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Excellent post :D
I listened to the obit section again recently and it was pretty ridiculous.
Let's also not forget in SF that Bonds aim before killing Patrice was to see if he had the list. As unfortunate as it is watching Patrice kill those two men was all he could do otherwise Patrice could simply take a cyanide pill for all that Bond knew. his job was for the "greater good". It wasn't like in LTK when he is the soul cause for Krests death.
9. Taking the shrapnel out of his arm himself, when without a doubt there would be a medic on hand SOMEWHERE at MI6 headquarters. Very Fleming.
8. Bond, frustrated with Eve, taking control of the jeep and veering it into Patrice's car, ending the car chase.
7. Bond not questioning M, when both knew that he failed his evaluation and yet she claimed he passed.
6. Bond plunging into the frozen lake bringing the baddie with him just to avoid Silva's shot, while risking arguably a higher chance of death in that climate.
5. Silva's frustration with Bond about 'all this running around' and how exhausting it is.
4. Bond toasting the villains, knowing they would be trying to kill him imminently.
3. Bond taking M himself, and not trusting anyone after the inquiry shooting.
2. Bond not blaming Eve for the bridge incident, realizing the situation and not wasting time on trying to guilt her for following an arguably poor order.
1. Bond faking his aim on Siva's island, yet still letting Severine die in order to capture Silva and complete his mission.
Honorable mentions:
Shaving with a straight razor.
Getting Eve to shave him.
Killing Silva with a big ass blade instead of just shooting him.
Killing Silva with no patience, wasting no time, and saying nothing. Just gutting him in the back.
Nice game!
1) Silva has been betrayed by M years ago, then comes back for revenge against M.
2) Bond uses a female to find out who is the main villain.
3) M, feeling responsible for what is happening, wants no more people hurt, so flees London with Bond to a remote location.
4) Bond orders Q to leave a trail for Silva to pick up to lure him to the remote location, so he can battle with him on his own terms.
No doubt you'll pick holes in all of these moments, but who the hell cares. You seem more upset that fans like SF, rather than the other way round, even though the SF haters here would like everyone to think so.
1.You can't be serious! This is almost a copy of my "Driver Seat " example. Next time you mention that people breath in SF just to prove how it excells on the logic front.
2. Funny you mention it. Nobody ever talks about it,but Bond actually has no Way of knowing that Severigne brings him to whoever has the hard drive. Since Patrice is a freelancer he could as well have worked for some sadistic chinese gangsterboss, who skins 007 alive and fries him in Oil as soon he sets his foot on land. And all for some obscure art scheme he actually has got no interest in!
3. Making her in fact more vulnerable than before and -surprise,surprise - getting her killed.
4. Reread Point 3 (by the way - what are "digital breadcrumbs?)
5. Admittedly it bothers me, just because it sends the message to the producers,that they can get away with ANYTHING short of revealing Bond is Kal Els bigger Brother.
Here's my take on this:
1) I don't understand why you ask if JSW is serious. I thought that Silva had better motivation than most Bond villains. When he explains feeling abandoned by M and MI6 the audience actually understands the *logic* (twisted though it is) of why he wants revenge. Much more intelligent and interesting than someone who, say, wants a lot of money...just 'cause. I think the audiences today are more sophisticated so that a cartoon is evil just because the script says so seems lazy and boring to them. The OTHER part of this is that Silva's character helps to illustrate Bond's character as well - rather than seething and seeking revenge as Silva does, he jettisons his bitterness and comes back to help MI6. So in addition to giving the audience an interesting, logical reason for Silva wanting revenge there's the adding bonus of how it illuminates the other characters. I love it when writers talk up to me instead of down to me - it makes for a much more interesting and engaging film.
2) Bond didn't know that Severine was going to bring him to the same person who hired Patrice to steal the hard drive but what choice did he have? Walk away and say "Oh, well, Patrice is dead. I guess I'll just quit now and go home" (which would hardly make him an exemplar of British fortitude). Severine was the only link left to Patrice and it does make sense that there is a chance that the same person hired Patrice for both jobs. And if not, it still puts Bond among more people who may share connection with Patrice.
3) M agreed to this. As long as she was around other people they were at risk of getting killed by her. So it makes sense that she agrees to be removed from everyone except for Bond. She judged that her life was not as important as "the mission" - which was a) stopping any more people from getting killed and b) stopping or killing Silva. Again, there's some great writing here that M can make up for what happened to Bond and Ronson by showing that she is willing to do what she expects her agents to do. That's the sign of a good leader, and again some intelligent mirroring of characters and situations in the script (for those who like to have more depth to their Bond films).
4) I'm surprised that you don't know what "digital breadcrumbs" are but I guess I made the mistake that we all have the same cultural background. In many countries the fairy tales written by The Brothers Grimm are very popular and "Hansel and Gretel" features children leaving a trail of breadcrumbs in the forest so they can find their way home:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hansel_and_Gretel
I don't know what it's like in non-English speaking countries, but in English speaking countries "breadcrumbs" is a saying that we have for small clues that allow you to follow a trail. As Q was planting information that Silva would see via computer, the breadcrumbs were "digital".
5) I'm sorry that people liking SF so much bothers you. When I was a kid I was enraged that people liked Moore as Bond and his films. His characterization of Bond is still my least favourite, but now I have an appreciation that for the *type* of Bond film they were going for they succeeded. In the same way that they didn't film the Moore movies overtop of the negatives of the Connery ones, the existence of SF doesn't erase your favourite Bond films. I'm sure that the pendulum will swing back to the type of Bond films that you like, but don't deny those of us who like the current style from enjoying it. Just because you don't like SF doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense. It's okay to not like something just because you don't like it.
It's all well and good explaining that it's a trail left digitally but of what? Even if it's things like Bond using his credit card at Mcdonalds on the way, how would Silva know? He wouldn't be able to check the computers of every single restaurant/pub/service station/cafe/fast food place between London and a remote Scottish mansion in the middle of bumfuck nowhere would he? Is it something to do with phones?
This is one of the instances where I think SF's story falls apart a bit if you stop and think about things. Like I've said many times, it's still a great movie imo, but a very character focused one, and it gets so wrapped up with the characters I think the plot suffers a bit.
The script has some brilliant dialouge and scenes, some good action and bits that wouldn't be out of place in a Fleming book, but the story once we get back to London is pretty poor imo.
1. I'm not arguing about Silva coming back for revenge (hell, i think he has any reason for it). It is just not something of Logic or not, it is just about the oldest Plot right After Kain and Abel.
2. ANOTHER compelling reason why Bond is acting Dumb as hell, when he just watches Patrice Finishing his Job. It might be argued,that the Potential victim would know one or two Things about the Motivation of Silvas employer. Ever heard of " my enemies Enemy is my Friend" ?
3. It's not about her aproving it or not. She is the Head of the Secret Service, dammit! The informations inside her Head are of utmost importance, she has no right to Take the Risk of compromising them.
4. I know about Hansel and Gretel, i just Wonder what the digital breadcrumbs constitute of.
5. My offer still Stands and still NO ONE has shown me something making Sense.
Totally agree. I don't dislike SF because of the 'style' of the DC era. I thought CR and QoS were good and thought things were generally heading in the right direction.What I dislike about SF is the sloppy plot (amongst other things) - particularly after they leave Silva's island.
I like SF, you don't. Let's leave it at that. I'm sure there are many films you like which I cannot stand, but that's the way it goes.
I won't lose any sleep over it, even if you do.
So you want people to explain things make make logical sense, and then when I do suddenly it doesn't matter that it's logical because it's an "old plot". Seriously? So you dislike every film that has an element of revenge in it because that's an old plot?
You said you wanted people to point out logical things, and when we do you suddenly change the rules. Doing that makes you look like you're someone who *wants* to dislike SF. Especially when you then complain that no one has shown you anything in SF that makes sense!
This reminds me of the people who misheard a line or wrote about something that wasn't in SF and then kept on repeating those things after several people pointed out that they were wrong. Look, if you're bound and determined to dislike SF no matter what, that's fine. There are no right or wrong opinions.
I said that Revenge is not about Logic, it is a Passion and it has nothing whatsoever to do with how convincing the Story is.
"There are no right or wrong opinions." Political correct or not, there are!!!
Your wasting your time with him, mate..... 8-|
The wisdom and matureness of your answer makes Buddha pale in comparison (maybe it's just the Teletubbies though).
Regarding my offer...Don't give up trying. Think Long and think Hard, you probably won't be able to come up with something, but the Training will do you good!
So you say that "there are" right and wrong opinions, and then when JSW makes a joke about how yours are wrong you respond with such a post...yeesh.
You've made yourself look at lot worse than you did him.
A "Yes, and your opinion is wrong...... " coupled with a bleeking smiley is hardly a joke. I just commented on the childishness of his reply. I mean add stomping and hyperventilating and you have a spoiled 5 years old!
Look, i made my offer (to anybody by the Way) and all both of you have come up to is the "Silva is Out for revenge" Thing to prove how logical SF is.The Rest is attacking me,instead of disarming my points (which None of you has even tried ) if they are so far Off aim.
The emoticon he chose shows that it was all a joke, something you already failed to understand the moment you began insulting him and his comment. Laugh a little, it won't hurt. You could make the argument that @jetsetwilly is being childish (though not convincingly), but it can also be said that you are being equally immature to try and declare that some opinions are absolutely inferior beliefs.
Thanks for the back-up guys, but you are really wasting your time on this child. He has no sense of humour whatsoever, and has the intellect of undiscovered amoeba on Saturn. I just like to wind him up if nothing else (its not too hard to do).
At least he provides sound entertainment with his responses..... :))
As a motivation for the baddie it is a decent one, nothing wrong with it.
007 has done this before so nothing really shocking. I was kind of dissapointed that Craigs Bond did not dump Severines body in a garbage can so we had some sort of theme towards the DC "allies". ;)
I understand her reasoning but yet it fails her jobdescription and her characterisation from earlier movies. She was willing to send people to their deaths in order to get the mission acomplished. Here she suddenly as one of the important people in the UK decides that she is not and walks out. She should have had a legion of SAS around her and use the full might of MI6 and MI5 to hunt down Silva. So imho Skyfall should have been Silva's ancesteral home and Bond should have gone down there hunting for Silva. And if M did come to Scotland it would have been to over lead the mopping up of the Silva problem and if He then would have compromised her security and killed her it would have made more sense. Her fleeing with 007 to an undefend Scotland makes NO sense whatsoever.
The need for Mendes to establish Bonds roots did mess up the story's logic, Silva's roots would have been a far better choice as final act and M's death due to smartness of villain and not stupidity of 007 & M.
Following 007 & M does make sense but due to its stupidity of an earlier decision namely to flee out of safety I could not really care about this bit at all. Even if all major people of MI6 should have known better and drop a a large army unit on Skyfall to begin with.
Exactly.
Jeez does anybody read this thread? JSW gave some points he thought made sense and Matt Helm would point out the illogic with his points, which he failed to do. However I did pick up that bit and agreed for half the time with JSW and the other half I disagree.
SF would have made more sense if they had made the estate Silva's birthplace where he went to hide after his attempt on M failed. M as powerfull as she would have called in every service she would have had at her fingertips in order to go after Silva now that he had been recognised as the thread. Hence 007 going to Skyfall and M being guarded by a shedload of serious manpower goes along to suprevise the mop up operation. We get a final battle between 007 & Silva which goes somewhat wrong and he gets to kill M nonetheless and 007 avenges her.
That would be a heck better in character for both M & 007, and would be more logical an ending as well. It would undoubtely more Flemingesque as well.
I found the last act both stupid and uncharacteristic with M & 007's decision, and it made her death look like incompetent and made 007 look like he was way too old for this sh&t.
And O'Brady M is the boss of MI6 she is more important for the goverment than any footsoldier, her death would be egg in the face of the goverment. Her reputation would be improved if she had tracked down Silva and dealt with him instead of running away like a little girlie. That was one thing she never was so her decision was totaly out of character and if you want to love everything about the Craig era please look a wee bit more subjectively. This was just poor scripting just like the sinking house in Venice.
Great point, and that also points to why he came in the second wave. If Silva saw a huge "army" of people waiting with Bond for him, he would turn back and Bond/MI6 would lose him again. He would then come back stronger than before and wreak even more havoc to get to M, killing untold numbers at who knows what costs. Bond needed to make sure that he would come to them and not turn back, so he couldn't risk orchestrating any kind of special surprise attack or have anything up his sleeve so that Silva would come to the fight and not turn back. Then he was able to take Silva out head to head and stop future destruction he would have caused.