Robert Brown's M

The_Preacher711

A question for The Community:

Robert Brown's M- who is he to you?

Is the character of Sir Miles, simply played by a new actor (as happens with Bond)?

Is he just a Sir Mile's replacement following his retirement?

Is he Admiral Hargreaves from TSWLM (I know the ranks on his uniform in TSWLM and LD don't match up)?

Or do you see him some other way......

This came up while chatting to two other Bond fans on the commute home last night. Each of the three of us saw Brown's M in a different way......

So, which is it for you?

While some evidence is against it, I've always liked the idea that it's Admiral Hargreaves from TSWLM, in a new job.....

Bond

Well, in FYEO it is said that Bernard Lee's M is on "vacation", so it's presumed that in 1983 when we are introduced to Brown as M, it is Sir Miles back from vacation (albeit as a different actor).

Nowhere in the film canon is it hinted at that Bernard Lee's Miles Messervy either quit, died or took any extended leave of absence. Nothing is ever specified, so we can only assume that Robert Brown is a continuation of Sir Miles. Just as with when Felix Leiter and Miss Moneypenny get new actors to portray them.

As for Judi Dench's M, it is made clear by Brosnan's Bond that she had a "predecessor". In the post-2006 reboot continuity however, it can be assumed that, either:


A) Sir Miles Messervy still preceded Judi Dench's M, but in this continuity he never met and will never meet Bond as a 00 agent.

or

B) Judi Dench's female M is actually Sir Miles' predecessor in the reboot canon, and when Judi leaves the role, the new M (assuming he's male) will be introduced as Miles Messervy, much like we can expect the new Q to be introduced as Major Boothroyd instead of just "Q" as John Cleese was briefly known.

MajorDSmythe

Well, he's my favourite M. But I think of Lee's M as Messervy, while Brown is his replacement, Admiral Hargreaves - later M. It makes more sense (to me, anyway) to think of it that way.

NicNac

Hmm difficult one. I think I would go with his M being the same person.

gt007

Well the way I see it, Lee and Brown's are two different characters.
Lee's character seems to have a sense of humour, often making witty comments (eg "Jealous husbands, outraged chefs, humiliated tailors! The list is endless!", TMWTGG), while Brown's is more of the serious, strictly business type of boss. Also, Lee's M refers to Bond by his first name a couple of times, both in his last appearances, showing some intimacy. That intimacy was gone when Brown took over.
So to me they're two different persons. Bernanrd Lee is Sir Miles Messervy, Robert Brown is Admiral Hargreaves.

PrinceKamalKhan

I think Brown was playing Admiral Sir Miles Messervy since there is no mention otherwise on screen. However, the idea that Robert Brown's M was playing Admiral Hargreaves is a good one.

saunders

I've always assumed that because Brown's first appearance as M in OP afforded him no introduction then he was probably meant to be playing the same character as Lee. I suppose it was left deliberately vague so those who wanted to see him as James Bonds literary superior Sir Miles Messervy could do so while those who found Brown too different from Lee could just accept him as a new character doing the same role.

NicNac

It's all pretty mixed up with actors changing over the years. M changed in 83, Bond changed in 69 and 73 yet Q and Penny stayed the same. Then Penny and Bond changed in 87, M stayed the same and Q as well.
So, was Penny the same person when Lois finished? After all Bond himself was always meant to be the same person.
And of course Q was replaced in 99/2002, not re-cast.

I don't think the Prods really gave it much thought when Brown was cast. (Even less so when Judi's M went back in time whilst ageing as she did so).

So, it's open to your own interpretation.

dragonsky

ah we cant discuss about this cause it is impossible to find the truth.if we start discussing about this than what about M of Dench?She replaced male M so that means Bond first meeting with female M is while he is already established and he is 00.
but in Craig role he become 00 when there was female M so we just cant discuss some things cause they are impossible

AgentJamesBond007

I think Robert Brown was Sir Miles, due to a lack of explaination of what had happenes to the previous M. Possibly if this isn't the case if due to Bond already knowing of the change between Messervy and Hargreaves prior to the OP scenes. Most likely Hargreaves's first mission for Bond was the whole arieal stunt in the pre-titles

jaguar007

Quoting NicNac: I don't think the Prods really gave it much thought when Brown was cast.

I think you are correct. I had read that Roger Moore suggested Brown for the role of M as they had been friends for many years. They probably just assumed that most people would not remember Brown's bit part in TSWLM (just like in TSWLM they didn't expect people to remember George Baker from OHMSS or Shane Rimmer etc).

St_George

@jaguar007 @NicNac I'd say you've both hit the nail on the head there. Looking at it more deeply, mind, I suspect we're supposed to assume Lee and Brown's Ms are the same character - albeit with differences in personalities - just as Conners' and Sir Rog's Bonds are.

The idea Brown's version could be Spy's Admiral Hargreaves is an intriguing one, though...

The_Reaper

I consider him Hargreaves. B/c I like continuity.

Luds

Quoting jaguar007:

Quoting NicNac: I don't think the Prods really gave it much thought when Brown was cast.

I think you are correct. I had read that Roger Moore suggested Brown for the role of M as they had been friends for many years. They probably just assumed that most people would not remember Brown's bit part in TSWLM (just like in TSWLM they didn't expect people to remember George Baker from OHMSS or Shane Rimmer etc).

I agree with you jaguar, I get the same feeling as for many of the recasts, however, I like the idea that Brown's M was Hargreaves and later became M once Sir Miles retired.

Benny

It's what you could call the 'nerd factor'.
Film makers and producers are not thinking of these minor little details when the have actors playing multiple parts in their films. Yet to the eagle eyed long-term fans they stick out like a sore thumb.
I guess the thing is we're not supposed to question it. But it's a question that should be answerable.
Perhaps film makers as a whole should look at such ramifications before they cast or change story-lines over multiple films. It's plagued the series for years.

As for Robert Browns M, I've always liked him. He displays the correct amount of warmth whilst being in authority. His admiration of Bond is well played and his best performance as M for me would be TLD.
Whether is Messervy or Haregraves doesn't really bother me. He's just M.

jaguar007

Not that this means anything, because it really doesn't, but as a point of interest the cast listing on IMDB for OP and AVTAK list him as M/Admiral Myles Messervy

Bond

Which means my theory was right.

JamesC

1

St_George

Quoting jaguar007:

Not that this means anything, because it really doesn't, but as a point of interest the cast listing on IMDB for OP and AVTAK list him as M/Admiral Myles Messervy

Quoting Bond: Which means my theory was right.

If you consider imdb the authority on all things Bond, that is... ;)

00Beast

Well, I'd consider him more of Admiral Hargreaves who was promoted to M when Sir Miles retired, or died, considering we really don't know what happened to him. In any event, I never liked Robert Brown's M. He was always way too critical, fussy, and uptight. He was all business all the time, which is probably why we didn't see that much of him!

thelordflasheart

In any event, I never liked Robert Brown's M. He was always way too critical, fussy, and uptight. He was all business all the time, which is probably why we didn't see that much of him!

Agree completely. Lee was so great in the part that almost anyone would suffer in comparison, but I found Brown a poor substitute. There are two things that I love about Lee's portaryal. He's so tough and has such a commanding presence that you could easily see a 30 year old Miles Messervy and Connery's Bond raising hell out on the town together. Not that Miles would be as much of a ladies' man as Bond, but I could see the two of them drinking like fishes, gambling, and fighting together side-by-side in a bar fight. Much like Jean-Luc Picard, I can see him being a bit of a bad-ass before he matured and assumed command.

The other thing I like is that Connery's Bond has such a clear and genuine respect for M. Even if he irritates M there's always deference in the end (it's interesting that Lazenby's Bond, younger and in a film around the time of the youth movement, is more rebellious!). I doubt we would ever see such a relationship again - I read a great article a couple of years ago that the coveted 16-25 year old demographic for films and TV shows don't like characters who are completely deferential to authority.

Goldeneye95

Robert Brown made a decent M. I wish Bernard Lee did not pass away from his stomach cancer. Lee was brilliant as M. Bernard Lee captured the personality of M from Fleming's novels.

Baltimore_007

Brown was the worst M @Goldeneye95

Totally devoid of character or vigor, a lacklustre and colorless character or figure, and it's a relief in retrospect, he only got to appear in a handful of releases. Too bad two of those had to be for Timothy Dalton's tenure. Bernard Lee was the greatest, will never be beaten, and Dench, despite giving the same 17 years of service to the James Bond franchise, simply couldn't quite match up, but Brown is far and away the worst of the lot. I always thought Gordon Jackson from British 70's police drama The Professionals would of made a very good M. He reminded me of Lee. Co-star Lewis Collins could of been Bond at the time just for good measure, but it wasn't to be

Goldeneye95

Baltimore_007 wrote:

Brown was the worst M @Goldeneye95

Totally devoid of character or vigor, a lacklustre and colorless character or figure, and it's a relief in retrospect, he only got to appear in a handful of releases. Too bad two of those had to be for Timothy Dalton's tenure. Bernard Lee was the greatest, will never be beaten, and Dench, despite giving the same 17 years of service to the James Bond franchise, simply couldn't quite match up, but Brown is far and away the worst of the lot. I always thought Gordon Jackson from British 70's police drama The Professionals would of made a very good M. He reminded me of Lee. Co-star Lewis Collins could of been Bond at the time just for good measure, but it wasn't to be

I know! I thought there were better chioce to play M at the time. I didn't really care to much for Robert Brown as M.

CharlesDreyfus

I tend to assume he was Sir Miles, since that's undoubtedly what the filmmakers were thinking at the time (similar to multiple actors playing Bond, Leiter, Blofeld, etc.). If they'd intended it to be a new character, they probably would have had some dialogue acknowledging it (a la Dench in GE, Cleese in DAD, and Whishaw in SF - all of whom reference their predecessors). Even if he isn't Sir Miles, I really doubt he's Admiral Hargreaves. First of all, SF has established a trend that all M's tend to have a surname starting with M (Messervey, Mansfield, Mallory). Secondly, as someone pointed out, he was cast due to his friendship with Roger Moore - I'm sure no one was giving any thought to what roles he'd played previously in the series, any more than they did with Walter Gotell, Maud Adams, etc.

But there's really no solid evidence either way, and this will probably always be one of the biggest unanswered questions in the franchise. The only people left who could maybe give us a definitive answer are M. G. Wilson and Roger Moore. My guess is Sir Roger would brush it off with a quip, and MGW would be as evasive as possible. :)

An interesting thought.....I'd always assumed that Dench replaced Brown because they were looking to distance themselves from the '80s films and start anew. But a quick Google search reveals that Brown apparently didn't do any acting after 1991, even though he lived another 12 years. Does anyone know why he "retired"? If he had continued acting, might Eon have used him in GE? We could have ended up with a very different series, particularly once we got into the Craig films!

pachazo

The_Reaper wrote:

I consider him Hargreaves. B/c I like continuity.

I like to think that myself too! I don't think that was what they intended though. Anyway I guess I'm surprised by all the dislike for Robert Brown's M. He's no Bernard Lee for sure but I thought he did as good as anyone could have trying to fill those enormous shoes. I suppose if you view him as a different character, as I do, it helps to accept his version.

dkem91

I personally always thought it was Admiral Hargreaves from TSWLM promoted. Until this thread I never even entertained the notion that it could be Sir Miles played by a new actor. It is a thought to ponder. Although Brown's M seems to have a history with General Gogal that Lee's M didn't . Or at least that's the impression I got after watching Moor's last three Bond's followed by TLD recently

Agent7F

Well only he did 5 appearance in the Bond movies. First Admiral then M replacing Bernard Lee. If Bond 17 was done in 1991 or 92 he could had done his reprise M role for the 5th time. I remember him couple times in Roger Moore's The Saint.

CharlesDreyfus

dkem91 wrote:

Although Brown's M seems to have a history with General Gogal that Lee's M didn't . Or at least that's the impression I got after watching Moor's last three Bond's followed by TLD recently

Lee's M had a pretty close relationship with Gogol - they were on a first-name basis in TSWLM (the only time Sir Miles was called by name in the film series).

dkem91

Your right, I had forgotten about that. Thanks sir. I have to admit, this thread has had me wondering on if they are two different M's or not. Well, gives me an excuse to go back and rewatch some of the classics. Looks like I need to start with "The Spy Who Loved Me".

Whitaker1987

MajorDSmythe wrote:

Well, he's my favourite M. But I think of Lee's M as Messervy, while Brown is his replacement, Admiral Hargreaves - later M. It makes more sense (to me, anyway) to think of it that way.

I like all the Ms to date equally. I also really enjoyed FYEO with Geoffrey Keen & Chief of Staff being in charge. More of Brown may have been nicer but I was satisfied overall.