SPECTRE: TOP 5 elements "SPECTRE" must have to tackle all criticism that surrounded "SKYFALL"

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  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Samuel001 wrote:
    @SirHenryLeeChaChing you are forgetting as @Perdogg has said before, Logan will turn Bond into a comic strip/cartoon character. He's already had his chance and blown it! Next please.

    Perdogg knows.

    Stop arguing SirHenry and take heed of the soothsayer in our midst. You might just learn something!!

    You're right Wiz, I should probably be bitch slapped for thinking otherwise ;)

    Oh hail the mighty Perdogg, seer of all things to come ^:)^

    Now you're just being facetious. I was deadly serious!!!
  • edited September 2013 Posts: 6,396
    Perdogg wrote:

    Yes yes, read that article the last time. Hollywood is unoriginal. Shock. Horror. Blah, blah, blah. No need to keep re-posting it just to try to make your point.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Perdogg wrote:

    Yes yes, read that article the last time. Hollywood is unoriginal. Shock. Horror. Blah, blah, blah. No need to keep re-posting it just to try to make your point.

    Its satire Willy old boy dont you see?

    By hammering home the same point Perdogg is 'sartorising' Hollywood's own repetitiveness.

    Hes the new David Frost! (RIP)
  • He's a 'sartorist' Wiz. More David Reeves than David Frost ;-)
  • edited September 2013 Posts: 686
    Perdogg wrote:

    Yes yes, read that article the last time. Hollywood is unoriginal. Shock. Horror. Blah, blah, blah. No need to keep re-posting it just to try to make your point.

    Its satire Willy old boy dont you see?

    By hammering home the same point Perdogg is 'sartorising' Hollywood's own repetitiveness.

    Hes the new David Frost! (RIP)

    :))

    I think people are missing my point. I want them to do better because I love Bond novels, not because I am trying to put anyone down.
  • I get that, but we're nearly fresh out of more than bits and pieces. You can argue for some screenplays being built up out of some of them, but the main plots have been used up and we can't exactly dig up and resurrect Fleming. Something has to give. And Barb has said when they have doubts they always go back to Fleming's ideals when they make sense in the modern world. And the modern world it is.

    At least they haven't stopped Bond from using assault weapons ;)



  • 1. brutal, realistic hand-to-hand/close-range combat
    2. more important bond girl
    3. a sleeker 2-door car
    4. more coherent and realistic plot (maybe they could continue QoS plot)
    5. leiter getting more involved
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    edited September 2013 Posts: 40,976
    1. brutal, realistic hand-to-hand/close-range combat
    2. more important bond girl
    3. a sleeker 2-door car
    4. more coherent and realistic plot (maybe they could continue QoS plot)
    5. leiter getting more involved

    I definitely miss the brutal hand-to-hand combat from CR and QoS (Bond vs. Slate, I'm looking at you), but even though I'm one of the biggest QoS fans out there, I don't think 'coherent and realistic plot' can necessarily be attached to QoS. The plot was incredibly dodgy and confusing at times.

    I thought CR had both the coherence and realism in its plot: gamble on stocks that you have control over (like destroying the plane in Miami) to make money to work with terrorists.
  • Creasy47 wrote:
    1. brutal, realistic hand-to-hand/close-range combat
    2. more important bond girl
    3. a sleeker 2-door car
    4. more coherent and realistic plot (maybe they could continue QoS plot)
    5. leiter getting more involved

    I definitely miss the brutal hand-to-hand combat from CR and QoS (Bond vs. Slate, I'm looking at you), but even though I'm one of the biggest QoS fans out there, I don't think 'coherent and realistic plot' can necessarily be attached to QoS. The plot was incredibly dodgy and confusing at times.

    I thought CR had both the coherence and realism in its plot: gamble on stocks that you have control over (like destroying the plane in Miami) to make money to work with terrorists.

    good to know someone else misses hand to hand combat. on QoS, i was referring to the conniving with a dictator part and not the treatment of Forster; i should have made that clear. Stock manipulators in the real world use legal loopholes or lobbying instead of violence so CR is not that realistic, I guess.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    @jason_bourne, I mean realistic as in possible, in terms of CR. Isn't it? Bet against a market that you "know" will drop because you have a hand in it seems pretty plausible to me.

    And yes, many hated the Bourne-style fighting, but I thought it really added to Craig's brutality, and it was a shame to see such fighting disappear in SF.
  • Creasy47 wrote:
    @jason_bourne,

    And yes, many hated the Bourne-style fighting, but I thought it really added to Craig's brutality, and it was a shame to see such fighting disappear in SF.

    i also don't get why people hate the rough and dirty fighting style. Aside from it suits Craig's face and appeal, it's really fun to see Bond's dark side in action. He is a blunt instrument after all.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    edited September 2013 Posts: 11,139
    I don't think people hated the style of fighting. What they hated was the way it was shot and edited.
  • ^ I really hope Mendes will do a brutal mano-a-mano. But I can't imagine how he will do it considering how beautiful and cinematics his shots are.
  • Upcoming week I'm going to re-count the TOP 5's that have been posted so far :-). Perhaps Blofeld will be on top again ;-)?
  • edited November 2013 Posts: 11,119
    So, here is the list of 'Most frequent mentionings of aspects/elements that could be improved for Bond 24' as of November 18th 2013:

    29 MENTIONINGS -> 'GUNBARREL BACK AT THE START'
    18 mentionings --> 'Return of more psychotic Ernst Stavro Blofeld (Christoph Waltz?)'
    17 mentionings --> 'James Bond in the snow/Ski scenes'
    17 mentionings --> 'Bond bedding a real Bond-girl in the end'
    16 mentionings --> 'Simple, plain mission briefing in M's office'
    16 mentionings --> 'Better memorable music score/No Thomas Newman'
    13 mentionings --> 'Larger role for Felix Leiter'
    09 mentionings --> 'Time to soak up the cultures of escapist locations, smarter use of it'
    09 mentionings --> 'Better fist fights'
    08 mentionings --> 'Memorable henchman/henchwoman (Tilda Swinton?)'
    ====================================================
    07 mentionings --> 'Return of crime syndicate QUANTUM'
    06 mentionings --> 'Bring in Formula One racing, new kind of carchase ('Rush')'
    06 mentionings --> 'More clever, less brutal action'
    05 mentionings --> 'Return of crime syndicate S.P.E.C.T.R.E.'
    05 mentionings --> 'Better screenplay/more effective one-liners for Bond'
    05 mentionings --> 'A straightforward grand escapist Bond adventure'
    05 mentionings --> 'More funny Q-gadgets'
    04 mentionings --> 'Return of Barry's 007 theme'
    04 mentionings --> 'Lush, escapist production design'
    03 mentionings --> 'Bring back SKYFALL-crew, including director Sam Mendes'
    03 mentionings --> 'Commander James Bond 007 in naval uniform'
    03 mentionings --> 'Wodka Martini, shaken......not stirred!'
    03 mentionings --> 'More fun & escapism!'
    02 mentionings --> 'Bring in new/previous crew, including director Martin Campbell'
    02 mentionings --> 'Less CGI that is too obvious'
    02 mentionings --> 'Big overblown finale in the end'
    02 mentionings --> 'A dinner with the villain (Dr.No/Kamal Khan)'
    02 mentionings --> 'Better use of Monty Norman's James Bond Theme'
    02 mentionings --> 'Different Bond-actor/replace Daniel Craig'
    02 mentionings --> 'Yes! Bring back the Aston Martin or another 2-door car'

    01 mentionings --> 'A Gala Brandt story arc'
    01 mentionings --> 'A villain-/ally-mixup, like in FYEO'
    01 mentionings --> 'Different cinematography/replace Roger Deakins'
    01 mentionings --> 'Let Daniel Craig carry the film completely/less ensemble cast'
    01 mentionings --> 'More screentime for Bond vs. villain'
    01 mentionings --> 'Use of Fleming's novels for inspiration, like YOLT'
    01 mentionings --> 'No Aston Martin-first time since TWINE'
    01 mentionings --> 'Re-visiting Tracy's and/or Vesper's grave'
    01 mentionings --> 'A well executed escape scene'
    01 mentionings --> 'More espionage thriller-style'
    01 mentionings --> 'Beardless Daniel Craig'
    01 mentionings --> 'Flashbacks of Judi Dench'
    01 mentionings --> 'A Fleming title/chaptertitle for Bond 24 film title'
    01 mentionings --> 'Bond playing Texas Hold'Em or Chemin de Fer / Baccarat'
    01 mentionings --> 'Rock themed song'
    01 mentionings --> 'Make Bond trend-setting again, not trend-follower (stop Nolan-esque)'
    01 mentionings --> 'Avoid the usual disappointing 'third-act''
    01 mentionings --> 'More important Bond-girl'
  • Any thoughts on the list so far?
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    Unless I'm absolutely misreading the title of the thread, how is the return of Blofeld one of the top things 'Bond 24' must have to tackle SF criticism? I don't recall a single instance of anyone criticizing SF for not having Blofeld.
  • Creasy47 wrote:
    Unless I'm absolutely misreading the title of the thread, how is the return of Blofeld one of the top things 'Bond 24' must have to tackle SF criticism? I don't recall a single instance of anyone criticizing SF for not having Blofeld.

    Don't ask me :-). I already gave my TOP 5 in the opening post. Perhaps you have an idea of what could have been improved in 'Skyfall' and should be taken into account for Bond 24? There are also more 'nuanced' examples in the list, like for instance 'improve the screenplay/plot' for Bond 24.

    Anyway, that Blofeld is so high on the list.....well, perhaps it's because it has been discussed a lot?
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    It's most certainly because it's been discussed a lot, I just don't see how that fits in with SF criticism whatsoever.
  • I personally think the original Blofeld was way more smart with his extortion and terrorism schemes. Frankly, he had an entire syndicate to back him up. It made him a worthy adversary of MI6.

    With Silva I had a bit too much the idea that he was merely out on revenge and nothing more. I also thought Silva was more or less the result of the increasing popularity of Batman and The Joker. The way Silva was creating havoc -bombing MI6, killing so many people, entering the committe room, policemen operating- reminded me a bit too much of The Joker. Hence certain flaws in the plot/storyline and certain absence of originality.

    We Bond fans take great pride in continuity, realism of the plot and storyline. When even more questions arise because of Silva's actions, then you could say Silva's original character inherently and inevitably created certain flaws as well.

    Blofeld however is a product of Ian Fleming. Not of the creator of Batman. He's smarter, more intellectual and doesn't just leave a trail of death and destruction. Blofeld in a way is a secret as MI6. That's why he appeared in so many Bond novels. And that's why I think he can bring back or even maintain some structure and continuity in the Bond franchise.

    Blofeld is the arch nemesis of the entire Bond franchise. And all we did so far was belittling him.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited November 2013 Posts: 28,694
    I still fail to see the "Silva is like Joker" arguments, though it's probably because I have studied the Joker and am familiar with the character as opposed to more casual viewers.
    We Bond fans take great pride in continuity, realism of the plot and storyline. When even more questions arise because of Silva's actions, then you could say Silva's original character inherently and inevitably created certain flaws as well.

    If you are looking for realistic storylines, I fear you have come to the wrong franchise.
  • Posts: 15,124
    I think there are similarities between SF and TDK, but not really between Silva and the Joker. Silva's crusade against M is very personal and motivated by revenge and a twisted sense of entitlement, while the Joker is motivated by selfless, fanatical nihilism. Okay, so both are mad, but even their madness is different.
  • M_BaljeM_Balje Amsterdam, Netherlands
    edited November 2013 Posts: 4,520
    What Silva did underground, that stupid laugh/to much relax moot of him, that be a bit TDK Joker. Silva is mix of Alec, Eliot Carver and the Joker and behind glass that already happend with the villian from
    Nikita.

    The next villian i think be mix of elements from Silva, Carver and Green/Gustav Graves if not Green him self.
  • Ludovico wrote:
    I think there are similarities between SF and TDK, but not really between Silva and the Joker. Silva's crusade against M is very personal and motivated by revenge and a twisted sense of entitlement, while the Joker is motivated by selfless, fanatical nihilism. Okay, so both are mad, but even their madness is different.

    1A) The Joker's mutilated mouth......has a story behind it of pain and emotional damage.
    1B) Silva's mutilated mouth......has a story behind it of pain and emotional damage.

    2A) The Joker basically uses the entire maffia of Gotham City as his henchmen.
    2B) Silva basically uses the entire police corps as his own henchmen (Something previous Bond villains never achieved).

    3A) The Joker is captured, taken into prison and plays a psychotic game with Batman.
    3B) Silva is captured, taken into prison and plays a psychotic game with 'M'.

    4A) The Joker escapes the same prison with help of his 'Maffia of Gotham henchmen' and a bom that is triggered by telephone.
    4B) Silva escapes the same prison with help of his 'Police of London henchmen' and uses a bom that is triggered by telephone as well.

    5A) Batman's love interest Rachel is tragically killed in a psychotic game in which Batman is forced in chosing to save one of two lives - Harvey or Rachel.
    5B) Bond's love interest Severine is tragically killed in a psychotic game of William Tell in which Bond has almost no chance to save her.

    6A) It is obvious that The Joker is creating havoc on the city of Gotham City. His nasty games in which the protagnist needs to chose between one of two 'inhuman choices' results in terrorism that is beyond comprehension.
    6B) It is obvious that Silva is creating havoc on the city of London. His nasty games that result in two serious terrorist attacks that seriously compromise MI6. Silva finds solace in creating these situations where the protagonist is suffereing mentally.

    I think it's fairly obvious that Christopher Nolan and Sam Mendes inspired each other (Nolan referes to Bond several times. Mendes refers to TDK several times.)
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited November 2013 Posts: 28,694
    Ludovico wrote:
    I think there are similarities between SF and TDK, but not really between Silva and the Joker. Silva's crusade against M is very personal and motivated by revenge and a twisted sense of entitlement, while the Joker is motivated by selfless, fanatical nihilism. Okay, so both are mad, but even their madness is different.

    1A) The Joker's mutilated mouth......has a story behind it of pain and emotional damage.
    1B) Silva's mutilated mouth......has a story behind it of pain and emotional damage.

    2A) The Joker basically uses the entire maffia of Gotham City as his henchmen.
    2B) Silva basically uses the entire police corps as his own henchmen (Something previous Bond villains never achieved).

    3A) The Joker is captured, taken into prison and plays a psychotic game with Batman.
    3B) Silva is captured, taken into prison and plays a psychotic game with 'M'.

    4A) The Joker escapes the same prison with help of his 'Maffia of Gotham henchmen' and a bom that is triggered by telephone.
    4B) Silva escapes the same prison with help of his 'Police of London henchmen' and uses a bom that is triggered by telephone as well.

    5A) Batman's love interest Rachel is tragically killed in a psychotic game in which Batman is forced in chosing to save one of two lives - Harvey or Rachel.
    5B) Bond's love interest Severine is tragically killed in a psychotic game of William Tell in which Bond has almost no chance to save her.

    6A) It is obvious that The Joker is creating havoc on the city of Gotham City. His nasty games in which the protagnist needs to chose between one of two 'inhuman choices' results in terrorism that is beyond comprehension.
    6B) It is obvious that Silva is creating havoc on the city of London. His nasty games that result in two serious terrorist attacks that seriously compromise MI6. Silva finds solace in creating these situations where the protagonist is suffereing mentally.

    I think it's fairly obvious that Christopher Nolan and Sam Mendes inspired each other (Nolan referes to Bond several times. Mendes refers to TDK several times.)

    #1, we don't know why the Joker has his scars, so we can't make any concrete judgement on where they truly came from/how he received them.

    #2 Silva doesn't use the entire police force as his henchmen. It is likely that they took some policemen out and took their outfits away. Silva is not in any way shape of form in control of London's policemen.

    #3 Silva isn't in a prison, he's just held in the MI6 bunker. Still, I kind of get what you mean.

    #4 Joker doesn't need any help from the mafia to escape the prison, which he meant to be captured inside anyway. Silva doesn't use any of the policemen to help him escape, he just hacks his way to safety. All his boys give him is a uniform after he already escaped.

    #5 Not even remotely the same two things. Plus, Bruce knew and cared for Rachel almost his entire life, while Bond and Severine barely know jack about each other and have only met for a short time before she is killed.

    #6 What two "inhuman choices" doesn't Batman have to choose in TDK? I'm lost there...

    Films are a lot like art, poetry, fiction, etc. You can make connections that aren't there and interpret things in several different ways. Only the filmmakers know what influences they took inspiration from.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7, I can only assume it's the bit where Joker orders Coleman Reese killed, or else he will blow up a hospital? I'm not sure, either.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited November 2013 Posts: 28,694
    Creasy47 wrote:
    @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7, I can only assume it's the bit where Joker orders Coleman Reese killed, or else he will blow up a hospital? I'm not sure, either.
    But that wasn't a challenge to Batman or a choice he had to make, it was Joker's challenge to the people of Gotham. I am just confused by the wording, and since Joker tries to challenge so many values and cause so much chaos in the film, it's hard to narrow it down to what @Gustav_Graves means.

    Plus, we could play the "Joker and Silva both meant to be captured" game all day, but so does every big blockbuster villain these days. It has become old hat.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    Well, he could technically make the choice: kill Coleman to avoid having his identity revealed, or risk killing tons of innocents at a hospital. Of course, the former completely goes against Batman's beliefs, and I'm not justifying the "inhuman choices" that Gustav speaks of, I was merely making a guess, apologies. I've heard these TDK/SF comparisons tons of times, I just never watch SF and think of TDK.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Creasy47 wrote:
    Well, he could technically make the choice: kill Coleman to avoid having his identity revealed, or risk killing tons of innocents at a hospital. Of course, the former completely goes against Batman's beliefs, and I'm not justifying the "inhuman choices" that Gustav speaks of, I was merely making a guess, apologies. I've heard these TDK/SF comparisons tons of times, I just never watch SF and think of TDK.

    Well, I doubt anyone would believe Reese, as Fox doesn't, and knowing Joker he'd have Reese get killed and blow up the hospital anyway. We'll just have to wait for Gustav's response...
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