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Can You Be Totally Objective?

chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
edited November 2012 in Bond Movies Posts: 17,789
Regardless of your personal tastes, can you pick the best Bond movie, not as a Bond movie, but just as a MOVIE? The best FILM made in which the character of James Bond is the subject?

For reference, my favourite BOND movie is TLD, and Craig is not my favourite Bond actor. That said, (and keeping in mind I have not yet seen Skyfall), my pick, as objectively as I can be, is Casino Royale.

Have I been objective here? Would YOUR pick be different? Is YOUR 'best' and favourite the same movie?

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Comments

  • Agent005Agent005
    Posts: 562
    As objectively as possible, I'd have to say that FRWL, CR, or Skyfall would be the best of the bunch.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I would still say CR or FRWL, which happen to be my top two. But I am trying to not be objective. The films just have a great image of a cold, tough and smart Bond with great mixes of funny, drama, and some heavy emotion (CR: Bond and Vesper, FRWL: Bond finding Kerim dead).
  • Seven_Point_Six_FiveSeven_Point_Six_Five Southern California
    Posts: 1,257
    In my opinion, I would say Casino Royale is the best film.
  • JWESTBROOKJWESTBROOK
    Posts: 5,745
    Casino Royale.

    FRWL, great as it is, but does have certain plot holes and altogether seems to skip over some relatively important scenes due to a tight filming schedule. The editing saves it, but it's still easy to notice that some characters suddenly have information, or other loopholes that are otherwise unexplained.

    Casino Royale is just straightforward action and fun, while still managing a strong plot and a tug at the heart. All around great film.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    There are many ways to be 'objective'- it's not math.
    For instance, I feel the 'best' movie *could* be TND, from a completely well-rounded & fun entertainment perspective... FRWL from a purely cold-war spy movie perspective... TSWLM from a balls-out comic book movie perspective...
    However, my movie-making instincts simply point to CR as the best movie in general... and I seem, so far, to be seeing some measure of agreement here.
  • OHMSS69OHMSS69
    edited November 2012 Posts: 2,341
    OHMSS of the way it developes the relationship between Bond and his future bride. the final scene where she is tragically gunned down is the same road where the two met in the PTS. Also Bond having to rely on his fist and wits to get out of a jam.
    The story of " boy meets girl, boy loses girl, boy gets girl" is here in this film. The irony of how Bond's violent past catches up with him and claims his new bride. Despite his having saved the world he cannot save his wife from the violence he brings with him.
    Finally Tracie dies just when she felt she had a reason to live: she has a future now. It would not be until CR 39 years later before Bond was ever taken so seriously....

    I rank CR and LTK close seconds to OHMSS
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited November 2012 Posts: 17,789
    OHMSS69 wrote:
    It would not be until CR 39 years later before Bond was ever taken so seriously....
    I rank CR and LTK close seconds to OHMSS
    VERY nice assessment OHMSS69! I hadn't considered that.... however, LTK sort of depends upon a knowledge of Bond's history, and.... even OHMSS cannot be considered a totally stand-alone film... hmmmm... more to think about!

  • Agent005Agent005
    Posts: 562
    chrisisall wrote:
    .... even OHMSS cannot be considered a totally stand-alone film...

    I'm not sure that I agree with that. To my way of thinking, OHMSS is one of the best stand-alone films in the canon. It could almost be considered the first 'reboot' of the Bond series...

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited November 2012 Posts: 17,789
    Agent005 wrote:
    To my way of thinking, OHMSS is one of the best stand-alone films in the canon. It could almost be considered the first 'reboot' of the Bond series...
    Imagine seeing OHMSS never having seen a Bond movie before... I don't know...? Could it work as a spy movie cold? I mean, regardless of "the other fellow" line.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    JWESTBROOK wrote:
    Casino Royale.

    FRWL, great as it is, but does have certain plot holes and altogether seems to skip over some relatively important scenes due to a tight filming schedule. The editing saves it, but it's still easy to notice that some characters suddenly have information, or other loopholes that are otherwise unexplained.

    Casino Royale is just straightforward action and fun, while still managing a strong plot and a tug at the heart. All around great film.

    What plot holes?
  • Agent005Agent005
    Posts: 562
    chrisisall wrote:
    Agent005 wrote:
    To my way of thinking, OHMSS is one of the best stand-alone films in the canon. It could almost be considered the first 'reboot' of the Bond series...
    Imagine seeing OHMSS never having seen a Bond movie before... I don't know...? Could it work as a spy movie cold? I mean, regardless of "the other fellow" line.

    I think it would come off as more of a drama/love story than a spy movie if you hadn't seen any other Bond films, but I think it still works by itself.

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    Oh, it's a terrific movie in its own right, I'm just wondering how a non-Bond fan might receive it, and how that plays into it being seen as a great MOVIE, as opposed to a great BOND movie is all.
  • Agent005Agent005
    Posts: 562
    Ah, I see. That makes sense.
  • sirseanisbondsirseanisbond
    Posts: 2,189
    Might I make an argument for GF, and TB here? They deserve at the very least an honorable mention, and are at most right on par with FRWL, which is slightly overrated in my book. For me, of the three from best to worst, GE and TB are tied and FRWL is a clear seccond place, but again that’s just me not being objective at all.

    As for those who picked CR, I think that our present obsession with it is a bit predictable and convenient. If this website had been around back in 1995 or ’99 even, I’m sure that people would have been prattling on about how GE was the best all-around Bond film yet and that it very well might go down in history as the best Bond ever. True objectivity is impossible unless you’re a robot who can live outside the bonds of time. Sure CR was great and it may very well go down as one of the best Bond films ever made, but one must always be mindful of the present, and what unconscious thoughts may be blinding you from something truthful. So yes, thinking as objectivly as I can I would also most likley go with CR. However I prefer to know where I stand and make judgments from the fiber of my emotional sole. Give me TB and GF any day!
  • jackdaggerjackdagger
    Posts: 498
    I think I'm going to say License to Kill. It's a great action movie. I had some friends who'd never seen a Bond film in their life and they watched that one first and liked it a lot.
    For the thriller/drama genre, I'd have to go with Casino Royale.
  • TheBondFanTheBondFan
    Posts: 822
    I would say SKYFALL. It has all the pieces of an action thriller: Great villain, story, and character development.
  • 00Beast00Beast
    Posts: 4,762
    Has to be GoldenEye. The characters are excellently written, particularly Trevelan, Natalya, and Ourumov. The action sequences are beyond thrilling, the soundtrack is distinct and very well done, Brosnan in his debut is just explosive, and the plot is amazingly gripping and intriguing from the get-go. An A+ movie even without considering it being in the Bond franchise.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,959
    Since I rank GE as both my favorite Bond film and in my Top 5 films of all time - occasionally; this list changes constantly anymore, it seems - I would still have to say GE.

    If not GE, my next pick would have to be CR. It just feels like a near perfect film every time I watch it, with so many great moments and elements.
  • JWESTBROOKJWESTBROOK
    Posts: 5,745
    Creasy47 wrote:
    Since I rank GE as both my favorite Bond film and in my Top 5 films of all time - occasionally; this list changes constantly anymore, it seems - I would still have to say GE.

    If not GE, my next pick would have to be CR. It just feels like a near perfect film every time I watch it, with so many great moments and elements.

    That's interesting, objectively speaking. Goldeneye is a pretty solid film altogether. I personally would say, objectively speaking, it doesn't have a strong lead, but it's a tight little film.

    I just don't feel like you get into Brosnan's character of Bond. To me, he's the most forgettable performance in that film. But that doesn't make it a bad film. Objectively, it's a good film, worth the time, that fits as comedic, thrilling, dramatic, and just fun.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    edited November 2012 Posts: 40,959
    @JWESTBROOK, I can see where you're coming from. I think Brosnan is a love-or-hate Bond, and since he introduced me to the world of 007 and had me digging for the rest of his projects, both pre and post Bond, I've loved him ever since.
  • 00130013
    Posts: 1,817
    Totally objectively no... but I'll do my best.
    I believe FRWL is as best one can get. It has an amazing story by Fleming, one of the greatest Bond performances by Connery, superb acting by Bianchi, Shaw, Lenya, Armendáriz, as well as the MI6 regulars M and Monepenny. Plus Blofeld unseen is the most menacing of them all. The fights are rough, the action is great, the locations are exotic... The Orient Express is a classic sequence. The music is very good as well as the photograph and editing. I can't complain about anything.

    Close to be best are OHMSS and CR... and perhaps I'll say SF but I have to wait until the excitement passes a little in order to rewatch it more coldly and objectively, as M would say.
  • JimThompson45JimThompson45
    Posts: 803
    No one can be totally objective. The best one can work for is to be as rational as possible.

    As for which Bond movie is simply the "best" movie, I guess I'd go with one of three: From Russia With Love, Casino Royale, and Skyfall, with an honorable mention to On Her Majesty's Secret Service. Each of those I thought, is well shot, well acted, tightly plotted, and remains true to its own internal structure throughout.
  • YtterbiumYtterbium
    Posts: 269
    One can never be objective when talking about a film, just by establishing criteria to judge it.
    But what we can do with the Bond film, is try to see them, without paying attention to the fact that they are Bond film. hence, the only thing that matte becomes (for me) how good a thriller it is.

    Very few Bond film can be judged as Thriller or Spy movie only, the reason being that most of them are doing some self-irony, and develop extraordinary things which can only happen in a Bond movie.

    Then, the only films, in my opinion, which can assessed only as thrillers are FRWL, OHMSS, CR, maybe TWINE. The other pay too much tribute to each other, or too much time doing bondian stuff.
  • UmustbjockingUmustbjocking
    Posts: 83
    Objective? Ok. The James Bond series has died for me. It started with DAD and the CGI junk, then came the reboot. CR is excellent film but it takes Bond in a different direction which is not Bond. I waited for SF, and its a great movie. But Bond has died.
  • JimThompson45JimThompson45
    Posts: 803
    Umustbjocking wrote:
    Objective? Ok. The James Bond series has died for me. It started with DAD and the CGI junk, then came the reboot. CR is excellent film but it takes Bond in a different direction which is not Bond. I waited for SF, and its a great movie. But Bond has died.
    I had the completely opposite reaction, especially to the relaunch; for me, Fleming's Bond is back in the limelight.

  • M_BaljeM_Balje Amsterdam, Netherlands
    edited November 2012 Posts: 4,510
    I can try it but only if i change the quistion a litle bit, what i think be the best Bond movie who can work as none Bond movie ?

    Goldeneye. First movie in the cinema when i have a minimum/nothing experience of Bond. It be a very good action movie, whyle of course tradional things you discover later on make it more pleasure to watch.

    Tomorrow Never Dies

    Licence To Kill

    Die Another Day. DAD get a hugh boxoffice.

    Casino Royale. As said before, CR is movie for the none Bond fans whyle QOS be a movie for the fans. Biggest problem be Pierce Brosnan goodby and DC introduction be a violence one (I don't know how some people feels when there saw LTK but when i saw CR i feel it a litle bit think what people must have feeling with LTK), this movie work better as 16+/R movie and mabey LTK in 1989 too. LTK have the luck it now a les violence movie, CR almoost double the violence. Other things in CR are done better in OHMSS and Twine. M les infect the story as in Twine (QOS/Skyfall) because she not realy get the change for it and there relation ship look normal, mabey a bit more as in GE/DAD and as standalone that wil not a problem.

    The World Is Not Enough.

    Older movies:

    Dr No, Goldfinger,On Her Majesty's Secret Service, Live and Let Die, TMWTGG, TSWLM, FYEO, OP, AVTAK and TLD.

    From Russia With Love and QOS are a bit dificult: Both need the previous movie whyle Dr No not realy need FRWL, QOS need CR. But FRWL and QOS also have both a kind of open end.
  • GetafixGetafix
    edited November 2012 Posts: 11,425
    As all members know, I am always, at all times and in all places100% objective.

    And the answer to which is the best film? FRWL. Obviously.

    Favourite Bond is a tough one. As well as FRWL, I really enjoy GF, OHMSS, TSWLM, and TLD. Having favourites is all about being subjective however.

    Having siad that, I do think you can make a strong objective argument for FRWL being the best film in the series. The fact so many people have named it here shows there is something of a consensus as well.

  • robotsrulerobotsrule
    Posts: 18
    If we're discussing "filmmaking" here then it has to be Skyfall. It had academy award winning direction and cinematography. It's a beautiful film. But is it the best Bond? No. It's too tonally dark. I ranked it 4/23. CR is also a good "film". But in terms of what is the best Bond "movie"? For me it's FRWL or YOLT.
  • JimThompson45JimThompson45
    Posts: 803
    I'm always a little surprised when people hold You Only Live Twice in such high regard. For me, it's one of the weaker entries in the franchise.
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    JimThompson45 wrote:
    I'm always a little surprised when people hold You Only Live Twice in such high regard. For me, it's one of the weaker entries in the franchise.

    Definitely not the best film in the series, but still very entertaining, IMO.

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