, right?

    It's like being in a band. How far can you get if all are technically brilliant on their instruments, but no one knows how to write any catchy songs? Just look at The Beatles - they weren't really that great technically. But they were fantastic songwriters.

    Now... have you dug up anything on Barry criticizing Arnold?
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited November 2011 Posts: 15,718
    For me - writing the melodies is the most essential thing. You need talent if you want to create memorable melodies, whereas almost anyone can learn to orchestrate given enough time and practise. I thought you knew that, since you are a musician, right?
    Please, continue to rewrite the history books.

    Orchestrating is the hardest part... Everyone knows that. If writing the melodies was much easier, why are there considerably less people who orchestrates, writes&orchestrates than just writing ? Shouldn't there be more people who do the easiest part, and only the handful best who write the music ?

    And you still haven't explained why Arnold's writing is very basic and simple, seriously lacking the complexity of Barry.
  • quantumofsolacequantumofsolace England
    Posts: 279
    I'm more than happy for David Arnold to score SF. I think his work on CR and QOS was excellent, light years ahead of his woeful scores for the Brosnan stinkers. Does he possess one billionth of John Barry's devastating talent? Of course not. But neither does any other contemporary composer. The current state of film music is absolutely appalling - due in no small part to the evil influence of Zimmer - and inevitably it's bound to get worse. This is going to sound like a decidedly back-handed compliment but David Arnold is the best of a bad bunch. I certainly can't think of another modern composer who could do as good a job, let alone a better one. And comparing him to the master is pointless. Sadly John is no longer with us and we will NEVER hear a Bond score of that extraordinary calibre ever again. We just have to accept that and lower our expectations accordingly.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited November 2011 Posts: 15,718
    How about Christopher Lennertz, one of the few who composes, orchestrates and conducts his own work ?

    And again, @quantumofsolace : Arnold is one of the few who relies the most on his orchestrator, thus a big part of his work or sound isn't from him. Arnold just writes the music, the big work of orchestrating is from Dodd. And besides, Arnold also has one of the most limited orchestral range in the film music business...

    So yes the state of film music is in a very bad state, but can we atleast pick someone with a bit more range/diversity ?
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