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Rank the John Gardner continuation novels

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  • QuarterdeckQuarterdeck
    Posts: 136
    Pretty to hard to rank JG as I just don't think they're that good. And in the case of something like 'No Deals...' even harder as I can hardly recall any of it! Still, here we go..

    1. Nobody Lives Forever
    2. Win, Lose or Die
    3. Licence Renewed
    4. Brokenclaw (I seem to be alone in liking this one)
    5. Role of Honour
    6. For Special Services
    7. Scorpius
    8. Death is Forever
    9. Seafire
    10. Icebreaker
    11. Never Send Flowers
    12. No Deals Mr Bond
    13. The Man From Barbarossa

    Not yet read 'Cold' so can't comment there.

    JG usually has pretty serviceable plots, locations and characters...there's just something flat about his prose style that doesn't engage me. By the time he gets to 'Seafire' the descriptive passages feel like he's just copying from a travel brochure. Though I do appreciate he was under a lot of deadline pressure to crank them out.

    Given the basic elements though, I'd love to see these in comic/graphic novel form where they'd work a lot better I think.....
  • timmertimmer
    Posts: 4,622
    I enjoyed all his books but I can't really rank them as there was a sameness to them.

    I would rank No Deals Mr Bond as one of my favourites and maybe the first two as well.
    Bond is particularly dangerous in NDMB.

    I agree though that the earlier ones were the best. Maybe books 1 through 8 and then they kind of leveled off.
  • SimGSimG
    Posts: 10
    John Gardener... Wow. It's hard to praise a man who mostly destroyed the image of Bond! The original continuity is genius, as both Kinglsey Amis and Sebastian Faulks continued in a vein primarily inspired by Fleming, whereas Gardener decided to age Bond without taking into consideration continuity. Bond would be well into his seventies by BrokenClaw, and his best friend offering up his own daughter as Bond's "reward"? Am I the only one who finds that sickening? He also carries his SAAB 900 along with him wherever he goes, a car all gadgeted out... what happened to the stealth Bentley? His previous two Bentleys where the badge delete sleeper cars of our day, made to not stand out, and absolutely minimalist. Light cigarettes? Less booze? What? Really? His missions revolve around ancestors and poseurs and new Blofeld this and that, its a little dragged out. Blofeld was spilt over 3 novels and Fleming put that to rest. C'mon.
    Dear INTREPID you have every right to slag off my Father's continuation novels, he is dead and cannot respond. But at least you could have the courtesy of spelling his name right! JOHN GARDNER not GARDENER!!!! Oh and as for the SAAB the gadgeted version existed and is now in a museum. If you hated the books so much why did you bother to read them? You have absolutely no idea of the restrictions both the publishers (UK & US) and Glidrose/Ian Fleming Estate imposed on the creation of his continuation novels as in respect of what he could and couldn't write. Also they can't be such bad books seeing that they will be reprinted on both sides of the Atlantic later this year to celebrate the 30th Anniversary of the publishing of Licence Renewed. So far John Gardner's continuation series has been the most successful to date.

    Simon Richard Gardner May 2011 www.john-gardner.com
  • saunderssaunders Living in a world of avarice and deceit
    edited May 2011 Posts: 987
    Welcome to the site SimG and rest assured that intrepid does not speak for all of us, and there are many including myself that hold most of your fathers work in very high regard, people forget that in the early nineties he was the only one producing new Bond material in any format . You must be very proud and rightly so, it's a very great pleasure to have you among us and I hope you continue to contribute.
  • SimGSimG
    edited May 2011 Posts: 10
    Thank You Saunders appreciate your comments. I was in the process of creating a direct link to this discussion with the Facebook page The Complete Works of John Edmund Gardner but in doing so INTREPID'S "John Gardener... Wow. It's hard to praise a man who mostly destroyed the image of Bond! " came up in the link so decided to just let people know this discussion was going on. I will probably no doubt be entering into more discussions when the anniversary editions hit the stores later this year. And yes I am damn proud of what my Father achieved and individuals trashing his work will not take that away from me. Peace & Thanks Simon Richard John Gardner
  • timmertimmer
    Posts: 4,622
    The problem that both Gardner and Benson's books will always face are comparisons with Fleming, which isn't really fair. They need be judged on their own merits.
    That said, I happily bought all the Gardner books as they came out. I have most in first editions hardbacks, in fact 10 of the 14, and all of the paperbacks, including the screenplay adaptations, so I guess I must have been "down" with the books. Happy Bond camper here!
  • BounineBounine
    edited May 2011 Posts: 2,598
    They are certainly enjoyable books but I think the first half are better than the second. Having said that there are wonderful scenes in those books in the latter half too. I thoroughly enjoyed re-reading the Gardner books in 2009. Good spy thrillers in their own right too. I said this to Lucy Fleming on the night of the Devil May Care launch day. I actually asked her too if she had plans to reprint the Gardner books and she didn't say yes or no. I wonder if she did actually have these plans back then...

    Yes, welcome SimG. Don't suppose you are allowed to enlighten us on some of the restrictions the publishers put on your father? ;-)
  • SimGSimG
    Posts: 10
    They are certainly enjoyable books but I think the first half are better than the second. Having said that there are wonderful scenes in those books in the latter half too. I thoroughly enjoyed re-reading the Gardner books in 2009. Good spy thrillers in their own right too. I said this to Lucy Fleming on the night of the Devil May Care launch day. I actually asked her too if she had plans to reprint the Gardner books and she didn't say yes or no. I wonder if she did actually have these plans back then...

    Yes, welcome SimG. Don't suppose you are allowed to enlighten us on some of the restrictions the publishers put on your father? ;-)
    Thanks for the welcome. Bounine. As the Gardner continuation novels are about to be re-printed I am not sure if I want to go back over old ground regarding the way things were handled by various parties back in the 1980's when John was commissioned to do Licence Renewed and then the further novels. If you read back through various interviews with him during his time of writing the books he does voice his frustrations. We are hoping to expand www.john-gardner.com over the coming months and to include more rare interviews, and also to cover more of his other work outside of Bond. One of the best overviews in my opinion of Gardner's Bond, is the interview that Raymond Benson conducted with him while we were living in Charlottesville VA. This can be found re-printed in full on the website. Oh and I have no idea if they had plans for the re-prints back when 'Devil May Care' was launched. My feeling would be I suspect not at that time.
    Simon Richard John Gardner
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    SimG - I wouldnt pay much attention to the ramblings of Intrepid. As you say its not exactly intrepid to slag off someone who is dead and unable to defend themselves. The fact that he uses 'genius' and 'Faulks' in the same sentence reveals how little he understands the character of Bond (and what on earth is a stealth Bentley when its at home?).

    I have very fond memories of your fathers Bond novels and will certainly be snapping up some of the reprints (but why cant they use the original Richard Chopping covers?).
    The climaxes of Licence Renewed and Nobody Lives Forever in particular are cracking fare and place our hero in some of the tightest spots hes ever been in.

    I do think he shouldve maybe called it a day a bit earlier as I think the last 3 are pretty by the numbers but as I understand it he had quite a lot of stuff going on in his personal life at the time and if Glidrose keep on paying you who wouldnt take the cheque?

    At the end of the day he is rembered by me as being in good company with Kingsley Amis as the only author to come anywhere near replicating the excitement and success of Flemings literary creation and for that I am grateful.

    RIP John.
  • timmertimmer
    Posts: 4,622
    I'm glad both Gardner and Benson were able to crank out a new book every year. I looked forward to each new adult adventure.
    Hopefully we can get back to fresh new adventures each and every year with the new series.
    Young Bond, it was nice knowing you.
  • SimGSimG
    Posts: 10
    I'm glad both Gardner and Benson were able to crank out a new book every year. I looked forward to each new adult adventure.
    Hopefully we can get back to fresh new adventures each and every year with the new series.
    Young Bond, it was nice knowing you.
    From what I can gather, Mr. Higson would love to do more Young Bond books if he was asked to.

  • SimGSimG
    Posts: 10
    SimG - I wouldnt pay much attention to the ramblings of Intrepid. As you say its not exactly intrepid to slag off someone who is dead and unable to defend themselves. The fact that he uses 'genius' and 'Faulks' in the same sentence reveals how little he understands the character of Bond (and what on earth is a stealth Bentley when its at home?).

    I have very fond memories of your fathers Bond novels and will certainly be snapping up some of the reprints (but why cant they use the original Richard Chopping covers?).
    The climaxes of Licence Renewed and Nobody Lives Forever in particular are cracking fare and place our hero in some of the tightest spots hes ever been in.

    I do think he shouldve maybe called it a day a bit earlier as I think the last 3 are pretty by the numbers but as I understand it he had quite a lot of stuff going on in his personal life at the time and if Glidrose keep on paying you who wouldnt take the cheque?

    At the end of the day he is rembered by me as being in good company with Kingsley Amis as the only author to come anywhere near replicating the excitement and success of Flemings literary creation and for that I am grateful.

    RIP John.
    I think he is quoted in the mi6 declassified final interview that he should have stopped before the last 3, and yes his personal life at the time was not good due to illness and a host of other things. Only Licence Renewed had a Chopping Jacket, the ones that followed were 'in the style of'. Chopping wanted way too much money for continuing the series for Johnathan Cape. The reprints in the UK will hopefully feature the original Cape jackets. Thanks for your kind comments. Simon Richard John Gardner
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    Posts: 13,355
    I'm glad both Gardner and Benson were able to crank out a new book every year. I looked forward to each new adult adventure.
    Hopefully we can get back to fresh new adventures each and every year with the new series.
    Young Bond, it was nice knowing you.
    From what I can gather, Mr. Higson would love to do more Young Bond books if he was asked to.

    Bond would be a different age though and not 13/14 as he was in Higson's last five novels. A new series would be set in Bond's late teens which could be a great angle to explore.

    I'd love Higson to tackle an adult Bond book though, I think he do very well.
  • BounineBounine
    edited May 2011 Posts: 2,598
    Early twenties would be good I reckon - Bond's war days. Higson mentioned this too in his talk at the Imperial War Museum.

    Yeah, Higson and Weinberg should write an adult Bond book.
  • timmertimmer
    edited May 2011 Posts: 4,622

    From what I can gather, Mr. Higson would love to do more Young Bond books if he was asked to.
    I think Young Bond should be put to bed. 5 books is enough. Also Higson kind of closed the chapter himself, as by the end of By Royal Command, Secret Service types have already taken notice of Young Bond. It's time to move him forward in this timeline. If Higson wants to carry on, I suggest he jump ahead to the adventures of young adult Bond - his war years and early secret service work. He could even deal with his early double 0 years leading up to Casino Royale. Fleming introduced Bond as an experienced early 30ish Double O in his prime so there is lots of room to chronicle Bond's younger, maybe brasher Double 0 days.
    Considering what a formidable and mature beyond-his-years agent Bond is (just look at his Young Bond heroics at age 13-15) it is quite conceivable that Bond would be an early to mid-twenties Double O agent. Lots of potential for good stories here, in the Fleming timeline.
    Actually just skipping ahead to Bond becoming a very young Double O would be what I would like to see. Bond as a young Double O agent I think would be very interesting and his post-war growth leading up to Royale.
  • BounineBounine
    Posts: 2,598
    I agree to a point. There shouldn't be any more novels written about our hero as someone in his early teens. Bond's early years and secret service work would be fascinating, as it is in Pearson's biography of Bond, but I would FIRST like Higson to write about Bond's war years when he is in his twenties.

    I certainly hope IFP will ask him if they haven't already!
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    @SimG

    Welcome aboard.... i may not be as regular as most regulars on these boards - but nonetheless, a welcome to you indeed...

    I can't rightly comment on your father's work, considering that I really have never read them yet.... I had a few of them that I had actually found in the garage of my old house, "For Special Services", "Role Of Honour" and "Nobody Lives Forever" - i guess someone before me was a Bond fan (but failed to tell me)... i never got around to reading them, because as a young man, eyes tend to drift away from books - to other things ;) lol......

    but seeing as they are being reprinted, I will most certainly add them to my growing collection.......... my only gripe is that i wish they hired a better artist to design the covers lol - but that opinion is coming from an angry graphic artist lol (myself).... i actually used some of your father's titles as movie poster ideas - feel free to check them out here...

    http://www.mi6community.com/index.php?p=/discussion/182/haserots-personal-bond-fan-art...-updated-61611#Item_30

    again, welcome.... and don't worry about "the select few" here..... since i've been a part of MI6 i've been impressed with how civil these boards are, and how well the admins do to keep it that way..
  • UlyssesGamma_HoseUlyssesGamma_Hose
    Posts: 73
    I've only read one and a half so far (Win, Lose or Die and No One Lives For Ever respectively) and I must say Gardner has one of the most readable styles I've ever come across. You pick it up and before you know it you've read twenty pages.
  • BentleyBentley
    Posts: 267
    saunders wrote:
    I have always held the opinion that the quality of John Gardner's Bond novels started fairly well but about half way through his tenure they began to decline rapidly. Putting them in a ranking order has more or less confirmed my suspicions that for me at least this tends to be the case, but how would you rank them?

    1. Licence Renewed
    2. For Special Services
    3. Nobody Lives Forever
    4. Role Of Honour
    5. No Deals Mr Bond
    6. Win Lose or Die
    7. Scorpius
    8. Seafire
    9. Death Is Forever
    10. The Man From Barbarossa
    11. Icebreaker
    12. Brokenclaw
    13. Never Send Flowers
    14. Cold (Cold Fall)

    Fellow Agents,
    I think the good spy Saunders has this the top five nailed and frankly, after this, the rest are all very average and ranking them is pretty futile.
    Unfortunately, I think the deterioration in quality could well be explained by the late, great John Gardner's fight with Oesophageal cancer.
    He developed the illness whilst living in the US and fought a brave battle over a number of years eventually beating it. Unfortunately, treatment costs damn nearly bankrupted him and he was obliged to return to the UK and live in reduced circumstances.
    I think this may explain him continuing with Bond when he should probably have stopped.
    He was a lovely man and a great writer. His best works were not the Bond books but rather the "Moriarty" series, the "Oakes" books and the fabulous "Kruger" novels.
    Regards,
    Bentley.



  • chrisMchrisM
    Posts: 59
    Didnt enjoy many of Gardner's Bond books, Licence Renewed was good and For Special Services too then I thought they went down from there, bit like Benson's books too started strong then became literary versions of Brosnan's movies rather than being in the vein of the literary Bond
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    I now have Gardner's first five, and I'm ready to read.

    SANY6718_zps5ed7977f.jpg

    So, where one should stop, in other words, what is his first 'bad' novel, because I want to read up to but not including that, and stop there.
    Opinions?
  • offtheradarofftheradar
    Posts: 80
    Thanks Saunders.

  • 007InVT007InVT Classified
    Posts: 893
    chrisisall wrote:
    I now have Gardner's first five, and I'm ready to read.

    SANY6718_zps5ed7977f.jpg

    So, where one should stop, in other words, what is his first 'bad' novel, because I want to read up to but not including that, and stop there.
    Opinions?

    Sounds like Scorpius is the last good one to read.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    007InVT wrote:
    Sounds like Scorpius is the last good one to read.

    I also just got No Deals, Mr. Bond. Might stop there; might go further, who knows.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,264
    007InVT wrote:
    chrisisall wrote:
    I now have Gardner's first five, and I'm ready to read.

    SANY6718_zps5ed7977f.jpg

    So, where one should stop, in other words, what is his first 'bad' novel, because I want to read up to but not including that, and stop there.
    Opinions?

    Sounds like Scorpius is the last good one to read.

    Heresy and Treason!

    Never Send Flowers is one of the best!
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    007InVT wrote:
    chrisisall wrote:
    I now have Gardner's first five, and I'm ready to read.

    SANY6718_zps5ed7977f.jpg

    So, where one should stop, in other words, what is his first 'bad' novel, because I want to read up to but not including that, and stop there.
    Opinions?

    Sounds like Scorpius is the last good one to read.

    I would go as far as Win, Lose or Die. From Brokenclaw onwards they do start to drop off pretty badly although The Man From Barbarossa and Death Is Forever have some interesting moments.

    Never Send Flowers, Seafire and Cold are not up to much though and really only for completists.

    All better than Faulks though.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    TheWizardOfIce wrote:
    I would go as far as Win, Lose or Die.
    I will undoubtably take your advice on this if I like NDMB. :)>-
  • LeighBurneLeighBurne
    edited June 2013 Posts: 57
    I've just picked up the first eight Gardner novels (up to and including Win, Lose or Die) as the consensus seems to be that they are the best (even if a couple in there aren't so great, but I want to read them in order).

    As an aside, does anyone care to rank his two film novelizations? How do they rate in comparison to his original works?
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,264
    TheWizardOfIce wrote:
    007InVT wrote:
    chrisisall wrote:
    I now have Gardner's first five, and I'm ready to read.

    SANY6718_zps5ed7977f.jpg

    So, where one should stop, in other words, what is his first 'bad' novel, because I want to read up to but not including that, and stop there.
    Opinions?

    Sounds like Scorpius is the last good one to read.

    I would go as far as Win, Lose or Die. From Brokenclaw onwards they do start to drop off pretty badly although The Man From Barbarossa and Death Is Forever have some interesting moments.

    Never Send Flowers, Seafire and Cold are not up to much though and really only for completists.

    All better than Faulks though.

    Never Send Flowers not up to much?! You can't mean it @TheWizardOfIce! It's one of JG's best from his later Bond novels of the 1990s in my book.
  • 007InVT007InVT Classified
    Posts: 893
    timmer wrote:
    I enjoyed all his books but I can't really rank them as there was a sameness to them.

    I would rank No Deals Mr Bond as one of my favourites and maybe the first two as well.
    Bond is particularly dangerous in NDMB.

    I agree though that the earlier ones were the best. Maybe books 1 through 8 and then they kind of leveled off.

    Reading NDMB now. Hope to have it finished end of the weekend and then onto Never Send Flowers.
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