Too much CGI in Skyfall ? Or just Obvious CGI that wasn't needed ?

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  • edited January 2015 Posts: 11,425
    The bit where bond hangs from the elevator was pretty bad CGI. Would have been amazing if they could have done it for real. They could have used safety wires still.

  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    I'm sorry but none of the effects used in the Craig era have taken me out of the film with the possible exception of that godawful aerial sequence from QOS but that sequence was problematic full stop.

    We've certainly not got anything quite as bad as para surfing tsunami's in this era. Possibly the fact they rarely use it compared to other films makes it more glaring to some maybe they should use it more and it wouldn't be so obvious to some of you but then we'd have whole new issue to moan about then but then some of you will never be pleased hence threads like this.
  • RC7RC7
    edited January 2015 Posts: 10,512
    Shardlake wrote: »
    I'm sorry but none of the effects used in the Craig era have taken me out of the film with the possible exception of that godawful aerial sequence from QOS but that sequence was problematic full stop.

    We've certainly not got anything quite as bad as para surfing tsunami's in this era. Possibly the fact they rarely use it compared to other films makes it more glaring to some maybe they should use it more and it wouldn't be so obvious to some of you but then we'd have whole new issue to moan about then but then some of you will never be pleased hence threads like this.

    I assume you're being sarcastic when you suggest they use more of it? They should be attempting to achieve as much in camera as possible. For those of you lucky enough to not notice it, that's fine, but some of us do notice it and it can jar what is an otherwise solid scene. There have been a few notable moments from the last two pictures in particular.

    For me personally I'd plump for the Siena fall between Mitchell and Bond plus the aerial sequence. In SF, the notable bike shots from the PTS, the shots atop the train when they pass through the tunnel, the Komodo dragons and the establishing shot on Hashima island. There are plenty more.

    In all fairness the worst is the QoS aerial scene, but it is the only one on that list which would be incredibly difficult to achieve without substantial visual effects. That said, it certainly doesn't stand up against the intro to TDKR, which contains similar elements.

  • Posts: 11,425
    The airborne sequences in the Rog and Dalton movies are so much better.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Getafix wrote: »
    The airborne sequences in the Rog and Dalton movies are so much better.

    Absolutely. TDKR basically ripped the pretitles of LTK for their pretitles so it can still be done without CGI (in the sense that it's not completely cost prohibitive). John Glen directed some great aerial sequences. If they do that today and just fill in the face with the actor via CGI I'll be pleased.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Getafix wrote: »
    The airborne sequences in the Rog and Dalton movies are so much better.

    Yes, miles better. The problem lies in trying to do too much. Sometimes simple is more effective, dramatically also.
  • edited January 2015 Posts: 11,425
    Exactly. That was my point above - CGI tempts directors into overly elaborate action scenes that actually lack the simplicity and beauty of classic old school stunt sequences.

    So for example you end up with the superfluous sequence with the plane disintegrating in QoS rather than a genuinely cool chase and escape stunt.
  • Getafix wrote: »
    The airborne sequences in the Rog and Dalton movies are so much better.

    Absolutely.

  • Posts: 5,767
    So, if I read the above posts, CGI shouldn´t be an everlasting pest. One main reason for using more and more CGI in action scenes was a growing demand for seeing that it´s actually the actor in the scene. People complained that seeing a stunt man takes them out of the experience. Since people are also taken out of the experience by CGI effects, they won´t use them in that way forever. Filmmakers will go back to real stunt work, among other things. They will be much more careful to hide any tricks. After all it´s movie magic. Recognizing a stunt man or a CGI effect takes the magic away.
  • edited January 2015 Posts: 11,425
    The thing is you can't have it both ways. No matter how good CGI gets, you'll always be cgi'ing the actor's face onto the stuntman. And by doing that you detract from the 'reality' of the genuine stunt work, because you know the actor won't have done the stunt. It's a real shame, as the bike chase in SF was obviously good quality stunt work (although I have to say, not really very innovative) but somehow lacked excitement. I'm not sure if that was the CGI or just the fact that it wasn't particualrly well choreographed.

    Or may be it was the music...?

    In the Marvel films it doesn't matter, as you're essentially wathcing a glorified cartoon. But for Bond, that cartoonish unreal quality that CGI brings is a real no no.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    I wonder what people will think of the CGI in the big blockbusters of the past 10 years or so in a decade's time.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Not just stunts, but sets. No longer will a mock city be built to size and then burned to the ground (GONE WITH THE WIND), no more volcano lairs.

    Absolutely, I mean this is a real tragedy and no amount of crowing from studio execs about budgets can take away from the fact it was, and should remain, an art. Imagine the MR Control Room in the Amazon being built today? No chance and it's such a shame. If there's one thing I'd like EON to do it would be to once again build a set that completely fills the 007 stage. Screw the budget, they could spin it into a positive bit of marketing. A finger up at the CGI-laden blockbusters. The sets of old were so damn good I bet a lot of viewers didn't, and still don't realise they were straight sets. I remember when I was a kid having an argument with a guy at school who insisted the AVTAK finale was filmed in a real mine. Kids today won't have those conversations because they can see that most of it has been produced in a computer.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    This is precisely why those old Bond movies will forever remain classics......because we likely will not see that level of real precision quality (e.g. MR control room) sets again, sadly.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited January 2015 Posts: 15,718
    Totally agreed, @RC7. It isn't a coincidence that the most iconic images of the franchise are the ski jump, the car roll-jump, the volcano lair, etc. The stuff that was made for real and by the sweat of the crew.

    No matter how much we say that dieing in the name of movie making or sports or whatever is now unacceptable, the fact remains the most iconic, famous and popular stuff will have been made when it was dangerous and people risked their lives.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    Getafix wrote: »
    The airborne sequences in the Rog and Dalton movies are so much better.

    The aerial sequence from TLD is probably the best of the series, although the bar was set high with the opening of TDKR, I don't rate that film but Nolan can't be faulted for it's staging, if Bond was to go down this route that would be one area of inspiration I wouldn't object Bond taking from Nolan.

    I would say SF will be one of the films as far as the use of CG is concerned that time will be allot kinder too, the likes of The Avengers & Man of Steel might not be so lucky.
    Just look how awful the Star Wars prequels look now.

    Anyone would think SF is soaked in it, it's used sparingly and EON still pride themselves on producing as much real sets and stuntmen to stage sequences. I don't think people probably realise the cost of staging some things real is, if they use I'm sure they considered it before utilising it.

    Look the majority of us are just fans and although some of us fancy ourselves as the next Terence Young the reality is that we aren't and most of us are legends in our own bedroom or lunch break.

    The likes of Colonel Sun know what they are talking about and have proved that many time but some of you are just bitching with no context what so ever at all.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,800
    Shardlake wrote: »
    some of you are just bitching with no context what so ever at all.
    It's what we do.
    :))
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    Go ahead and compare it to the likes of Moonraker or TLD, I guarantee Skyfall will not be know as that boring film where Bond shoots his boss and outside of fandom history will be allot kinder to it than those mentioned.

    We are a small minority no one cares about our little gripes, those who say that about Skyfall are having wishful thinking because they don't like the film.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,800
    Shardlake wrote: »
    I guarantee Skyfall will not be know as that boring film where Bond shoots his boss and outside of fandom history will be allot kinder to it than those mentioned.
    Okay, um.. could you word this a little differently so I can understand your point here?
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited January 2015 Posts: 15,718
    No one can predict the evolution of the general audience. Who know, maybe in 30 years time all the serious spy films like Bourne, Taken, 24 will be looked as tedious and the general audience will prefer more joyful films like the Brosnan's, Moore's, or stuff like The Rock and Con Air, so the Bond franchise will go towards that style too.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2015 Posts: 23,883
    I have to say I do respect Nolan for using real stuff as much as he can. TDK (the chase with the bike, tankers and cop cars) and the TDKR beginning really stood out for me compared to Marvel's CGI-fest.

    SF's action scenes were ok, but did not have the same impact as both those scenes in the Bat movies.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,216
    The only Cg that bothers me in Skyfall is the face replacement during the scene. I actually love the Komodo dragon scene; it harkens back to Bond's Pulp literature roots.
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    I forgot about the CGI elevator scene. That was pretty awful, too.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited January 2015 Posts: 9,117
    RC7 wrote: »
    In all fairness the worst is the QoS aerial scene, but it is the only one on that list which would be incredibly difficult to achieve without substantial visual effects.

    That point might have some validity if practically the same sequence hadn't already been done for real in 1979.

    When making QOS it seems they've just gone 'we can do this with CGI' without first giving BJ Worth a call and for the Bond series that's a disgrace.
    Shardlake wrote: »
    If you really want stuntmen risking themselves for the sake of a film where it can be done with effects, I do have to ask where your priorities lie? Have we become that much a selfish species that now we demand people take risks for the sake of a bloody film?

    I've heard it all now - ethical film making to prevent cruelty to stuntmen. 'I'd rather watch CGI than wear fur?'

    Given the Bond film industry has been going 50 years and is a multi billion dollar business that has pushed the envelope in stunt work I think their safety record is pretty good. Only three serious incidents of note and only one of those fatal.

    And to answer your question: yes I want to see a stuntman up there 'risking his life' even though he is surrounded by safety measures which are double and triple checked so the actual risk is fairly minimal. These people are not forced to do this; they choose to do it. If being a stuntman was so dangerous and badly paid then no one would do it. They are showmen who enjoy the thrill their job brings and if you asked any of them if they would prefer to work in a nice, safe, stifling office every single one would answer a resounding no.

    If you don't mind me saying, it's a little pompous to insinuate that people advocating stunt work done for real over CGI should be ashamed of themselves as a human. I suggest you look into the conditions into which the trainers or jeans you are wearing or the computer you are happily typing this on was made before you start equating stuntmen with some sort of forced labour for the entertainment of us decadent westerners.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2015 Posts: 23,883
    I agree @TheWizardOffice.

    If Tom Cruise (I wonder what he's insured for) can hang out of a hotel in Dubai (and a moving plane reportedly in Mi5), surely an anonymous stuntman can be asked to do the same for James Bond, that has set the benchmark for so many years.

    For those who think CGI is worth it, please view the QoS aerial sequence and then immediately put on a copy of TDKR and watch the opening sequence (filmed in IMAX no less) in that film. To me, it's night and day. I'm thrilled and excited by TDKR because I know that's really being done. I can tell that the QoS sequence is CGI and am momentarily taken out of the experience. For any other franchise that's ok I suppose. Not for James Bond that is the standard bearer (or at least should be) in these matters.
  • RC7RC7
    edited January 2015 Posts: 10,512
    RC7 wrote: »
    In all fairness the worst is the QoS aerial scene, but it is the only one on that list which would be incredibly difficult to achieve without substantial visual effects.

    That point might have some validity if practically the same sequence hadn't already been done for real in 1979.

    I was referring to the disintegration of the plane Wiz. The skydiving is obviously unforgivable. I mentioned, perhaps in another thread, about the TDKR intro as a comparison to this scene. That was executed excellently imo.
    bondjames wrote: »
    I can tell that the QoS sequence is CGI and am momentarily taken out of the experience. For any other franchise that's ok I suppose. Not for James Bond that is the standard bearer (or at least should be) in these matters.

    Agreed. Why anyone would argue otherwise seems ludicrous to me. I think people need to understand that when many of us complain about CG shots and elements we are not slating entire films, merely expressing a wish to reverse the trend in the future.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,800
    Nothing in a movie is worth a person's health or life, and if you have a soul, you would support as much CGI as possible in the movies.
    (Paid for by the Computer Generation Lobby)
  • edited January 2015 Posts: 5,767
    bondjames wrote: »
    I agree @TheWizardOffice.

    If Tom Cruise (I wonder what he's insured for) can hang out of a hotel in Dubai (and a moving plane reportedly in Mi5), surely an anonymous stuntman can be asked to do the same for James Bond, that has set the benchmark for so many years.

    For those who think CGI is worth it, please view the QoS aerial sequence and then immediately put on a copy of TDKR and watch the opening sequence (filmed in IMAX no less) in that film. To me, it's night and day. I'm thrilled and excited by TDKR because I know that's really being done. I can tell that the QoS sequence is CGI and am momentarily taken out of the experience. For any other franchise that's ok I suppose. Not for James Bond that is the standard bearer (or at least should be) in these matters.
    I doubt any insurance company is covering Cruise. Jackie Chan complained that he had trouble with insurance companies in Hollywood when he planned some relatively minor stunts for Rush Hour.

    As for the QoS aerial scene, I just don´t get those complaints. I never was taken out of the experience for a moment, because that scene is so obviously CGI that it is obvious that the director went for that visual style deliberately. And I could watch those two film scenes one after the other and still like the QoS one better, because regardless of the degree of realistic look I prefer the bright colours of QoS over TDKR´s bleak looks any time, and I think QoS is visually very beautiful, said scene being no exception. Perhaps I´m the only one, but I can assure you in the mentioned case I´m fully voting for QoS. Yes, the DC3 ascending does look anything but real, and yes, I can see that the opening scene of TDKR was done for real, but the shot of the ascending DC3 is bloody beautiful.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2015 Posts: 23,883
    boldfinger wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I agree @TheWizardOffice.

    If Tom Cruise (I wonder what he's insured for) can hang out of a hotel in Dubai (and a moving plane reportedly in Mi5), surely an anonymous stuntman can be asked to do the same for James Bond, that has set the benchmark for so many years.

    For those who think CGI is worth it, please view the QoS aerial sequence and then immediately put on a copy of TDKR and watch the opening sequence (filmed in IMAX no less) in that film. To me, it's night and day. I'm thrilled and excited by TDKR because I know that's really being done. I can tell that the QoS sequence is CGI and am momentarily taken out of the experience. For any other franchise that's ok I suppose. Not for James Bond that is the standard bearer (or at least should be) in these matters.
    I doubt any insurance company is covering Cruise. Jackie Chan complained that he had trouble with insurance companies in Hollywood when he planned some relatively minor stunts for Rush Hour.

    As for the QoS aerial scene, I just don´t get those complaints. I never was taken out of the experience for a moment, because that scene is so obviously CGI that it is obvious that the director went for that visual style deliberately. And I could watch those two film scenes one after the other and still like the QoS one better, because regardless of the degree of realistic look I prefer the bright colours of QoS over TDKR´s bleak looks any time, and I think QoS is visually very beautiful, said scene being no exception. Perhaps I´m the only one, but I can assure you in the mentioned case I´m fully voting for QoS. Yes, the DC3 ascending does look anything but real, and yes, I can see that the opening scene of TDKR was done for real, but the shot of the ascending DC3 is bloody beautiful.

    I guess this is where we differ. I can't truly be in the moment in a scene that is obviously CGI.

    Up to that point it looked to me like they were doing it for real. So I was really enjoying it (although it still had the choppy editing that the film is notorious for). When the climb came along all I thought of was DAD (the similar CGI plane crapfest at the end, which in itself was embarrasing compared to amazing stuntwork in a similar scene at the end of TLD) and was completely taken out of it. Then the fall was even worse (particularly for a franchise that did what it did in 1979 for MR - a scene that has been copied endlessly and done worse in other movies - including Eraser).

    I agree completely that the colours look so much better and are more vivid in QoS compared to TDKR.

    I just can't be in the moment in an obvious CGI scene.

    At the end of that scene in TDKR my mouth was open in awe because I hadn't seen anything that good since CR's crane scene.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited January 2015 Posts: 17,800
    bondjames wrote: »
    I just can't be in the moment in an obvious CGI scene.
    Stuntwise, the crane scene was impressive, but I had no use for it in a film that was attempting a new level of realism. I would have been way happier to have Bond chase him up there, & turn around & meet him down below, saving his energy & demonstrating brains over brawn.
    The CGI in QOS was less problematic for me.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2015 Posts: 23,883
    chrisisall wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I just can't be in the moment in an obvious CGI scene.
    Stuntwise, the crane scene was impressive, but I had no use for it in a film that was attempting a new level of realism. I would have been way happier to have Bond chase him up there, & turn around & meet him down below, saving his energy & demonstrating brains over brawn.
    The CGI in QOS was less problematic for me.

    That's very true, given what they were trying to achieve. However, I just remember being so happy because it seemed like they had learned their lesson and were returning to form without CGI - given that the immediately preceding film had the surfing scene.

    For me, it just brought back memories of the TSWLM jump, the MR jump & the GE opening jump. Stuntwork at its best courtesy of the franchise that brought us some of the best work in movies.

    That's why some of the stuff in QoS (including the fall in the Siena tower), while really fast paced, seemed a bit of a let down comparatively to me. If they can do CGI in a way that's not obvious, then I'm all for it, but I'm quite discerning in this regard.

    I feel sorry for Cruise actually. Since there's so much CGI junk out there these days, I was actually doubting that he did that scene in the Dubai hotel in Mi4. I had to look it up because I thought to myself -- no way did he do that! Every time I rewatch the movie now I'm more impressed with that scene, knowing he was really up there.
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